Where is the Great Multitude from Rev 7:13,14

[David Lamb]

The Lord taking His people to heaven, is never stated in the Bible, it is s false teaching and will never happen.

I am not arguing for pre-Tribulation rapture, or any particular kind of rapture (in the sense of all Christians being removed from the earth, leaving all the non-Christians behind). However, I don't agree with you that the Lord taking His people to heaven is never stated in the bible. Paul wrote:

“14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive [and] remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.” (1Th 4:14-17 NKJV)

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

And a rapture of the Church to heaven, is surely not stated in Revelation 4:1.

Here is how the Lord will bless His Christian peoples, as they live in peace and prosperity in all of the holy Land:

Jeremiah 33:6-14 See this Land: it lies in ruins, inhabited by neither man or animals. Yet in this place, once more will be heard the sounds of joy and happiness, for I will restore the fortunes of My Land and people. The days are coming, says the Lord, when I shall bestow on Judah and Israel all the blessings I have promised to them.

Isaiah 30:18 The Lord is waiting to show you His favour. He yearns to have pity on you, for the Lord is full of justice. Happy are you who wait on Him.

Isaiah 54:4-10... For a passing moment I forsook you, but with tender affection I shall bring you home again....My covenant promising peace will not be shaken.

Hosea 14:4-7 I shall heal My peoples apostasy and love them freely, for My anger is turned away from them. I shall be as dew to Israel that they may flower and put forth shoots. I am the tree that shelters you; your prosperity comes from Me.

Isaiah 52:6 On that Day My people will know My name and know that it is the Lord who speaks, here I am.

Ezekiel 34:22-31 Therefore, I shall save My flock and they will be ravaged no more....... You are the flock that I feed and I am your God.

Isaiah 65:24=25 Even before My people call to Me, I shall answer. Neither hurt nor harm will be done in all of My holy Land.

Isaiah 46:4 Till you grow old, I am the Lord and when white hairs come, I will carry you still. I have made you and I shall uphold you. I shall carry you away to safety.

Psalm 105:43-44 The Lord led out His people in triumph. He gave them lands of the heathen nations for their possession.

Isaiah 65:20-23 My people will build and plant for themselves, they will enjoy the fruit of their labour. They will be as long lived as a tree.

Ezekiel 36:8-12 Now you: Land of Israel, grow your plants and bear fruit for the homecoming of My people is near. The whole House of Israel will come, very many people and you will be their possession.

Psalm 147:2-3 The Lord gathers His scattered people, He heals their broken spirit and binds their wounds. He rebuilds Jerusalem.

Joel 3:18 When that Day comes the Land will be well watered and productive.

Isaiah 32:15-20 The Spirit from on high will come upon the people, then the Land will become a well watered beautiful garden; a tranquil country, its people living in peace and security.

Romans 8:18 For I consider that the sufferings of the present times are not worth comparing with the glory that is going to be revealed to us.

Psalm 37:29 The righteous will possess the Land and will live there forever.
Ref: REB. Some verses abridged

Believe these scriptures, not a theory which has no verses to support it.

Keras, you cited irrelevant verses that are completely out-of-context.

Rev 4:1 is a future event. We know this because apostle John never left the island of Patmos during his vision of Revelation. He was always on the island of Patmos when seeing and hearing everything in his vision that was shown to him by one angel. John attests to this in Rev 22:8. It is therefore in the Bible that Rev 4:1 is a future event, being the pre-Trib rapture of the Church.

Let's look at Rev 4:1 and compare it to relevant verses. Rev 4:1 (ESV): After this I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven! And the first voice, which I had heard speaking to me like a trumpet, said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.”

1 Th 4:16 (ESV): For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

1 Th 4:16's "cry of command" and "voice of an archangel" and "trumpet of God" are about Jesus' tremendous trumpet voice. Both verses cite it. They also both cite a cry of command that is richly spelled out in Rev 4:1, "Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this."

Rev 4:1 is the pre-Trib rapture of the Church because Jesus promised in Rev 3:10, "I will keep you from the hour of trial ..."

