Where is the Great Multitude from Rev 7:13,14

Jeffrey Bowden · Mar 5, 2025

Jeffrey Bowden said:
Rev 16:1 (NIV): Then I heard a loud voice from the temple saying to the seven angels, “Go, pour out the seven bowls of God’s wrath on the earth.”

John’s use of “I heard” is about what he heard in a scene that what was shown to him by one angel.

Rev 17:1-3 (NIV): 1 Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and said to me, “Come, I will show you the judgment of the great prostitute who is seated on many waters, 2 with whom the kings of the earth have committed sexual immorality, and with the wine of whose sexual immorality the dwellers on earth have become drunk.” 3 And he carried me away in the Spirit into a wilderness, and I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast that was full of blasphemous names, and it had seven heads and ten horns

Rev 16:1 and 17:1-3 follow the same pattern as Rev 4:1-2. John was being shown scenes that he wrote up as Rev 4:1-2. John did not go to Heaven in Rev 4:1. He was on Patmos being shown future scenes by one angel. The same goes for Rev 16:1 and 17:1-3. Before “Come, I will show,” in Rev 17:2, John was being shown his vision in Rev 16:1. After “Come, I will show,” John used the phrase, “I saw,” which he was still being shown Rev 17 while on Patmos.

While on Patmos, John was shown all the scenes in Rev. John was extremely busy writing what he just heard and saw that was shown to him by one angel.

Ed Parenteau said:
What it proves is that Jesus wasn't in heaven on His throne when His face "shone like the sun".
And no, One angel did not show John everything. It was the angel of Rev 21:9 who showed John "these things" which were different than the other things he had seen. Anyone can see that if they read from 21:9 to 22:8

If John can write during his vision, then all the following can take place just as easily. God's hands aren't tied by John being on Patmos.
John may have been on Patmos, but it doesn't mean he was chained to it and God would be helpless to take him in the Spirit anywhere He wants to. God opens doors that no man can shut. Just look at Peter's rescue from prison with guards on either side of him.
It's only John who is told to "come up here", there's no one else there to hear it. And verse 2 immediately shows him in heaven before the throne.
Rev 4:1After this I looked and saw a door standing open in heaven. And the voice I had previously heard speak to me like a trumpet was saying, “Come up here, and I will show you what must happen after these things.”2At once I was in the Spirit, and I saw a throne standing in heaven, with someone seated on it.

Here the Lord is having John taken in the Spirit by an angel to the wilderness after obeying the command to come.
Rev 17:1Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and said to me, “Come, I will show you the judgment of the great prostitute who is seated on many waters, 2with whom the kings of the earth have committed sexual immorality, and with the wine of whose sexual immorality the dwellers on earth have become drunk.” 3And he carried me away in the Spirit into a wilderness, and I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast that was full of blasphemous names, and it had seven heads and ten horns

The Lord can have John taken to a high mountain overlooking Jerusalem any way He wishes to, as He did. The angel also commands John to "come" and after John obeys, and is carried away in the Spirit.
Rev 21:9Then came one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues and spoke to me, saying, “Come, I will show you the Bride, the wife of the Lamb.” 10And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great, high mountain, and showed me the holy city Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God,

Wrong.

Ed Parenteau said:
John's not seeing or hearing things physically in the vision. The things he's seeing and hearing aren't there on Patmos, their in the spiritual realm. That's why he's in the Spirit because what he's seeing isn't there in the physical realm.
In chapter 4 of Rev, John's in heaven seeing the vision from heaven, whereas in Ezekiel chapter 1, Ezekiel sees the same vision looking up to the throne in heaven. And what the "vision of the rapture" is missing, is a vision of the rapture. John's not having a vision of a command. Rather he obeyed the command and found himself in heaven seeing a vision of heaven. Something like, I saw a multitude being taken up to heaven. But no, it's just John.

John’s written words prove you are wrong.

Rev 22:8 (ESV): I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed them to me,

John heard and saw ALL of Rev while on Patmos. He wasn’t in a dreamlike state. John’s assignment was to watch the scenes displayed by one angel. Then write about what he heard and saw.

You want John in a dreamlike state, going here and going there, and eventually everywhere cited in Rev. That is totally dismissive of the one angel whom God sent to John to show John all of Rev. Other angels took part, but only in some of the scenes.

Jeffrey Bowden · Mar 5, 2025

Ed Parenteau said:
John's not seeing or hearing things physically in the vision. The things he's seeing and hearing aren't there on Patmos, their in the spiritual realm. That's why he's in the Spirit because what he's seeing isn't there in the physical realm.
In chapter 4 of Rev, John's in heaven seeing the vision from heaven, whereas in Ezekiel chapter 1, Ezekiel sees the same vision looking up to the throne in heaven. And what the "vision of the rapture" is missing, is a vision of the rapture. John's not having a vision of a command. Rather he obeyed the command and found himself in heaven seeing a vision of heaven. Something like, I saw a multitude being taken up to heaven. But no, it's just John.

