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Where is the Great Multitude from Rev 7:13,14

Jeffrey Bowden

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What that verse does NOT mean; is a rapture to heaven of the Christians.
The hour of trial, will be the Lords Day of fiery wrath, the Sixth Seal worldwide disaster. The 3 1/2 year Great Tribulation, will affect the ungodly peoples. The peoples of God will be protected thru it all.

Patience. We are very close to that test of our faith now.
We must be tested and proved faithful, in order to become His children, Hebrews 12:8
Here's Rev 3:10 (ESV): Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth.

Those who "dwell on the earth," in the context of the Trib, are unbelievers: Rev 11:10 (ESV): and those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them and make merry and exchange presents, because these two prophets had been a torment to those who dwell on the earth.

We will be kept from the Trib, which will envelop "the whole world" of unbelievers. Jesus proved right there that we will not be on Earth during the Trib because "the hour of trial" is coming on "the whole world" of unbelievers ("those who dwell on the earth").

In the Trib, God's wrath starts no later than the 2nd seal. Wars in the Trib are a certified form of God's wrath per Ezekiel 14:21. The wars in Rev 6:4 will envelop the whole world. That is the "wrath to come" that will have us snatched away before the Trib, per 1 Th 1:10. "Delivers us" in 1 Th 1:10 relates to the second usage of "deliverance" in the Bible. That second usage translates to "snatch away." We will be snatched away in 1 Th 1:10. All raptures go straight to Heaven: 2 Kings 2:11 (ESV): And as they still went on and talked, behold, chariots of fire and horses of fire separated the two of them. And Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven. Also, Rev 11:12 (ESV): Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here!” And they went up to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies watched them.

1 Peter 4's "fiery wrath" has nothing to do with the Trib. It is wholly about the most intense trials and tribulation in being a disciple for Peter. Please read that whole chapter for its accurate context.
 
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Jeffrey Bowden

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What that verse does NOT mean; is a rapture to heaven of the Christians.
The hour of trial, will be the Lords Day of fiery wrath, the Sixth Seal worldwide disaster. The 3 1/2 year Great Tribulation, will affect the ungodly peoples. The peoples of God will be protected thru it all.

Patience. We are very close to that test of our faith now.
We must be tested and proved faithful, in order to become His children, Hebrews 12:8
Keras, Rev 6:15-17 is where “everyone” on Earth behaves as the unbelievers they are. They react in horror to an alleged sighting of Jesus, by trying to hide in caves or under rocks. There is no way any believer would react like that regarding an alleged sighting of Jesus. If Jesus were nearby, our only reaction would be to run TO Him to praise and worship Him, with complete love and joy in our hearts!

There are no believers on Earth in Rev 6:15-17. The reason we’re not there is Jesus’ promise to keep us from the hour of trial — which is the 7-year Trib, not the 6th seal. The “trial” Jesus spoke of in Rev 3:10 is the trial by 21 judgments of God’s wrath. He specified that only “those who dwell on the earth” are to be tried because they are unbelievers who will be left behind after the pre-Trib rapture.

You embellish what the 6th seal is about. What proves there’s a disaster of any kind? No one is killed in the 6th seal. There’s no disease, war, wild animals killing people and livestock, etc. You are missing the point of the 6th seal. Its sole purpose is to show proof to the world of unbelievers that God is real and is all-powerful. The objective is to win more converts for Jesus.

The GM is solely composed of millions of martyrs from tremendous human slaughters in the 2nd and 4th seals, through Rev 13. All those martyrs were new converts by way of the extremely hard working 144k (Rev 7).
 
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keras

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Here's Rev 3:10 (ESV): Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth.
That scripture never says those who dwell on the earth - will ever leave it. Certainly not to go to heaven.
The GM is solely composed of millions of martyrs from tremendous human slaughters in the 2nd and 4th seals, through Rev 13. All those martyrs were new converts by way of the extremely hard working 144k (Rev 7).
You are full of nonsense and wild guesswork. Nothing of what you say is Biblically correct.
Why not just go away and practice bunny hops, really make yourself look silly?
 
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Jeffrey Bowden

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That scripture never says those who dwell on the earth - will ever leave it. Certainly not to go to heaven.