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

I am not arguing for pre-Tribulation rapture, or any particular kind of rapture (in the sense of all Christians being removed from the earth, leaving all the non-Christians behind). However, I don't agree with you that the Lord taking His people to heaven is never stated in the bible. Paul wrote:

“14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive [and] remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.” (1Th 4:14-17 NKJV)

Mr. Lamb:

Rev 4:1 is a future event. We know this because apostle John never left the island of Patmos during his vision of Revelation. He was always on the island of Patmos when seeing and hearing everything in his vision that was shown to him by one angel. John attests to this in Rev 22:8. It is therefore in the Bible that Rev 4:1 is a future event, being the pre-Trib rapture of the Church.

Let's look at Rev 4:1 and compare it to relevant verses. Rev 4:1 (ESV): After this I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven! And the first voice, which I had heard speaking to me like a trumpet, said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.”

1 Th 4:16 (ESV): For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

1 Th 4:16's "cry of command" and "voice of an archangel" and "trumpet of God" are about Jesus' tremendous trumpet voice. Both verses cite it. They also both cite a cry of command that is richly spelled out in Rev 4:1, "Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this."

Rev 4:1 is the pre-Trib rapture of the Church because Jesus promised in Rev 3:10, "I will keep you from the hour of trial ..."

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Mr. SJ, here is the applicable definition for the English use of "keep from:" to prevent someone or something from doing something

Rev 3:10 is about keeping believers from entering the Trib.

Did you read everything I said? The same Greek words translated as "keep from" in Revelation 3:10 are used in John 17:15 and they are not used in the sense of preventing someone or something from doing something, but rather are used in the sense of being protected from someone or something. There is no need to be taken off of the earth in order to be protected from temptation and trials.

Here's Rev 3:10 (ESV): Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth.

In the above verse, Jesus cites "you" only as believers. He ends the verse by citing a different group: "those who dwell on the earth." He specified about "those who dwell on the earth" that only they will be tried in the hour of trial. Jesus was referring to the 21 judgments of God's wrath that will occur in the hour of trial, otherwise known as the Trib.

You are misinterpreting the verse. It's not talking about God's wrath, it's talking about temptation and tribulation for believers and being protected from giving in to that as long as we keep the faith and endure patiently.

In the context of the Trib, "those who dwell on the earth" are always unbelievers. Please see Rev 11:10 for a classic example, in the context of the Trib, of "those who dwell on the earth" as only being unbelievers.

You are saying this to make the verse say what you want it to say and you're also changing the definition of the Greek words "tereo ek" (keep from) to mean something entirely different than how they are used in John 17:15. You need to be more honest with scripture than this.

Therefore, what is meant in Rev 3:10 is we believers will be kept from entering the Trib, and only unbelievers will dwell on the earth and be tried by 21 judgments of God's wrath.

No, that is not what is meant in Revelation 3:10. Why would Jesus say that in that verse after previously talking about having to keep the faith and overcome? Your interpretation of Revelation 3:10 doesn't line up with the rest of Revelation 2 and 3 or with the rest of scripture.

So, where do we go if we don't enter the Trib? We are raptured to Heaven. Let me prove that.

You can't do that. Pre-trib is a false doctrine and falsehood can't be proven.

1 Th 1:10 is the first verse written about the pre-Trib rapture. Here's 1 Th 1:10 (ESV): and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

That is talking about the wrath that will occur on the day He comes again which Paul wrote about here as well:

1 Thessalonians 5:2 For you yourselves are fully aware that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 While people are saying, “There is peace and security,” then sudden destruction will come upon them as labor pains come upon a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.

Paul went on to say a little after that...

1 Thessalonians 5:9 9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,

We will be caught up just before the "sudden destruction" from those in spiritual darkness "will not escape" comes down on unbelievers.

Definitions of God's wrath are found in Ezekiel 14:21 (NLT): “Now this is what the Sovereign Lord says: How terrible it will be when all four of these dreadful punishments fall upon Jerusalem—war, famine, wild animals, and disease—destroying all her people and animals.

Rev 6:4 (the 2nd seal) is about wars that will suddenly break out all over the world. Here's Rev 6:4 (NLT): Then another horse appeared, a red one. Its rider was given a mighty sword and the authority to take peace from the earth. And there was war and slaughter everywhere.

Those wars and their tremendous cost of lives, represent God’s wrath at the beginning of the Trib. That's "the wrath to come" for the purpose of 1 Th 1:10, where “delivers us” relates to the second usage of “deliverance,” in the Bible. That second usage translates to “snatch away.” Therefore, 1 Th 1:10 is about our being “snatched away" just before God’s wrath comes in the Trib, in Rev 6:4.