You are adding to Scripture.

Rev 22:8 (NIV): I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I had heard and seen them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who had been showing them to me.

On Patmos, John was taught Rev by one angel.

When John completed the curriculum of all the scenes in Rev, he fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who had been showing them to him.

Jeffrey Bowden · Mar 6, 2025

Ed Parenteau said:
John's not seeing or hearing things physically in the vision. The things he's seeing and hearing aren't there on Patmos, their in the spiritual realm. That's why he's in the Spirit because what he's seeing isn't there in the physical realm.
In chapter 4 of Rev, John's in heaven seeing the vision from heaven, whereas in Ezekiel chapter 1, Ezekiel sees the same vision looking up to the throne in heaven. And what the "vision of the rapture" is missing, is a vision of the rapture. John's not having a vision of a command. Rather he obeyed the command and found himself in heaven seeing a vision of heaven. Something like, I saw a multitude being taken up to heaven. But no, it's just John.

In Rev 1:9, John is on Patmos. Rev 1:9 (ESV): I, John, your brother and partner in the tribulation and the kingdom and the patient endurance that are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos on account of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus.

In Rev 1:12, John turned his body around and he began to see into Heaven. Rev 1:12 (ESV): Then I turned to see the voice that was speaking to me, and on turning I saw seven golden lampstands, 13 and in the midst of the lampstands one like a son of man, clothed with a long robe and with a golden sash around his chest. 14 The hairs of his head were white, like white wool, like snow. His eyes were like a flame of fire, 15 his feet were like burnished bronze, refined in a furnace, and his voice was like the roar of many waters. 16 In his right hand he held seven stars, from his mouth came a sharp two-edged sword, and his face was like the sun shining in full strength.

In Rev 1:9-16, John was physically on Patmos, seeing into Heaven.

The one angel sent to John, began to show John all of Rev. John would write Rev as the scenes unfolded before him, on Patmos.

Ed Parenteau · Mar 6, 2025

DrGoblin said:
Unfortunately you're wrong they remain unknown you're biased opinion doesn't change that

lt is your bias that accuses me of being wrong without the slightest attempt to prove me wrong.

Ed Parenteau · Mar 7, 2025

DrGoblin said:
It's a false dichotomy just because John didn't say multitude doesn't mean that it wasn't there and perhaps he was writing of his own experience as an example of what everyone's experience would be. the fact is you can't nail it down as solid truth all you can do is be subjective in your opinion so I'll digress and say it's possible what you're saying is true but it's not provable

I'm afraid I don't know what you're responding to.

Ed Parenteau · Mar 7, 2025

Jeffrey Bowden said:
In Rev 1:9, John is on Patmos. Rev 1:9 (ESV): I, John, your brother and partner in the tribulation and the kingdom and the patient endurance that are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos on account of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus.

In Rev 1:12, John turned his body around and he began to see into Heaven. Rev 1:12 (ESV): Then I turned to see the voice that was speaking to me, and on turning I saw seven golden lampstands, 13 and in the midst of the lampstands one like a son of man, clothed with a long robe and with a golden sash around his chest. 14 The hairs of his head were white, like white wool, like snow. His eyes were like a flame of fire, 15 his feet were like burnished bronze, refined in a furnace, and his voice was like the roar of many waters. 16 In his right hand he held seven stars, from his mouth came a sharp two-edged sword, and his face was like the sun shining in full strength.

In Rev 1:9-16, John was physically on Patmos, seeing into Heaven.

The one angel sent to John, began to show John all of Rev. John would write Rev as the scenes unfolded before him, on Patmos.

If John was in the Spirit, what makes you think he turned in the flesh?
I cannot find anything at all in the rest of scripture to corroborate your view of a vision. Visions aren't viewed by physical eyes and ears. They are created in the mind. Ezekiel was with the elders in Babylon when in a vision he was taken to the ruins of Jerusalem and then returned in a vision to Babylon.

Dreams and Visions are of the head/mind

Daniel 4:
1:4I, Nebuchadnezzar, was at ease in my house and prospering in my palace.5I saw a dream that made me afraid. As I lay in bed the fancies and the visions of my head alarmed me...
13“I saw in the visions of my head as I lay in bed, and behold, a watcher, a holy one, came down from heaven.

Daniel 7:
1:In the first year of Belshazzar king of Babylon, Daniel saw a dream and visions of his head as he lay in his bed. Then he wrote down the dream and told the sum of the matter...
15“As for me, Daniel, my spirit within me was anxious, and the visions of my head alarmed me.