You are full of nonsense and wild guesswork. Nothing of what you say is Biblically correct.
Why not just go away and practice bunny hops, really make yourself look silly?
Keras, in the context of the Trib, "those who dwell on the earth," are unbelievers. In Rev 3:10, Jesus cites "you," the believers He was speaking to when saying, "I will keep you from the hour of trial." He then cites "those who dwell on the earth" as those who will be tried by 21 judgments of God's wrath, in the hour of trial.

It is 1 Th 1:10 that snatches us away ("delivers us") before the Trib starts. The requisite "wrath to come" is in Rev 6:4, the 2nd seal, being wars that suddenly break out all over this planet. The 2nd seal satisfies the requirement for God's wrath to occur at the beginning of the Trib. That serves to fulfill 1 Th 1:10, that snatches us away ("delivers us"), in strict accordance with Rev 4:1, 1 Th 4:16-17 and 1 Cor 15:52.

Those are the biblical facts concerning the pre-Trib rapture.
 
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keras

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Those are the biblical facts concerning the pre-Trib rapture.
None of your scriptures say anything about people going to heaven.

It is not now or at any time in the past, Gods Plan to take His peoples to live in heaven. The whole idea of a rapture is false and will never happen.
 
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Jeffrey Bowden

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None of your scriptures say anything about people going to heaven.

It is not now or at any time in the past, Gods Plan to take His peoples to live in heaven. The whole idea of a rapture is false and will never happen.
Keras, all raptures go straight to Heaven: 2 Kings 2:11 and Rev 11:12.

Rev 4:1 is the future rapture of the Church, straight to Heaven.

Jesus said, “I will keep you from the hour of trial,” meaning we will not enter the Trib.

1 Th 1:10 snatches us away from Earth prior to “the wrath to come” in the 2nd seal.

1 Th 4:16-17 and 1 Cor 15:52 are the details to the pre-Trib rapture. Those verses are also prophesied to occur pre-Trib, by Acts 1:9-11.

Upon the 6th seal, Rev 6:15-17 prove that only unbelievers are inhabiting Earth.

All “saints” in the Trib are new converts by the very hard work of the 144k and the 2W. All new converts become martyrs who, in turn, become the GM. That is prophesied by Jesus in Rev 6:11. The GM is in Heaven in Rev 7:9-17. After completing the greatest revival in the Trib, the 144k are in Heaven in Rev 14:3.

You can’t prove anything I’ve said is untrue.
 
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keras

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Upon the 6th seal, Rev 6:15-17 prove that only unbelievers are inhabiting Earth.
Revelation 6:15 is clear: EVERY person will be on earth when the Lord sends His fiery wrath.
Proved by Isaiah 30:26, where the Lord will send that fiery blast to destroy His enemies, but will also heal our wounds

We Christians will go to live in the holy Land. It will be like heaven, Amos 9:13-15
 
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Jeffrey Bowden

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Revelation 6:15 is clear: EVERY person will be on earth when the Lord sends His fiery wrath.
Proved by Isaiah 30:26, where the Lord will send that fiery blast to destroy His enemies, but will also heal our wounds

We Christians will go to live in the holy Land. It will be like heaven, Amos 9:13-15
Rev 6:15-17 are about folks who clearly demonstrate their rejection of Jesus. There is no exception demonstrated. Therefore, 100% of those folks are unbelievers. The proof of my claim is unassailable.
 
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keras

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The proof of my claim is unassailable.
Just like Iran's missiles. Shot down by Israels defences, so is your claim, by Scriptural Truth.

That Christan's will also be present on earth when the Lord sends His fiery wrath, is proved by how He Promiss to protect us, Isaiah 43:2, Psalms 91, +
 
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Jeffrey Bowden

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Just like Iran's missiles. Shot down by Israels defences, so is your claim, by Scriptural Truth.

That Christan's will also be present on earth when the Lord sends His fiery wrath, is proved by how He Promiss to protect us, Isaiah 43:2, Psalms 91, +
Keras, you have cited verses that have nothing to do with the Trib. Where's the fiery wrath in the Trib? It would have to align with a seal, trumpet or bowl. Which is it?

