Where is the Great Multitude from Rev 7:13,14

[Diamond72]

If you understood Hades, it is only for unbelievers.

God's justice is the same for everyone. This is why we need to be sanctified and Holy before God.

 

[keras]

The GWTJ only tries those who died in sin.

Merely your op[nion.

All who died in Christ are raised at 1 Th 4:16. All living believers, along with the newly raised dead in Christ, are transformed into our glorified bodies, and we are raptured in 1 Th 4:17.

Simply not what the Bible says at all.
There is no 'transformation' for the living Christians when Jesus Returns. They will just be gathered to Him; Matthew 24:31
The ONLY dead people raised, will be the GT martyrs. Rev 20:4

The whole concept of the 'rapture to heaven', is false and cannot happen, as Jesus said - John 3:13

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Merely your op[nion.

Simply not what the Bible says at all.
There is no 'transformation' for the living Christians when Jesus Returns. They will just be gathered to Him; Matthew 24:31
The ONLY dead people raised, will be the GT martyrs. Rev 20:4

The whole concept of the 'rapture to heaven', is false and cannot happen, as Jesus said - John 3:13

Keras, my alleged opinions are all supported by the verses I cited. You keep ignoring the other judgments, and what group or groups are judged at each judgment. You also ignore that no one is judged twice. You're otherwise saying God didn't get it right the first time.

I have the facts on my side. The Judgment Seat of Christ is held in Heaven, on the day of the pre-Trib rapture, per 2 Tim 4:8. The AC and the false prophet are judged during Armageddon. The "elect" are judged as the sheep and the unbelievers who survive the Trib are judged as the goats in Matt 25. In Rev 20, Satan is judged all alone and tossed into the lake of fire. Who's left to be judged? The correct answer is only those who died in sin. Their judgment occurs exclusively at the GWTJ.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Merely your op[nion.

Simply not what the Bible says at all.
There is no 'transformation' for the living Christians when Jesus Returns. They will just be gathered to Him; Matthew 24:31
The ONLY dead people raised, will be the GT martyrs. Rev 20:4

The whole concept of the 'rapture to heaven', is false and cannot happen, as Jesus said - John 3:13

1 Cor 15:52 works only with 1 Th 4:16-17. The "last trump" in verse 52 is the trumpet sound in verse 16. We are all "changed" in verse 17, and we are then raptured directly to Heaven, per Rev 4:1.

Here's John 3:5 (NIV): Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.

Elijah was "born of water and the Spirit" by being so faithful. Elijah was raptured to Heaven, as recorded in 2 Kings 2:11 (NIV): As they were walking along and talking together, suddenly a chariot of fire and horses of fire appeared and separated the two of them, and Elijah went up to heaven in a whirlwind.

Elijah was raptured to Heaven.

The GM (great multitude) are in Heaven in Rev 7:9-17. Those are millions of new converts from the Trib. The 144k helped them all become "born of water and the Spirit."

1 Th 1:10 is about the pre-Trib rapture. Do I, again, have to go over the facts of God's wrath coming in the 2nd seal? That's the "wrath to come" referred to in 1 Th 1:10. "Delivers us" is used in that verse per its second usage in the Bible, meaning "snatched away." We are kept from the hour of trial (Rev 3:10) by being snatched away in 1 Th 1:10, directly to Heaven per Rev 4:1.

The first martyrs come from the worldwide killing in the 2nd and 4th seals, per Rev 6:9-10. In verse 9, those martyrs are under the altar. In verse 10, they are crying out. Here's verse 11 (ESV): Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brothers should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.

The "fellow servants" who will "be killed as they themselves had been," are the martyrs found in Rev 20:4. You need to connect the dots between Rev 6:9-11 and Rev 20:4. There are two groups of martyrs, just as Jesus says in Rev 6:11. That second group is found in Rev 20:4.

All those martyrs are resurrected together in the last sentence of Rev 20:4. They are then found in Heaven in Rev 7:9-17.

 

[keras]

I have the facts on my side. The Judgment Seat of Christ is held in Heaven,

You are wrong - there are no 'facts' to support your false rapture belief.
Matthew 25:31 clearly states the bema Judgment of the nations, will take place on earth.

All those martyrs are resurrected together in the last sentence of Rev 20:4. They are then found in Heaven in Rev 7:9-17.

A complete and utter falsehood, You should be ashamed, if not now, when Jesus Judges you for promoting such lies.
Revelation 20:4 is undeniable; ONLY the GT martyrs will be resurrected. `
Revelation 7:9-17 never mentions heaven. That location is a totally wrong assumption.