Also Dan 2:28

What is seen in dreams are called “visions”

Job 33:14For God speaks in one way,
and in two, though man does not perceive it.
15In a dream, in a vision of the night,
when deep sleep falls on men,
while they slumber on their beds,

Daniel 4:4I, Nebuchadnezzar, was at ease in my house and prospering in my palace.5I saw a dream that made me afraid. As I lay in bed the fancies and the visions of my head alarmed me.

Daniel 7:1In the first year of Belshazzar king of Babylon, Daniel saw a dream and visions of his head as he lay in his bed. Then he wrote down the dream and told the sum of the matter.

A trance is another way to see visions.

Acts 10:10And he became hungry and wanted something to eat, but while they were preparing it, he fell into a trance

Acts 11:5“I was in the city of Joppa praying, and in a trance I saw a vision, something like a great sheet descending, being let down from heaven by its four corners, and it came down to me.

Acts 22:17And he became hungry and wanted something to eat, but while they were preparing it, he fell into a trance

Only God can interpret dreams and visions

Genesis 40:
8They said to him, “We have had dreams, and there is no one to interpret them.” And Joseph said to them, “Do not interpretations belong to God? Please tell them to me.”

Genesis 41
15Pharaoh said to Joseph, “I had a dream, and no one can interpret it. But I have heard it said of you that when you hear a dream you can interpret it.”

16“I myself cannot do it,” Joseph replied, “but God will give Pharaoh a sound answer.”

Daniel 1:17As for these four youths, God gave them learning and skill in all literature and wisdom, and Daniel had understanding in all visions and dreams.

Daniel 2:30But as for me, this mystery has been revealed to me, not because of any wisdom that I have more than all the living, but in order that the interpretation may be made known to the king, and that you may know the thoughts of your mind.

Only the one having the vision can see it.

Ezekiel 8:1In the sixth year, in the sixth month, on the fifth day of the month, as I sat in my house, with the elders of Judah sitting before me, the hand of the Lord God fell upon me there. 2Then I looked, and behold, a form that had the appearance of a man.a Below what appeared to be his waist was fire, and above his waist was something like the appearance of brightness, like gleaming metal.

Daniel 10:7And I, Daniel, alone saw the vision, for the men who were with me did not see the vision, but a great trembling fell upon them, and they fled to hide themselves.

Being taken from one place to another in visions.

Ezekiel 8:3He stretched out what looked like a hand and took me by the hair of my head. Then the Spirit lifted me up between earth and heaven and carried me in visions of God to Jerusalem, to the entrance of the north gate of the inner court, where the idol that provokes jealousy was seated.

Ezekiel 11:24And the Spirit lifted me up and brought me in the vision by the Spirit of God into Chaldea, to the exiles. Then the vision that I had seen went up from me.

Ezekiel 40:2
In visions of God He took me to the land of Israel and set me on a very high mountain, on whose southern slope was a structure that resembled a city.

Ezekiel 43:
3And the vision I saw was just like the vision that I had seen when hea came to destroy the city, and just like the vision that I had seen by the Chebar canal. And I fell on my face. 4As the glory of the Lord entered the temple by the gate facing east, 5the Spirit lifted me up and brought me into the inner court; and behold, the glory of the Lord filled the temple.

Rev 21:10And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great, high mountain, and showed me the holy city Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God,

Jeffrey Bowden · Mar 7, 2025

Ed Parenteau said:
John's not seeing or hearing things physically in the vision. The things he's seeing and hearing aren't there on Patmos, their in the spiritual realm. That's why he's in the Spirit because what he's seeing isn't there in the physical realm.
In chapter 4 of Rev, John's in heaven seeing the vision from heaven, whereas in Ezekiel chapter 1, Ezekiel sees the same vision looking up to the throne in heaven. And what the "vision of the rapture" is missing, is a vision of the rapture. John's not having a vision of a command. Rather he obeyed the command and found himself in heaven seeing a vision of heaven. Something like, I saw a multitude being taken up to heaven. But no, it's just John.

The vision is the viewing of a scene that was shown to John by one angel. This is borne out in Rev 22:8 (ESV): I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed them to me,

One angel was in charge of what was shown to John. John heard and saw each scene, and wrote about what he heard and saw in Rev.

Rev 1:9-16 are John on the island of Patmos, and the first audio and visuals shown to him. They set the pattern that John would follow: view a scene and write about it.

"In the spirit" is rapt attention on Godly things rather than worldly things. The sheer ingenuity and deft presentation of all the scenes in Rev that John heard and viewed, were more than enough to keep him "in the spirit."