Are you, again, trying to apply 1 Peter 4:12 to the Trib when verse 12 only relates to the daily trials and tribulations of Christian life?

Rev 6:15-17 prove that no believers enter the Trib. There are no verses that disprove that fact.
 
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keras

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Keras, you have cited verses that have nothing to do with the Trib. Where's the fiery wrath in the Trib? It would have to align with a seal, trumpet or bowl. Which is it?
What happens next, is the Sixth Seal, when the Lord will clear and cleanse the entire Middle East region. As Psalms 83 and many other Prophesies vividly describe. It will be the Day that Jesus said will be as in the days of Noah, When God wiped out the entire ungodly peoples.

It is just nonsense to think that God will rapture anyone away from the earth. Noah probably needed seasick pills!
Rev 6:15-17 prove no believers enter the Trib.
Please cease making such wild and untrue comments.
You stupidity just contradicted yourself. The Sixth Seal is not part of the GT.
 
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Jeffrey Bowden

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Just like Iran's missiles. Shot down by Israels defences, so is your claim, by Scriptural Truth.

That Christan's will also be present on earth when the Lord sends His fiery wrath, is proved by how He Promiss to protect us, Isaiah 43:2, Psalms 91, +

What happens next, is the Sixth Seal, when the Lord will clear and cleanse the entire Middle East region. As Psalms 83 and many other Prophesies vividly describe. It will be the Day that Jesus said will be as in the days of Noah, When God wiped out the entire ungodly peoples.

It is just nonsense to think that God will rapture anyone away from the earth. Noah probably needed seasick pills!

Please cease making such wild and untrue comments.
You stupidity just contradicted yourself. The Sixth Seal is not part of the GT.
The 6th seal is not what happens next. You are violating Daniel 9:27. The Trib is only seven years long, not what you falsely claim.

Jesus said in Rev 3:10, “I will keep you from the hour of trial….” That means we believers will not enter the Trib.

1 Th 1:10 is proof of the pre-Trib rapture. Rev 4:1 is a future event. Rev 22:8 proves that John heard and saw everything in his vision of Revelation by what one angel showed him, while John was on Patmos island.
 
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Jeffrey Bowden

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The 6th seal is not what happens next. You are violating Daniel 9:27. The Trib is only seven years long, not what you falsely claim.

Jesus said in Rev 3:10, “I will keep you from the hour of trial….” That means we believers will not enter the Trib.

1 Th 1:10 is proof of the pre-Trib rapture. Rev 4:1 is a future event. Rev 22:8 proves that John heard and saw everything in his vision of Revelation by what one angel showed him, while John was on Patmos island.
You have failed to refute that no believers are in Rev 6:15-17.

You have failed to refute that Jesus promised in Rev 3:10 that believers will not enter the Trib, by His words, "I will keep you from the hour of trial..."

You have failed to refute that 1 Th 1:10 is about the pre-Trib rapture, and that Rev 4:1 is a future event.

It therefore stands that no believers will enter the Trib, because upon Rev 4:1, all believers are raptured straight to Heaven.
 
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Jeffrey Bowden

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What happens next, is the Sixth Seal, when the Lord will clear and cleanse the entire Middle East region. As Psalms 83 and many other Prophesies vividly describe. It will be the Day that Jesus said will be as in the days of Noah, When God wiped out the entire ungodly peoples.

It is just nonsense to think that God will rapture anyone away from the earth. Noah probably needed seasick pills!

Please cease making such wild and untrue comments.
You stupidity just contradicted yourself. The Sixth Seal is not part of the GT.
You have failed to refute that no believers are in Rev 6:15-17.

You have failed to refute that Jesus promised in Rev 3:10 that believers will not enter the Trib, by His words, "I will keep you from the hour of trial..."

You have failed to refute that 1 Th 1:10 is about the pre-Trib rapture, and that Rev 4:1 is a future event.

It therefore stands that no believers will enter the Trib, because upon Rev 4:1, all believers are raptured straight to Heaven.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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You have failed to refute that no believers are in Rev 6:15-17.