No, the context of the wrath that we are delivered from is the wrath of the Lamb (Christ) that will come down on the day Christ returns, as Paul also referred to here:

2 Thessalonians 1:7 and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels 8 in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might, 10 when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed.

The furtherance of our being raptured to Heaven, is the sole purpose of Rev 4:1.

Revelation 4:1 has absolutely nothing to do with the rapture. It only involved John. You can't interpret scripture this way. You need to base your doctrine on clear scripture instead of trying to make verses like that about the rapture.

First, let's be certain that apostle John never left the island of Patmos during his vision of Revelation. In John's own words, it was just one angel who showed John everything he heard and saw in his vision of Revelation. That attestation by John is in Rev 22:8 (NLT): I, John, am the one who heard and saw all these things. And when I heard and saw them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed them to me.

Therefore, Rev 4:1 is a future event, being the pre-Trib rapture of the Church, straight to Heaven.

To associate that verse with a supposed pre-trib rapture is a huge stretch and not something I can't take seriously at all.

It is 1 Th 1:10 that snatches us away ("delivers us") before the "wrath to come" in the Trib, in conjunction with Rev 4:1, 1 Th 4:16-17 and 1 Cor 15:52.

Those are biblical facts concerning the pre-Trib rapture.

Please don't call your opinions facts. It doesn't help your case. Instead, it makes you look dishonest.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

I am not arguing for pre-Tribulation rapture, or any particular kind of rapture (in the sense of all Christians being removed from the earth, leaving all the non-Christians behind). However, I don't agree with you that the Lord taking His people to heaven is never stated in the bible. Paul wrote:

“14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive [and] remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.” (1Th 4:14-17 NKJV)

Where does that say anything about anyone being taken to heaven? It doesn't. It says we will meet Him "in the air", not in heaven.

 

[keras]

I am not arguing for pre-Tribulation rapture, or any particular kind of rapture (in the sense of all Christians being removed from the earth, leaving all the non-Christians behind). However, I don't agree with you that the Lord taking His people to heaven is never stated in the bible. Paul wrote:

“14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive [and] remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.” (1Th 4:14-17 NKJV)

Nowhere in this scripture, or anywhere else, does the Bible actually say the Christian Church will go to live in heaven.

We are told who it will be that Jesus will bring with Him at His glorious Return; The martyrs killed during the Great Trib, Revelation 20:4

Whan Jesus Returns, as 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 Prophesies, then those faithful people who remain alive, will rise to meet Him and will always be with the Lord; - in Jerusalem. Zechariah 14:4, Acts 1:11

 

[keras]

Keras, you cited irrelevant verses that are completely out-of-context.

Rev 4:1 is a future event.

You are the irrelevant and out of context' champion.
We have the Book of Revelation in our Bibles. John wrote it from the visions he saw in heaven, in the first Century.
You are wrong and hopelessly deceived.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

You are the irrelevant and out of context' champion.
We have the Book of Revelation in our Bibles. John wrote it from the visions he saw in heaven, in the first Century.
You are wrong and hopelessly deceived.

Rev 22:8 never mentions John leaving Patmos or going to Heaven. Therefore, you are misinterpreting Rev 22:8. One angel showed John all he saw in his vision, while on Patmos.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Did you read everything I said? The same Greek words translated as "keep from" in Revelation 3:10 are used in John 17:15 and they are not used in the sense of preventing someone or something from doing something, but rather are used in the sense of being protected from someone or something. There is no need to be taken off of the earth in order to be protected from temptation and trials.


You are misinterpreting the verse. It's not talking about God's wrath, it's talking about temptation and tribulation for believers and being protected from giving in to that as long as we keep the faith and endure patiently.


You are saying this to make the verse say what you want it to say and you're also changing the definition of the Greek words "tereo ek" (keep from) to mean something entirely different than how they are used in John 17:15. You need to be more honest with scripture than this.


No, that is not what is meant in Revelation 3:10. Why would Jesus say that in that verse after previously talking about having to keep the faith and overcome? Your interpretation of Revelation 3:10 doesn't line up with the rest of Revelation 2 and 3 or with the rest of scripture.


You can't do that. Pre-trib is a false doctrine and falsehood can't be proven.


That is talking about the wrath that will occur on the day He comes again which Paul wrote about here as well:

1 Thessalonians 5:2 For you yourselves are fully aware that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 While people are saying, “There is peace and security,” then sudden destruction will come upon them as labor pains come upon a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.