Ed Parenteau · Mar 8, 2025

Jeffrey Bowden said:
The vision is the viewing of a scene that was shown to John by one angel. This is borne out in Rev 22:8 (ESV): I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed them to me,

One angel was in charge of what was shown to John. John heard and saw each scene, and wrote about what he heard and saw in Rev.

Rev 1:9-16 are John on the island of Patmos, and the first audio and visuals shown to him. They set the pattern that John would follow: view a scene and write about it.

"In the spirit" is rapt attention on Godly things rather than worldly things. The sheer ingenuity and deft presentation of all the scenes in Rev that John heard and viewed, were more than enough to keep him "in the spirit."

John may have been in Patmos, but he was also taken in the Spirit in his revelatory supernatural vision(one of the gifts of the Spirit) to different scene locations as he was taken before the throne in heaven in the scenes he saw from heaven Rev Chapters 4-10 until he went to the angel who was standing on land and sea, where he took the scroll and ate it(Rev10). Then he was carried away to the wilderness which is not on Patmos in his vision. Rev 17:3 and then he was carried away to a high mountain by the angel of Rev 21:9 in his vision.
You didn't get your definition of a vision from the bible. You assume things not stated and make them your own private interpretation.
The problem you have, is that you prophesied that the rapture would happen in 2 or 3 years at the most.
If you don't believe the New Testament eschatology was written for the people in the first century, you can at least wait to see the first sign that was said to come before you make predictions.
Luke 21:10Then he said to them, “Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. 11There will be great earthquakes, and in various places famines and pestilences. And there will be terrors and great signs from heaven. 12But before all this they will lay their hands on you and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons, and you will be brought before kings and governors for my name’s sake.
It is your claim that "you" means Christians, not mine. I always look for the antecedent noun the personal pronoun replaces.

Jeffrey Bowden · Mar 9, 2025

Ed Parenteau said:
John may have been in Patmos, but he was also taken in the Spirit in his revelatory supernatural vision(one of the gifts of the Spirit) to different scene locations as he was taken before the throne in heaven in the scenes he saw from heaven Rev Chapters 4-10 until he went to the angel who was standing on land and sea, where he took the scroll and ate it(Rev10). Then he was carried away to the wilderness which is not on Patmos in his vision. Rev 17:3 and then he was carried away to a high mountain by the angel of Rev 21:9 in his vision.
You didn't get your definition of a vision from the bible. You assume things not stated and make them your own private interpretation.
The problem you have, is that you prophesied that the rapture would happen in 2 or 3 years at the most.
If you don't believe the New Testament eschatology was written for the people in the first century, you can at least wait to see the first sign that was said to come before you make predictions.
Luke 21:10Then he said to them, “Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. 11There will be great earthquakes, and in various places famines and pestilences. And there will be terrors and great signs from heaven. 12But before all this they will lay their hands on you and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons, and you will be brought before kings and governors for my name’s sake.
It is your claim that "you" means Christians, not mine. I always look for the antecedent noun the personal pronoun replaces.

Rev 1:1 (ESV): The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants the things that must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,

One angel was sent by God, to John on Patmos, to make “it” known. “It” was ALL of Rev. The writing of Rev was an urgent objective. That was the responsibility of that one angel.

Rev 22:8 (ESV): I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed them to me,

John described his vision as what he heard and saw.

Rev 10:1-2 (ESV): Then I saw another mighty angel coming down from heaven, wrapped in a cloud, with a rainbow over his head, and his face was like the sun, and his legs like pillars of fire. 2 He had a little scroll open in his hand. And he set his right foot on the sea, and his left foot on the land,

Rev 10:1 begins with, “Then I saw …”

John “heard and saw” the supernatural scenes showed to him by one angel. Rev 10:1-2 were written as John was shown those supernatural scenes: they appeared before him, just as in Rev 1:12-16. John was guided by the one angel who went to Patmos specifically to guide John through the entire vision of Rev, while John remained on Patmos.

I’m quoting the Bible. You are making things up. “In the spirit” does not apply to John in the manner you are using it.

Ed Parenteau · Mar 9, 2025

Jeffrey Bowden said:
Rev 1:1 (ESV): The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants the things that must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,

One angel was sent by God, to John on Patmos, to make “it” known. “It” was ALL of Rev. The writing of Rev was an urgent objective. That was the responsibility of that one angel.

Rev 22:8 (ESV): I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed them to me,

John described his vision as what he heard and saw.