 

[Diamond72]

The whole concept of the 'rapture to heaven', is false

The word “rapture” does not actually appear in the Bible. The term comes from the Latin word “rapturo,” which means “caught up” or "snatched away"12. This concept is derived from passages like 1 Thessalonians 4:17, where it describes believers being “caught up” to meet the Lord in the air2

We are all going to be "raptured" when we die because it means to be snatched away from our Body. Some people get this confused with the resurrection which is just the opposite of rapture.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Merely your op[nion.

Simply not what the Bible says at all.
There is no 'transformation' for the living Christians when Jesus Returns. They will just be gathered to Him; Matthew 24:31
The ONLY dead people raised, will be the GT martyrs. Rev 20:4

The whole concept of the 'rapture to heaven', is false and cannot happen, as Jesus said - John 3:13

In Rev 3:10, Jesus promises we will be pre-Trib raptured by saying, "I will keep you from the hour of trial." The "hour of trial" is the 7-year Trib. We believers will not be on Earth when the Trib starts. We are pre-Trib raptured per 1 Th 1:10 and Rev 4:1.

1 Cor 15:52 only aligns with 1 Th 4:16-17. You cannot escape that fact. 1 Th 4:16-17 are the details about what occurs in the pre-Trib rapture. The dead in Christ are raised first, in 1 Th 4:16, then we and they are changed "in the twinkling of an eye" (1 Cor 15:52) into our glorified bodies. In 1 Th 4:17 we are raptured directly to Heaven, per Rev 4:1.

Those are the Scriptures that fulfill the pre-Trib rapture. Rev 4:1 is a future event that will fulfill the pre-Trib rapture.

 

[Diamond72]

We believers will not be on Earth when the Trib starts.

Would not be able to have a tribulation if we were on the earth.

2Thesalonians 2:7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work, but the one who now restrains it will continue until he is taken out of the way.

 

[keras]

A lot of Christian people believe that there will be a "pre-tribulation rapture”, that is: they believe that before the beast of Revelation takes over, makes war on the saints, and demands his mark on each person's body, all Christians will be "raptured".
The word rapture and the idea of a removal of living people to heaven is not in the Bible.

The Bible does not teach a pre-tribulation rapture. It teaches tribulation. Because these people believe that they will not be here for the tribulation, they are not spiritually or physically preparing themselves, or their children, for what is to come.
They cannot see what is happening before their very eyes. They are so locked into deception that they cannot see nor hear. Not only are they deceived, they condemn anyone who does not believe in a pretribulation rapture.

The nature of deception is that you really believe what is false and that you disbelieve what is true. The only way that someone can come out of deception is if they really love the truth. If someone truly loves the scriptures, he will change his beliefs to conform to the scriptures when he sees that he is wrong. Unfortunately, most people feel that they have too much to lose by changing their false belief system. What if a dispensationalist preacher accepted the truth that he has been preaching a lie? Do you think his preacher friends will congratulate him for leaving deception? Do you think his dispensationalist congregation will be happy with him? There is a good chance that he will lose his tenure and position. Because many love the praise of men more than the praise of God, they will stay in deception rather lose their standing in their community. They cannot even afford to think that their beliefs may be wrong. You have to really love the truth to run this race.

Dispensationalism and the rapture is a heresy taught all across the face of the earth in Bible colleges and seminaries. It is preached and taught from pulpits, in books, and videos.
All this is really sad, because the truth of God’s Plans for His people, are for their wellbeing and He is ready to pour out His blessings upon every Christian who stands firm in their faith during the testing time to come.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

In Rev 3:10, Jesus promises we will be pre-Trib raptured by saying, "I will keep you from the hour of trial." The "hour of trial" is the 7-year Trib. We believers will not be on Earth when the Trib starts. We are pre-Trib raptured per 1 Th 1:10 and Rev 4:1.

1 Cor 15:52 only aligns with 1 Th 4:16-17. You cannot escape that fact. 1 Th 4:16-17 are the details about what occurs in the pre-Trib rapture. The dead in Christ are raised first, in 1 Th 4:16, then we and they are changed "in the twinkling of an eye" (1 Cor 15:52) into our glorified bodies. In 1 Th 4:17 we are raptured directly to Heaven, per Rev 4:1.

Those are the Scriptures that fulfill the pre-Trib rapture. Rev 4:1 is a future event that will fulfill the pre-Trib rapture.

A lot of Christian people believe that there will be a "pre-tribulation rapture”, that is: they believe that before the beast of Revelation takes over, makes war on the saints, and demands his mark on each person's body, all Christians will be "raptured".
The word rapture and the idea of a removal of living people to heaven is not in the Bible.