You have failed to refute that Jesus promised in Rev 3:10 that believers will not enter the Trib, by His words, "I will keep you from the hour of trial..."

You have failed to refute that 1 Th 1:10 is about the pre-Trib rapture, and that Rev 4:1 is a future event.

It therefore stands that no believers will enter the Trib, because upon Rev 4:1, all believers are raptured straight to Heaven.
You are badly misinterpreting Revelation 3:10. That verse has absolutely nothing to do with a pre-trib rapture. The word "keep" there is translated from the Greek word "tero" and the word "from" is translated from the Greek word "ek". Here is the only other verse which contains those two words used together.

John 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep (tereo) them from (ek) the evil.

Revelation 3:10 is about the same thing as this verse which means it's about being protected from the hour of trial while still on the earth and not about being taken off of the earth in order to avoid going through trials and tribulations. Jesus even prayed that His people would not be taken out of the world in order to avoid evil and trials, so how can you interpret Revelation 3:10 in such a way that contradicts Jesus's desires for us? Christians have been going through trials and tribulations for almost 2,000 years now, so why would that ever change? It makes no sense.

Acts 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

2 Timothy 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

You are also badly misinterpreting Revelation 4:1, which has absolutely nothing to do with a pre-trib rapture. John does not represent the church. He alone was caught up to heaven in some way to be shown certain things. That verse is not about the future. It is about what happened to John long ago when he was given visions of things happening in heaven and from the perspective of heaven.

The church is shown as being on the earth and experiencing tribulation after Revelation 4. Such as in Revelation 12:17 when it talks about Christians being persecuted by Satan and in Revelation 13:7 by the beast. There is no basis for the pre-trib rapture theory whatsoever. Jesus certainly didn't teach it.

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
 
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keras

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It therefore stands that no believers will enter the Trib, because upon Rev 4:1, all believers are raptured straight to Heaven.
Revelation 4:1 does not apply to the Church. It happened to John, when he was still alive, in the first Century.

How can you think the Lord wants you in heaven? He has created angels to serve Him in heaven, We Christians are His servants on earth.
The Bible is very clear: We must endure until the end. That is: until Jesus Returns.

The rapture to heaven theory is a clever lie designed by Satan, to fool gullible and susceptible people.
Thinking that you are good enough now, like Enoch was; for the Lord to take you to heaven, is extremely pretentious and is actually delusional.
Get help. I suggest electric shock treatment!

However, the Lord is soon to send a mighty shock to all the world and hardly anyone knows about it, despite there being over 100 Prophesies that describe that terrible Day.
 
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keras

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They're from verse 4-8
Correct, the 144,000 are part of the Great Multitude of the Christian peoples, who have stood firm in their faith during the recently happened Sixth Seal devastation.
They are all in the holy Land and Jesus reveals Himself to them, 1 Thess 1:10; as He selects 12,000 out from each of the twelve groups they will be divided into. Revelation 14:1-5
 
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Jeffrey Bowden

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You are badly misinterpreting Revelation 3:10. That verse has absolutely nothing to do with a pre-trib rapture. The word "keep" there is translated from the Greek word "tero" and the word "from" is translated from the Greek word "ek". Here is the only other verse which contains those two words used together.

John 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep (tereo) them from (ek) the evil.

Revelation 3:10 is about the same thing as this verse which means it's about being protected from the hour of trial while still on the earth and not about being taken off of the earth in order to avoid going through trials and tribulations. Jesus even prayed that His people would not be taken out of the world in order to avoid evil and trials, so how can you interpret Revelation 3:10 in such a way that contradicts Jesus's desires for us? Christians have been going through trials and tribulations for almost 2,000 years now, so why would that ever change? It makes no sense.

Acts 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

2 Timothy 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

You are also badly misinterpreting Revelation 4:1, which has absolutely nothing to do with a pre-trib rapture. John does not represent the church. He alone was caught up to heaven in some way to be shown certain things. That verse is not about the future. It is about what happened to John long ago when he was given visions of things happening in heaven and from the perspective of heaven.