Rev 10:1-2 (ESV): Then I saw another mighty angel coming down from heaven, wrapped in a cloud, with a rainbow over his head, and his face was like the sun, and his legs like pillars of fire. 2 He had a little scroll open in his hand. And he set his right foot on the sea, and his left foot on the land,

Rev 10:1 begins with, “Then I saw …”

John “heard and saw” the supernatural scenes showed to him by one angel. Rev 10:1-2 were written as John was shown those supernatural scenes: they appeared before him, just as in Rev 1:12-16. John was guided by the one angel who went to Patmos specifically to guide John through the entire vision of Rev, while John remained on Patmos.

I’m quoting the Bible. You are making things up. “In the spirit” does not apply to John in the manner you are using it.

One can see and hear in a dream also. So what's the difference?
Genesis 28:12And he dreamed, and behold, there was a ladder set up on the earth, and the top of it reached to heaven. And behold, the angels of God were ascending and descending on it! 13And behold, the Lord stood above it and said, “I am the Lord, the God of Abraham your father and the God of Isaac. The land on which you lie I will give to you and to your offspring.
Matthew 1:20But as he considered these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not fear to take Mary as your wife, for that which is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit.

Then let's take a look at other visions recorded in the bible in the Spirit. The kind of "in the Spirit" I'm referring to happens only to those called to prophesy.

Being taken from one place to another in visions by God and His Spirit.

Ezekiel 8:3He stretched out what looked like a hand and took me by the hair of my head. Then the Spirit lifted me up between earth and heaven and carried me in visions of God to Jerusalem, to the entrance of the north gate of the inner court, where the idol that provokes jealousy was seated.

Ezekiel 11:24And the Spirit lifted me up and brought me in the vision by the Spirit of God into Chaldea, to the exiles. Then the vision that I had seen went up from me.

Ezekiel 40:2In visions of God He took me to the land of Israel and set me on a very high mountain, on whose southern slope was a structure that resembled a city.
Rev 21:10And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great, high mountain, and showed me the holy city Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God,

Ezekiel 43:3And the vision I saw was just like the vision that I had seen when he came to destroy the city, and just like the vision that I had seen by the Chebar canal. And I fell on my face. 4As the glory of the Lord entered the temple by the gate facing east, 5the Spirit lifted me up and brought me into the inner court; and behold, the glory of the Lord filled the temple.

Jeffrey Bowden · Mar 10, 2025

Ed Parenteau said:
One can see and hear in a dream also. So what's the difference?
Genesis 28:12And he dreamed, and behold, there was a ladder set up on the earth, and the top of it reached to heaven. And behold, the angels of God were ascending and descending on it! 13And behold, the Lord stood above it and said, “I am the Lord, the God of Abraham your father and the God of Isaac. The land on which you lie I will give to you and to your offspring.
Matthew 1:20But as he considered these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not fear to take Mary as your wife, for that which is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit.

Then let's take a look at other visions recorded in the bible in the Spirit. The kind of "in the Spirit" I'm referring to happens only to those called to prophesy.

Being taken from one place to another in visions by God and His Spirit.

Ezekiel 8:3He stretched out what looked like a hand and took me by the hair of my head. Then the Spirit lifted me up between earth and heaven and carried me in visions of God to Jerusalem, to the entrance of the north gate of the inner court, where the idol that provokes jealousy was seated.

Ezekiel 11:24And the Spirit lifted me up and brought me in the vision by the Spirit of God into Chaldea, to the exiles. Then the vision that I had seen went up from me.

Ezekiel 40:2In visions of God He took me to the land of Israel and set me on a very high mountain, on whose southern slope was a structure that resembled a city.
Rev 21:10And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great, high mountain, and showed me the holy city Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God,

Ezekiel 43:3And the vision I saw was just like the vision that I had seen when he came to destroy the city, and just like the vision that I had seen by the Chebar canal. And I fell on my face. 4As the glory of the Lord entered the temple by the gate facing east, 5the Spirit lifted me up and brought me into the inner court; and behold, the glory of the Lord filled the temple.

Ed, the indoctrination of apostle John into the Revelation of Jesus Christ was a unique program. God sent one angel to Patmos, for an extended stay, to expedite the indoctrination of John into the Revelation of Jesus Christ. This was a specific arrangement where one angel would show John specific scenes from the future, that allowed John to see and hear those scenes so he could write about them.

John never had to leave Patmos, and there is proof he never did during this indoctrination. In the first verse of Rev, the one angel sent to John is disclosed: Rev 1:1 (ESV): … He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,

“He made it known” means that one angel revealed ALL of Rev to John on Patmos.

It was a revelation to John by way of supernatural scenes that would unfold right in front of him. The example given is Rev 1:12-16.

John was “in the spirit” by being raptly attentive to the futuristic scenes that were supernaturally unfolding right before him. He would write about each scene, as it unfolded.