Paul went on to say a little after that...

1 Thessalonians 5:9 9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,

We will be caught up just before the "sudden destruction" from those in spiritual darkness "will not escape" comes down on unbelievers.


No, the context of the wrath that we are delivered from is the wrath of the Lamb (Christ) that will come down on the day Christ returns, as Paul also referred to here:

2 Thessalonians 1:7 and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels 8 in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might, 10 when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed.


Revelation 4:1 has absolutely nothing to do with the rapture. It only involved John. You can't interpret scripture this way. You need to base your doctrine on clear scripture instead of trying to make verses like that about the rapture.


To associate that verse with a supposed pre-trib rapture is a huge stretch and not something I can't take seriously at all.


Please don't call your opinions facts. It doesn't help your case. Instead, it makes you look dishonest.

There are at least two definitions to "keep from." One of them is the one I quoted: to prevent someone from engaging in or doing something. Attackers of the pre-Trib rapture ALWAYS omit applicable definitions. Attackers always pick another, non-applicable definition to the applicable context. The context in Rev 3:10 is that believers will be kept from entering the Trib, and only unbelievers will enter the Trib and be tried by the 21 judgments of God's wrath, otherwise known as the seven seals, seven trumpets and seven bowls. Therefore, the applicable definition of "keep from" in Rev 3:10 is to prevent someone from doing something, which, in the applicable context is believers will be prevented from entering the Trib. Jesus makes it crystal clear that only "those who dwell on the earth" will enter the Trib. Do you know that this phrase, "those who dwell on the earth" is used in the context of the Trib to only mean unbelievers? Here's one sample, Rev 11:10 (ESV): and those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them and make merry and exchange presents, because these two prophets had been a torment to those who dwell on the earth.

Rev 6:15-17 is the best evidence that only unbelievers enter the Trib. In verse 15 (ESV), "everyone" is the word used to represent everyone on the planet. In verses 15-16, everyone on the planet manifestly rejects Jesus Christ by their running in terror from an alleged sighting of Jesus. Those folks run in terror to hide in caves or seek to hide under rocks -- to hide from Jesus. That is the complete antithesis of how believers would react under the same circumstances. We would be OVERJOYED at Jesus being nearby, and we would therefore instantly run TO Him in worship and thanksgiving. Everyone in Rev 6:15-17 is therefore proven to be a certified unbeliever. That proves NO believers are on Earth in the Trib. We are not there in the 6th seal.

Let's look at Rev 6:4. That's the 2nd seal which causes wars to instantly occur all over the planet simultaneously. People on Earth are killing each other. Do you believe God would have believers indiscriminately murder other folks like that? We are not there in the 2nd seal. Believers do not enter the Trib.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

You are the irrelevant and out of context' champion.
We have the Book of Revelation in our Bibles. John wrote it from the visions he saw in heaven, in the first Century.
You are wrong and hopelessly deceived.

You state opinions, that are not backed up by Scripture.

Here's Rev 1:1-2 (ESV): The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants the things that must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, 2 who bore witness to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw.

Mr. Keras, where was John when the angel was sent to him?

In Rev 4 and beyond, John never says he's in Heaven. All he ever says is described solely as what he heard and saw in his supernatural vision of the future.

Rev 22:8 (ESV): I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed them to me,

Rev 22:8 proves that all John heard and saw was through a supernatural vision of the future, made possible by one angel sent from God.

 

[keras]

You state opinions, that are not backed up by Scripture.

Here's Rev 1:1-2 (ESV): The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants the things that must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, 2 who bore witness to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw.

Mr. Keras, where was John when the angel was sent to him?

In Rev 4 and beyond, John never says he's in Heaven. All he ever says is described solely as what he heard and saw in his supernatural vision of the future.

Rev 22:8 (ESV): I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed them to me,

Rev 22:8 proves that all John heard and saw was through a supernatural vision of the future, made possible by one angel sent from God.

All this waffle and speculative rubbish, does nothing for your favourite belief. - a rapture to heaven of the Church.
That idea is totally refuted and is shown to be a false teaching, by the fact of there being no scriptural support for a rapture removal from the earth for anyone.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

All this waffle and speculative rubbish, does nothing for your favourite belief. - a rapture to heaven of the Church.
That idea is totally refuted and is shown to be a false teaching, by the fact of there being no scriptural support for a rapture removal from the earth for anyone.