The church is shown as being on the earth and experiencing tribulation after Revelation 4. Such as in Revelation 12:17 when it talks about Christians being persecuted by Satan and in Revelation 13:7 by the beast. There is no basis for the pre-trib rapture theory whatsoever. Jesus certainly didn't teach it.

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Mr. SJ, here is the applicable definition for the English use of "keep from:" to prevent someone or something from doing something

Rev 3:10 is about keeping believers from entering the Trib.

Here's Rev 3:10 (ESV): Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth.

In the above verse, Jesus cites "you" only as believers. He ends the verse by citing a different group: "those who dwell on the earth." He specified about "those who dwell on the earth" that only they will be tried in the hour of trial. Jesus was referring to the 21 judgments of God's wrath that will occur in the hour of trial, otherwise known as the Trib.

In the context of the Trib, "those who dwell on the earth" are always unbelievers. Please see Rev 11:10 for a classic example, in the context of the Trib, of "those who dwell on the earth" as only being unbelievers.

Therefore, what is meant in Rev 3:10 is we believers will be kept from entering the Trib, and only unbelievers will dwell on the earth and be tried by 21 judgments of God's wrath.

So, where do we go if we don't enter the Trib? We are raptured to Heaven. Let me prove that.

1 Th 1:10 is the first verse written about the pre-Trib rapture. Here's 1 Th 1:10 (ESV): and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

Definitions of God's wrath are found in Ezekiel 14:21 (NLT): “Now this is what the Sovereign Lord says: How terrible it will be when all four of these dreadful punishments fall upon Jerusalem—war, famine, wild animals, and disease—destroying all her people and animals.

Rev 6:4 (the 2nd seal) is about wars that will suddenly break out all over the world. Here's Rev 6:4 (NLT): Then another horse appeared, a red one. Its rider was given a mighty sword and the authority to take peace from the earth. And there was war and slaughter everywhere.

Those wars and their tremendous cost of lives, represent God’s wrath at the beginning of the Trib. That's "the wrath to come" for the purpose of 1 Th 1:10, where “delivers us” relates to the second usage of “deliverance,” in the Bible. That second usage translates to “snatch away.” Therefore, 1 Th 1:10 is about our being “snatched away" just before God’s wrath comes in the Trib, in Rev 6:4.

The furtherance of our being raptured to Heaven, is the sole purpose of Rev 4:1. First, let's be certain that apostle John never left the island of Patmos during his vision of Revelation. In John's own words, it was just one angel who showed John everything he heard and saw in his vision of Revelation. That attestation by John is in Rev 22:8 (NLT): I, John, am the one who heard and saw all these things. And when I heard and saw them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed them to me.

Therefore, Rev 4:1 is a future event, being the pre-Trib rapture of the Church, straight to Heaven.

It is 1 Th 1:10 that snatches us away ("delivers us") before the "wrath to come" in the Trib, in conjunction with Rev 4:1, 1 Th 4:16-17 and 1 Cor 15:52.

Those are biblical facts concerning the pre-Trib rapture.

God bless!
 
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Jeffrey Bowden

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Correct, the 144,000 are part of the Great Multitude of the Christian peoples, who have stood firm in their faith during the recently happened Sixth Seal devastation.
They are all in the holy Land and Jesus reveals Himself to them, 1 Thess 1:10; as He selects 12,000 out from each of the twelve groups they will be divided into. Revelation 14:1-5
Keras, you are incorrect. The GM is defined in Rev 6:11 to be formed by two groups of "fellow servants" who are martyrs. The martyrs are new converts in the Trib who become martyrs for their testimony of Jesus Christ. Please read Rev 6:9-11. The first group of martyrs that become the GM are the souls under the alter in Rev 6:9. The second group are additional martyrs from the 2nd half of the Trib. They are found in Rev 20:4. Both groups of martyrs are resurrected in the last sentence of Rev 20:4. They are next seen in Heaven, in Rev 7:8-17. The "saints" in the Trib (Rev 13:7) are new converts who become martyrs. There are millions of new converts who will be saved and martyred in the Trib. They become the GM. The millions of new converts are the result of the greatest revival in the Trib by the 144k (Rev 7:1-8) and the 2W (the Two Witnesses in Rev 11:3), all to the glory of God Almighty!
 
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