John confirmed that one angel showed him ALL of Rev, in Rev 22:8 (ESV): I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed them to me,

One angel was responsible for unveiling Rev to John, on Patmos. All of Rev was revealed to John by futuristic scenes that would unfold before him. That is proven by Rev 1:12-16. That was the model used to show John all the fine details of each scene, including audio. John wrote about what he heard and saw in the most efficient manner there could ever be.

Spiritual Jew · Mar 10, 2025

Jeffrey Bowden said:
Rev 1:1 (ESV): The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants the things that must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,

One angel was sent by God, to John on Patmos, to make “it” known. “It” was ALL of Rev. The writing of Rev was an urgent objective. That was the responsibility of that one angel.

Rev 22:8 (ESV): I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed them to me,

John described his vision as what he heard and saw.

Rev 10:1-2 (ESV): Then I saw another mighty angel coming down from heaven, wrapped in a cloud, with a rainbow over his head, and his face was like the sun, and his legs like pillars of fire. 2 He had a little scroll open in his hand. And he set his right foot on the sea, and his left foot on the land,

Rev 10:1 begins with, “Then I saw …”

John “heard and saw” the supernatural scenes showed to him by one angel. Rev 10:1-2 were written as John was shown those supernatural scenes: they appeared before him, just as in Rev 1:12-16. John was guided by the one angel who went to Patmos specifically to guide John through the entire vision of Rev, while John remained on Patmos.

I’m quoting the Bible. You are making things up. “In the spirit” does not apply to John in the manner you are using it.

You were shown many scriptures which indicate that visions are seen in the mind. In dreams. Do you just ignore those scriptures? Yes, John saw and heard many things. In his mind. Not with his physical eyes.

Jeffrey Bowden · Mar 10, 2025

Spiritual Jew said:
You were shown many scriptures which indicate that visions are seen in the mind. In dreams. Do you just ignore those scriptures? Yes, John saw and heard many things. In his mind. Not with his physical eyes.

You are using the wrong definition of “in the spirit.” In the prevailing context, it means with rapt attention on something very Godly, in front of (you). It has no applicability to “out of body” or “dreamlike state” because John was not about either.

You also keep ignoring the role of the angel sent to John. You keep cutting that angel out of the picture when it serves a central role in all of John’s actions and words. You have a ton of misconceptions on your side.

Here’s some proof:

Rev 1:1 (ESV) … He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,

What is “it?” It’s the Revelation of Jesus Christ and it’s 100% of it because there are no qualifiers to the contrary. So, why don’t you honor that?

One angel was sent to John to SHOW him supernatural and very detailed scenes from the future. It was John’s sole role to listen to, observe and write about each scene. All that is proven in Rev 9-16, the first scene shown to John.

Those verses prove how the vision was delivered. When will you accept that?

Ed Parenteau · Mar 10, 2025

Jeffrey Bowden said:
Ed, the indoctrination of apostle John into the Revelation of Jesus Christ was a unique program. God sent one angel to Patmos, for an extended stay, to expedite the indoctrination of John into the Revelation of Jesus Christ. This was a specific arrangement where one angel would show John specific scenes from the future, that allowed John to see and hear those scenes so he could write about them.

John never had to leave Patmos, and there is proof he never did during this indoctrination. In the first verse of Rev, the one angel sent to John is disclosed: Rev 1:1 (ESV): … He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,

“He made it known” means that one angel revealed ALL of Rev to John on Patmos.

It was a revelation to John by way of supernatural scenes that would unfold right in front of him. The example given is Rev 1:12-16.

John was “in the spirit” by being raptly attentive to the futuristic scenes that were supernaturally unfolding right before him. He would write about each scene, as it unfolded.

John confirmed that one angel showed him ALL of Rev, in Rev 22:8 (ESV): I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed them to me,

One angel was responsible for unveiling Rev to John, on Patmos. All of Rev was revealed to John by futuristic scenes that would unfold before him. That is proven by Rev 1:12-16. That was the model used to show John all the fine details of each scene, including audio. John wrote about what he heard and saw in the most efficient manner there could ever be.

There's a reason John says "these things" and not "everything". The reason he says "these things" is because the angel in Rev 21:9 showed him those things which had to do with the "bride of Christ".
Read Rev 21:1-8 where John is already seeing visions when we get to Rev 21:9:9Then came one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues and spoke to me, saying, “Come, I will show you the Bride, the wife of the Lamb.”

Who was showing him what he saw and heard in Rev 21:1-8?

WhoIsLikeGod? · Mar 10, 2025

Dead Eye said:
Where did the Great Multitude come from?