The Bible does not teach a pre-tribulation rapture. It teaches tribulation. Because these people believe that they will not be here for the tribulation, they are not spiritually or physically preparing themselves, or their children, for what is to come.
They cannot see what is happening before their very eyes. They are so locked into deception that they cannot see nor hear. Not only are they deceived, they condemn anyone who does not believe in a pretribulation rapture.

The nature of deception is that you really believe what is false and that you disbelieve what is true. The only way that someone can come out of deception is if they really love the truth. If someone truly loves the scriptures, he will change his beliefs to conform to the scriptures when he sees that he is wrong. Unfortunately, most people feel that they have too much to lose by changing their false belief system. What if a dispensationalist preacher accepted the truth that he has been preaching a lie? Do you think his preacher friends will congratulate him for leaving deception? Do you think his dispensationalist congregation will be happy with him? There is a good chance that he will lose his tenure and position. Because many love the praise of men more than the praise of God, they will stay in deception rather lose their standing in their community. They cannot even afford to think that their beliefs may be wrong. You have to really love the truth to run this race.

Dispensationalism and the rapture is a heresy taught all across the face of the earth in Bible colleges and seminaries. It is preached and taught from pulpits, in books, and videos.
All this is really sad, because the truth of God’s Plans for His people, are for their wellbeing and He is ready to pour out His blessings upon every Christian who stands firm in their faith during the testing time to come.

Keras, the first verse written about the pre-Trib rapture is 1 Th 1:10. I'm going to state why that is true, with biblical evidence. I challenge you to disprove it, with relevant biblical evidence.

1 Th 1:10 (ESV): and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

Let's first define God's wrath. Ezekiel 14:21 (NLT): “Now this is what the Sovereign Lord says: How terrible it will be when all four of these dreadful punishments fall upon Jerusalem—war, famine, wild animals, and disease—destroying all her people and animals.

In the Trib, the wrath of God begins no later than the 2nd seal. Rev 6:4 (the 2nd seal) is about wars that will suddenly break out all over the world. Here's Rev 6:4 (NLT): Then another horse appeared, a red one. Its rider was given a mighty sword and the authority to take peace from the earth. And there was war and slaughter everywhere.

Those wars and their tremendous cost of lives, satisfies the requirement for God’s wrath at the beginning of the Trib, for the purpose of 1 Th 1:10.

In 1 Th 1:10, “delivers us” relates to the second usage of “deliverance,” in the Bible. That second usage translates to “snatch away.” Therefore, 1 Th 1:10 is about our being “snatched away" just before God’s wrath comes in the 2nd seal, in Rev 6:4.

The furtherance of our being snatched away and raptured to Heaven, is the sole purpose of Rev 4:1. Apostle John never left the island of Patmos during his vision of Revelation. In John's own words, it was one angel who showed John everything he heard and saw in his vision of Revelation. That attestation by John is in Rev 22:8 (NLT): I, John, am the one who heard and saw all these things. And when I heard and saw them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed them to me.

Therefore, Rev 4:1 is a future event, being the pre-Trib rapture of the Church, straight to Heaven.

 

[Diamond72]

The word rapture and the idea of a removal of living people to heaven is not in the Bible.

The word “rapture” does not actually appear in the Bible. The term comes from the Latin word “rapere,” which means “to carry off” or "to catch up"12. While the specific word isn’t in the text, the concept is derived from passages like 1 Thessalonians 4:17, which describes believers being “caught up” to meet the Lord.

Jesus said: " “According to your faith let it be done to you"; If people are pre, mid or post "tribulation" "rapture" than that is what they are prepared for and I believe they will get what they bargained for. IF THERE IS a 7 year tribulation which is not clear at all in the Bible.

We are going to go from the church age to the kingdom age but I am not so sure HOW we will make that transition. Some people believe the church age will end with as much tribulation as they saw in the beginning of the age.

 

[keras]

Therefore, Rev 4:1 is a future event, being the pre-Trib rapture of the Church, straight to Heaven.

With such a blatantly wrong and easily refuted statement, you lose all credibility. Any reader of the Bible can easily see how foolish it is.

Revelation 4:1 applies to John only. Any ideas that it could apply to people today, is false and adding to Revelation. A very bad idea.

If this is your best effort to prove a rapture, then you have dismally failed. Better have a Plan B.

Jesus said: " “According to your faith let it be done to you"; If people are pre, mid or post "tribulation" "rapture" than that is what they are prepared for and I believe they will get what they bargained for

Our great test of faith is soon to come, 1 Peter 4:12
Those who stand firm in their trust in the Lords protection on that terrible Day, will be blessed and will be His priests and co-rulers on earth. Isaiah 66:18b-21
Note: the vivid description of the Lords Day of fiery wrath in Isaiah 66:15-17

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

With such a blatantly wrong and easily refuted statement, you lose all credibility. Any reader of the Bible can easily see how foolish it is.