Keras, I proved that apostle John never went to Heaven during his vision of Revelation, and you won't admit you're wrong. You have not proven me wrong. Rev 1:1-2 and Rev 22:8 thoroughly prove John was on the island of Patmos throughout his vision of Revelation.

Whether you admit it or not, Rev 4:1 is the future rapture of the Church, straight to Heaven.

 

[keras]

Keras, I proved that apostle John never went to Heaven during his vision of Revelation, and you won't admit you're wrong. You have not proven me wrong. Rev 1:1-2 and Rev 22:8 thoroughly prove John was on the island of Patmos throughout his vision of Revelation.

Probably his body was still on Patmos, while his Spirit received the vision of Revelation.
That still has nothing to do with and is no support for; your fanciful idea of a rapture of the Church to heaven.

Whether you admit it or not, Rev 4:1 is the future rapture of the Church, straight to Heaven.

You will have a lot to answer for when you stand before God in Judgment.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Probably his body was still on Patmos, while his Spirit received the vision of Revelation.
That still has nothing to do with and is no support for; your fanciful idea of a rapture of the Church to heaven.

You will have a lot to answer for when you stand before God in Judgment.

Oh, really?

You dodge questions that prove you wrong. Here's proof:

Question: Where was John when the angel was sent to him?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

There are at least two definitions to "keep from." One of them is the one I quoted: to prevent someone from engaging in or doing something. Attackers of the pre-Trib rapture ALWAYS omit applicable definitions.

Why should I take your word for this? Where is the evidence to back up what you're saying? Why would we ever need to be taken off of the earth to avoid temptations and trials when Christians have been enduring that for almost 2,000 years now?

The only time we will need to be taken off of the earth is just before this happens on the day Jesus comes again:

1 Thessalonians 5:2 for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare. 11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.

Attackers always pick another, non-applicable definition to the applicable context.

LOL at "Attackers". Are you always this overly dramatic?

The context in Rev 3:10 is that believers will be kept from entering the Trib, and only unbelievers will enter the Trib and be tried by the 21 judgments of God's wrath, otherwise known as the seven seals, seven trumpets and seven bowls.

There is no indication in that verse that it's talking about God's wrath. It's talking about being tried by persecution and temptation.

Revelation 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Why would Jesus tell the people of the church in Philadelphia that He would taken them off the earth to avoid "the hour of temptation" after previously telling the people of the church in Smyrna this:

Revelation 2:10 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive; 9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan. 10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life. 11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Jesus wants us to patiently endure and to overcome and keep our faith during trials and tribulations, not to expect to be taken off of the earth to avoid trouble.

John 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

Therefore, the applicable definition of "keep from" in Rev 3:10 is to prevent someone from doing something, which, in the applicable context is believers will be prevented from entering the Trib.

No, it isn't. You are saying that to support your doctrine, but that understanding does not line up with the rest of Revelation 2 and 3 and the rest of scripture.

Jesus makes it crystal clear that only "those who dwell on the earth" will enter the Trib. Do you know that this phrase, "those who dwell on the earth" is used in the context of the Trib to only mean unbelievers?

That doesn't matter. Read this...

Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

This shows that the "fellowservants" of those who have died are still on the earth while being persecuted by "those who dwell on the earth" as of the time of the fifth seal. So, this passage clearly shows that your claim is wrong and that your understanding of the seals, trumpets and vials is wrong.

Rev 6:15-17 is the best evidence that only unbelievers enter the Trib.

If that's the best evidence you have, then you have very little to no evidence to support your view because that passage is talking about the wrath of Christ that comes down on the day He returns "after the tribulation of those days". Compare Revelation 6:12-17 to this:

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The similarities between Revelation 6:12-14 and Matthew 24:29 are obvious, so the timing of the sixth seal is "immediately after the tribulation of those days" and right after that is when Jesus returns and His wrath comes down on all of His enemies.

In verse 15 (ESV), "everyone" is the word used to represent everyone on the planet. In verses 15-16, everyone on the planet manifestly rejects Jesus Christ by their running in terror from an alleged sighting of Jesus. Those folks run in terror to hide in caves or seek to hide under rocks -- to hide from Jesus. That is the complete antithesis of how believers would react under the same circumstances. We would be OVERJOYED at Jesus being nearby, and we would therefore instantly run TO Him in worship and thanksgiving. Everyone in Rev 6:15-17 is therefore proven to be a certified unbeliever. That proves NO believers are on Earth in the Trib. We are not there in the 6th seal.