Rev 7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, what are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

Rev 7:13 And *(1st) of the elders (Rev 5:5) answered, saying (participating authority) unto me (John), What are these (the great (significant) multitude) which are arrayed in white (purity) robes (Rev 7:12)? and whence (where did they come from) came they?

Rev 5:5 And *one of the elders says to me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has prevailed to open the book, and to lose its seven seals.

What are these? (Rev Chapters 2&3

Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and languages, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; Rev 7:10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God who sit upon the throne, and to the Lamb.

Rev 7:14-17 And I said to him, Sir, you know. And he said to me, These are they (Tribulation Saints) who came out of great (significant) tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Rev 7:15 Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple (1000-year Kingdom): and he (Jesus) that sits on the throne will dwell among them (New Creation). Rev 7:16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst anymore; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. Rev 7:17 For the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will feed them, and will lead them to living fountains of waters: and God will wipe away all tears from their eyes.

Significant Multitude are Tribulation Saints

Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, you know. And he said to me, these are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.”

Rev 7:14a And I (John) said unto him (1st Elder), Sir, you know. And he said to me (John), These (the significant multitude) are they which came out of great (significant Tribulation (Saints), and have washed their robes,

It’s my belief the Seven Seals take place between the Resurrection and Tribulation. About a Seven Year Period of Time, beginning with the conclusion of the gog war (Ezek 38, 39) and ending with the conclusion of the Seventh Seal (Rev 8:1-5).

Rev 7:14a And I (John) said unto him, Sir, you know. And he said to me (John), These (the great multitude) are they which came out of great tribulation (Saints),

Different Groups of Saints

Christians are Resurrected, Denominationalist remain on Earth

Scourge Saints: Rev 5:8-10 Rev 6:9-11

Tribulation Saints before the Image Rev 7:9-17 Dan 9:27

Beheaded Tribulation Saints: Rev 13:7, 12:6, 14-17, Rev 14:12,13 Rev 15:2-4 Rev 20:4

From Resurrection to the 8th Seal are the group of Scourge Saints: Rev 5:8-10 Rev 6:9-11 (do not enter tribulation)

1st Trumpet until the last thirty days of the 6th Trumpet are a group of Tribulation Saints: Rev 7:9,10, 14-17 (not necessarily beheaded)

From the last thirty days of the 6th Trumpet through the Great Tribulation: Rev 13:7 Rev 14:6,7 Rev 14:9-11 Rev 15:2-4 Rev 20:4 (Image Tribulation Saints these saints are beheaded)

6th Trumpet Kingdom Saints are from the last thirty days of the 6th Trumpet through the Great Tribulation: Rev 12:6, 14-17

Rev 7:14 continues

Rev 7:14b (significant multitude) and made them (robes) white in the blood of the Lamb (tittle of Jesus).

Denominationalists left on Earth that are Victorious through the Word of God and the Testimony of Jesus Christ are given the nineteen gifts offered by Jesus. Rev chapters 2&3

Beginning of Denominationalism Matt 26:14-16 Mark 14:15, 44 Acts 3:14,15 Luke 22:5,6 Luke 22:47,48 unholy kiss John 12:6-money bag Luke 22:5,6 Rev 1:18 3:20 Isa 28:15-18-SCOURGE {Jer 6:30 Luke 18:33 2Tim 3:7-9 Titus 1:16 Rev 2&3})

Nineteen Gifts offered by Jesus to the Membership within the Seven Divisions forming the General Assembly of the Denominational Church system left on Earth:

1st Division Ephesus Rev 2:7 Eat of Tree of Life, Access to Midst of Paradise of God

2nd Division Smyrna Rev 2:10,11 Crown of Life, Escapes 2nd Death.

3rd Division Pergamos Rev 2:17 Hidden Manna, White Stone, New Name

4th Division Thyatira 2:26-29 Power over Nations, Rod of Iron, Morning Star

5th Division Sardis Rev 3:5,6 White Raiment, Eternal Life, Confession

6th Division Philadelphia Rev 3:12,13 Pillar, Rest, Name of God, City of God, New Name Jesus

7th Division Laodicea Rev 3:21,22 Sit with Jesus on Throne

The Blood of the Lamb

Rev 18:24 And in her (Jerusalem) was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

Rev 19:2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he has judged the great harlot (Jerusalem), which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.

Rev 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, you are worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for you were slain, and have redeemed us to God by your blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, how long, O Lord, holy and true, do you not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

Rev 12:11 And they overcame him (son of perdition) by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

The great multitude was all the Gentiles (nations) who came out of the great tribulation. The great tribulation (Mat. 24:21) was the same as the times of the Gentiles (Luk. 21:24), since these two verses are parallel verses of the same Olivet Discourse.

"For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will again (Mat. 24:21)."