Revelation 4:1 applies to John only. Any ideas that it could apply to people today, is false and adding to Revelation. A very bad idea.

If this is your best effort to prove a rapture, then you have dismally failed. Better have a Plan B.

Our great test of faith is soon to come, 1 Peter 4:12
Those who stand firm in their trust in the Lords protection on that terrible Day, will be blessed and will be His priests and co-rulers on earth. Isaiah 66:18b-21
Note: the vivid description of the Lords Day of fiery wrath in Isaiah 66:15-17.

Keras, your claims about Rev 4:1 are refuted by Rev 4:1 and Rev 22:8.

Rev 4:1 (NLT): Then as I looked, I saw a door standing open in heaven, and the same voice I had heard before spoke to me like a trumpet blast. The voice said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must happen after this.”

John only describes what he SAW and HEARD in his vision. He was talking about his vision ("as I looked, I saw"). John was also talking about what he had heard in his vision ("the same voice I had heard before"). Rev 22:8 (NLT): I, John, am the one who heard and saw all these things. And when I heard and saw them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed them to me.

In all of Rev, John heard and saw all he wrote about from his vision that was shown to him by one angel. Did he really see the beast in Rev 13:3, or was that from his vision? John never left the island of Patmos, and Rev 22:8 proves it.

1 Peter 4 is not about the Trib. Please read the whole chapter. The context is the daily trials and tribulations of his disciples.

Isaiah 66 is about the judgements of the sheep and goats (Matt 25:31-46), and the GWTJ (Rev 20:11-15).

Rev 4:1 is proven to be a future event, the pre-Trib rapture of the Church, straight to Heaven.

 

[keras]

Keras, your claims about Rev 4:1 are refuted by Rev 4:1 and Rev 22:8.

Rev 4:1 (NLT): Then as I looked, I saw a door standing open in heaven, and the same voice I had heard before spoke to me like a trumpet blast. The voice said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must happen after this.”

John only describes what he SAW and HEARD in his vision. He was talking about his vision ("as I looked, I saw"). John was also talking about what he had heard in his vision ("the same voice I had heard before"). Rev 22:8 (NLT): I, John, am the one who heard and saw all these things. And when I heard and saw them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed them to me.

In all of Rev, John heard and saw all he wrote about from his vision that was shown to him by one angel. Did he really see the beast in Rev 13:3, or was that from his vision? John never left the island of Patmos, and Rev 22:8 proves it.

1 Peter 4 is not about the Trib. Please read the whole chapter. The context is the daily trials and tribulations of his disciples.

Isaiah 66 is about the judgements of the sheep and goats (Matt 25:31-46), and the GWTJ (Rev 20:11-15).

Rev 4:1 is proven to be a future event, the pre-Trib rapture of the Church, straight to Heaven.

This false and very pretentious theory, is a very bad misinterpretation of the scriptures.
Christians have the Great Commission as their task Matthew 28:19-20 We do not and cannot go to heaven.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

This false and very pretentious theory, is a very bad misinterpretation of the scriptures.
Christians have the Great Commission as their task Matthew 28:19-20 We do not and cannot go to heaven.

When are we supposed to fulfill the Great Commission?

 

[keras]

When are we supposed to fulfill the Great Commission?

Now and Until Jesus Returns
Get on with it and be seen to be doing good works, instead of promoting escapism.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Now and Until Jesus Returns
Get on with it and be seen to be doing good works, instead of promoting escapism.

I am not promoting escapism. Jesus said in Rev 3:10, "I will keep you from the hour of trial ..." You KNOW that means the 7-year Trib. Is Jesus promoting escapism?

 

[Diamond72]

With such a blatantly wrong and easily refuted statement, you lose all credibility.

It is amazing how accurate people are at describing themselves. The Bible clearly teachers that God does NOT give us the ability to judge people. We can ONLY judge ourselves. Which is clearly what YOU are doing.

Psychological projection - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Diamond72]

Our great test of faith is soon to come

I have been hearing that for 50 years. I do not think I will live long enough to see it happen now.

 

[keras]

. Jesus said in Rev 3:10, "I will keep you from the hour of trial ..." You KNOW that means the 7-year Trib. Is Jesus promoting escapism?

What that verse does NOT mean; is a rapture to heaven of the Christians.
The hour of trial, will be the Lords Day of fiery wrath, the Sixth Seal worldwide disaster. The 3 1/2 year Great Tribulation, will affect the ungodly peoples. The peoples of God will be protected thru it all.

I have been hearing that for 50 years. I do not think I will live long enough to see it happen now.

Patience. We are very close to that test of our faith now.
We must be tested and proved faithful, in order to become His children, Hebrews 12:8