You are ignorant about what others believe, so you need to educate yourself. I believe Jesus returns at that point because it lines up with Matthew 24:29-31, so that is when the rapture occurs. Those left behind on the earth fearing for their lives will all be killed at that point.

2 Thessalonians 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Notice that He will take vengeance on all of His enemies on the same day that He comes "to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe" which is an obvious reference to the rapture when His saints are gathered to Him.

Let's look at Rev 6:4. That's the 2nd seal which causes wars to instantly occur all over the planet simultaneously. People on Earth are killing each other. Do you believe God would have believers indiscriminately murder other folks like that? We are not there in the 2nd seal. Believers do not enter the Trib.

It's obviously not talking about believers doing that. This is not evidence for a pre-trib rapture whatsoever. As of the fifth seal, believers are still here because it talks about them as "fellowservants" of the dead in Christ who are still on the earth at that point. How can you not take Rev 6:9-11 into account when interpreting Rev 6:4? You need to take all scripture into account here and not just cherry pick certain scriptures.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Why should I take your word for this? Where is the evidence to back up what you're saying? Why would we ever need to be taken off of the earth to avoid temptations and trials when Christians have been enduring that for almost 2,000 years now?

The only time we will need to be taken off of the earth is just before this happens on the day Jesus comes again:

1 Thessalonians 5:2 for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare. 11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.


LOL at "Attackers". Are you always this overly dramatic?


There is no indication in that verse that it's talking about God's wrath. It's talking about being tried by persecution and temptation.

Revelation 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Why would Jesus tell the people of the church in Philadelphia that He would taken them off the earth to avoid "the hour of temptation" after previously telling the people of the church in Smyrna this:

Revelation 2:10 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive; 9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan. 10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life. 11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Jesus wants us to patiently endure and to overcome and keep our faith during trials and tribulations, not to expect to be taken off of the earth to avoid trouble.

John 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.


No, it isn't. You are saying that to support your doctrine, but that understanding does not line up with the rest of Revelation 2 and 3 and the rest of scripture.


That doesn't matter. Read this...

Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

This shows that the "fellowservants" of those who have died are still on the earth while being persecuted by "those who dwell on the earth" as of the time of the fifth seal. So, this passage clearly shows that your claim is wrong and that your understanding of the seals, trumpets and vials is wrong.


If that's the best evidence you have, then you have very little to no evidence to support your view because that passage is talking about the wrath of Christ that comes down on the day He returns "after the tribulation of those days". Compare Revelation 6:12-17 to this:

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The similarities between Revelation 6:12-14 and Matthew 24:29 are obvious, so the timing of the sixth seal is "immediately after the tribulation of those days" and right after that is when Jesus returns and His wrath comes down on all of His enemies.


You are ignorant about what others believe, so you need to educate yourself. I believe Jesus returns at that point because it lines up with Matthew 24:29-31, so that is when the rapture occurs. Those left behind on the earth fearing for their lives will all be killed at that point.

2 Thessalonians 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Notice that He will take vengeance on all of His enemies on the same day that He comes "to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe" which is an obvious reference to the rapture when His saints are gathered to Him.


It's obviously not talking about believers doing that. This is not evidence for a pre-trib rapture whatsoever. As of the fifth seal, believers are still here because it talks about them as "fellowservants" of the dead in Christ who are still on the earth at that point. How can you not take Rev 6:9-11 into account when interpreting Rev 6:4? You need to take all scripture into account here and not just cherry pick certain scriptures.

You are missing important details within Rev 3:10 (ESV): Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth.

First, the "hour of trial" is the 7-year Trib. The Trib is God's 21 judgments of wrath against "those who dwell on the earth."

There are two keywords in Rev 3:10: "you" and "those." Those two words distinguish two separate groups. Jesus said “you” only when He was speaking to and about believers. When He said "those," He was specifically referencing unbelievers only: "those who dwell on the earth." In the context of the Trib, that is a derogatory phrase that references unbelievers, only. Rev 11:10 (ESV) is a prime example: and those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them and make merry and exchange presents, because these two prophets had been a torment to those who dwell on the earth.

Jesus said, "I will keep YOU from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try THOSE who dwell on the earth." Jesus was thereby saying we believers will not enter the Trib, and only unbelievers will be tried in the hour of trial.

Rev 4:1 is the pre-Trib rapture of the Church, straight to Heaven. Apostle John never left the island of Patmos during his entire vision of Revelation. Everything he heard and saw was presented to him by one angel. This is proven by John's own words: Rev 22:8 (ESV): I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed them to me,

Therefore, Rev 4:1 is entirely in the future, as the pre-Trib rapture of the Church.

 

[keras]

This is not evidence for a pre-trib rapture whatsoever. As of the fifth seal, believers are still here because it talks about them as "fellowservants" of the dead in Christ who are still on the earth at that point. How can you not take Rev 6:9-11 into account when interpreting Rev 6:4? You need to take all scripture into account here and not just cherry pick certain scriptures.

We who refute the rapture to heaven, can show how wrong the pre-trib believers are until doomsday, but they will never understand, because they can't. they are locked into their delusion, as verses like Isaiah 29:9-12, Jeremiah 4:22, 2 Thessalonians 2:11-12, confirm.

It really will be doomsday, the sudden and shocking Day of the Lords fiery wrath, when all who have gripped onto false theories and unbiblical fables, will finally have the veil removed and will comprehend Gods amazing Plan for His people, for then and after the Millennium, into Eternity. Isaiah 29:23, 35:4-5

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Why should I take your word for this? Where is the evidence to back up what you're saying? Why would we ever need to be taken off of the earth to avoid temptations and trials when Christians have been enduring that for almost 2,000 years now?

The only time we will need to be taken off of the earth is just before this happens on the day Jesus comes again:

1 Thessalonians 5:2 for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare. 11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.


LOL at "Attackers". Are you always this overly dramatic?


There is no indication in that verse that it's talking about God's wrath. It's talking about being tried by persecution and temptation.

Revelation 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Why would Jesus tell the people of the church in Philadelphia that He would taken them off the earth to avoid "the hour of temptation" after previously telling the people of the church in Smyrna this:

Revelation 2:10 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive; 9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan. 10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life. 11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Jesus wants us to patiently endure and to overcome and keep our faith during trials and tribulations, not to expect to be taken off of the earth to avoid trouble.

John 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.


No, it isn't. You are saying that to support your doctrine, but that understanding does not line up with the rest of Revelation 2 and 3 and the rest of scripture.


That doesn't matter. Read this...

Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

This shows that the "fellowservants" of those who have died are still on the earth while being persecuted by "those who dwell on the earth" as of the time of the fifth seal. So, this passage clearly shows that your claim is wrong and that your understanding of the seals, trumpets and vials is wrong.


If that's the best evidence you have, then you have very little to no evidence to support your view because that passage is talking about the wrath of Christ that comes down on the day He returns "after the tribulation of those days". Compare Revelation 6:12-17 to this:

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The similarities between Revelation 6:12-14 and Matthew 24:29 are obvious, so the timing of the sixth seal is "immediately after the tribulation of those days" and right after that is when Jesus returns and His wrath comes down on all of His enemies.


You are ignorant about what others believe, so you need to educate yourself. I believe Jesus returns at that point because it lines up with Matthew 24:29-31, so that is when the rapture occurs. Those left behind on the earth fearing for their lives will all be killed at that point.

2 Thessalonians 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Notice that He will take vengeance on all of His enemies on the same day that He comes "to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe" which is an obvious reference to the rapture when His saints are gathered to Him.


It's obviously not talking about believers doing that. This is not evidence for a pre-trib rapture whatsoever. As of the fifth seal, believers are still here because it talks about them as "fellowservants" of the dead in Christ who are still on the earth at that point. How can you not take Rev 6:9-11 into account when interpreting Rev 6:4? You need to take all scripture into account here and not just cherry pick certain scriptures.

The "144k" in Rev 7:1-8 are responsible for the greatest revival in the Trib. Their combined efforts lead a great multitude to salvation. That great multitude (GM) is revealed in Rev 7:9-17.

The GM is composed of new converts in the Trib who are martyred. The new converts come about because many unbelievers in the Trib come to their senses, repent and accept Jesus Christ as their Savior. They are martyred for their testimony of Jesus Christ (Rev 6:9). The martyrs in Rev 6:9 are from the 2nd and 4th seals, which kill over 25% of the world's population. During those tremendous slaughters, many unbelievers come to their senses and repent and turn to Jesus for salvation.

The new converts from the GT ("great tribulation" -- the second half of the Trib) are found in Rev 12:17 and Rev 13:7 & 15. Likewise, they are martyred for keeping the commandments of God, for holding to the testimony of Jesus (Rev 12:17) or for refusing to worship the image of the beast (Rev 13:15). They become the "fellow servants" cited in Rev 6:11. The martyrs from the GT also end up under the altar, as is strongly implied in Rev 20:4.

All of the martyrs that become the GM are resurrected in the last sentence of Rev 20:4. The GM is millions of new converts who come to Christ in the Trib, and who are martyred for their testimony of Jesus Christ or for refusing to worship the beast. After their resurrection in Rev 20:4, the GM is seen in Heaven, in Rev 7:9.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

We who refute the rapture to heaven, can show how wrong the pre-trib believers are until doomsday, but they will never understand, because they can't. they are locked into their delusion, as verses like Isaiah 29:9-12, Jeremiah 4:22, 2 Thessalonians 2:11-12, confirm.

It really will be doomsday, the sudden and shocking Day of the Lords fiery wrath, when all who have gripped onto false theories and unbiblical fables, will finally have the veil removed and will comprehend Gods amazing Plan for His people, for then and after the Millennium, into Eternity. Isaiah 29:23, 35:4-5

Keras, those who attempt to refute the pre-Trib rapture always cite inapplicable verses. Your citing of 1 Peter 4:12 (regarding "fiery trial," without admitting it) has no contextual relationship with the Trib. That is the ploy you continually pull.

The reason you can't refute the pre-Trib rapture is because Rev 4:1 is factually a future event. Apostle John never left the island of Patmos during his vision of Revelation, because it was shown to him by one angel who was sent to John, while John was on Patmos.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

You are missing important details within Rev 3:10 (ESV): Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth.

First, the "hour of trial" is the 7-year Trib.

What 7 year Trib? You can't convince me of what you believe when you reference something that isn't taught in scripture. You cannot use Revelation 3:10 to support pre-trib. You can never convince me of that no matter what you do.

The Trib is God's 21 judgments of wrath against "those who dwell on the earth."

Revelation 3:10 is not referring to God's wrath, as I've already shown. It's "the hour of temptation". Temptation is not God's wrath.

There are two keywords in Rev 3:10: "you" and "those." Those two words distinguish two separate groups. Jesus said “you” only when He was speaking to and about believers. When He said "those," He was specifically referencing unbelievers only: "those who dwell on the earth."

You need to learn to look at surrounding verses for context. None of what you're saying fits the theme of what Jesus says in Revelation 2 and 3.

Look at the verses following Revelation 3:10.

Revelation 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. 11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown. 12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

If we were just going to be taken off of the earth before the hour of temptation/trial occurred, then what is the point of Jesus saying to "hold that fast which thou hast" and what is the point of Him talking about overcoming? Verses 11 and 12 do not support your understanding of verse 10 at all, but instead shows that believers need to stay strong in the faith in order to endure and overcome during the hour of temptation.

In the context of the Trib, that is a derogatory phrase that references unbelievers, only. Rev 11:10 (ESV) is a prime example: and those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them and make merry and exchange presents, because these two prophets had been a torment to those who dwell on the earth.

Jesus said, "I will keep YOU from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try THOSE who dwell on the earth." Jesus was thereby saying we believers will not enter the Trib, and only unbelievers will be tried in the hour of trial.

Rev 4:1 is the pre-Trib rapture of the Church, straight to Heaven. Apostle John never left the island of Patmos during his entire vision of Revelation. Everything he heard and saw was presented to him by one angel. This is proven by John's own words: Rev 22:8 (ESV): I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed them to me,

Therefore, Rev 4:1 is entirely in the future, as the pre-Trib rapture of the Church.

You just repeat the exact words you've already said. I've already addressed all of this, so if you have nothing new then there's nothing more I can say than what I've already said. Revelation 4:1 is absolutely NOT a reference to a pre-trib rapture. It relates to John only being given visions and not just of the distant future. The church is referenced multiple times after Revelation 4:1 as can be seen in passages like Revelation 6:9-11, Revelation 12:17, Revelation 13:7 and Revelation 14:12-13.