"...for there will be great distress upon the land, and wrath to this people; and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled (Luk. 21:23b–24)."

When you match the Olivet Discourse together in Matthew, Mark, and Luke, you see that the great tribulation and the times of the Gentiles are the same. Revelation 7:9–14 follows, that the ones who came out of the great tribulation were Gentiles, not Jews. Hence, "the times of the Gentiles."

Looking further in Revelation reveals that the great tribulation/times of the Gentiles lasted 42 months, a day for each year.

"Leave out the courtyard which is outside the temple and do not measure it, because it has been given to the nations [Gentiles]; and they will trample the holy city for forty-two months (Rev. 11:2)."

Dome of the Rock (AD 688) + 1,260 years (Rev. 11:2) = Israeli Declaration of Independence (AD 1948)

The Dome of the Rock was the abomination of desolation. And according to Matthew and Mark, the great tribulation followed the abomination of desolation.

Imagine the times of the Gentiles only lasting 42 literal months, or 3 1/2 years. Doesn't seem like enough time for the fullness of the Gentiles to come in (Rom. 11:25).

Jeffrey Bowden · Mar 10, 2025

Ed Parenteau said:
There's a reason John says "these things" and not "everything". The reason he says "these things" is because the angel in Rev 21:9 showed him those things which had to do with the "bride of Christ".
Read Rev 21:1-8 where John is already seeing visions when we get to Rev 21:9:9Then came one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues and spoke to me, saying, “Come, I will show you the Bride, the wife of the Lamb.”

Who was showing him what he saw and heard in Rev 21:1-8?

The answer to your question is in the words in bold immediately below. That one angel showed John every supernatural scene from the future, in Rev. John verifies that in the verse immediately below.

Rev 22:8 (ESV): I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed them to me,

“I saw” and “I heard” are key phrases that John used over and over in Rev, to indicate that the angel with him was showing John the current supernatural scene.

Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. 2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling place[a] of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people,[b] and God himself will be with them as their God. 4 He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.”

5 And he who was seated on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” Also he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.” 6 And he said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To the thirsty I will give from the spring of the water of life without payment. 7 The one who conquers will have this heritage, and I will be his God and he will be my son. 8 But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

iamlamad · Mar 11, 2025

WhoIsLikeGod? said:
The great multitude was all the Gentiles (nations) who came out of the great tribulation. The great tribulation (Mat. 24:21) was the same as the times of the Gentiles (Luk. 21:24), since these two verses are parallel verses of the same Olivet Discourse.

"For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will again (Mat. 24:21)."

"...for there will be great distress upon the land, and wrath to this people; and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled (Luk. 21:23b–24)."

When you match the Olivet Discourse together in Matthew, Mark, and Luke, you see that the great tribulation and the times of the Gentiles are the same. Revelation 7:9–14 follows, that the ones who came out of the great tribulation were Gentiles, not Jews. Hence, "the times of the Gentiles."

Looking further in Revelation reveals that the great tribulation/times of the Gentiles lasted 42 months, a day for each year.

"Leave out the courtyard which is outside the temple and do not measure it, because it has been given to the nations [Gentiles]; and they will trample the holy city for forty-two months (Rev. 11:2)."

Dome of the Rock (AD 688) + 1,260 years (Rev. 11:2) = Israeli Declaration of Independence (AD 1948)

The Dome of the Rock was the abomination of desolation. And according to Matthew and Mark, the great tribulation followed the abomination of desolation.

Imagine the times of the Gentiles only lasting 42 literal months, or 3 1/2 years. Doesn't seem like enough time for the fullness of the Gentiles to come in (Rom. 11:25).

I find a problem with this. There was/is/will be, more than one period of time called "great tribulation." Jesus talked about "those days" of "great tribulation," but those two words were not enough to differentiate "those days" He was talking about with other "great tribulation." Jesus said that "then shall be great tribulation,' some unknown time after the abomination. The problem is, in Revelation 7, where this great crowd, too large to number, is written, John has not yet started the Week, much less has he arrived at the midpoint abomination in his narrative. There are three midpoint chapters, each with at least one "countdown" of an event that will begin at or near the midpoint and "count down" to the end of the week. This would be chapters 11, 12, and 13. In Revelation, John does not begin "those days" of "great tribulation" until late in Chapter 14. Therefore, the "great tribulation" in Chapter 7 cannot be about the days of great tribulation Jesus spoke of.
Rather, I believe God was calling their lives on earth before they were born again, as "mega" or great tribulation, perhaps adding up all their individual "tribulation" for this great crowd.

Jeffrey Bowden · Mar 11, 2025

Ed Parenteau said:
There's a reason John says "these things" and not "everything". The reason he says "these things" is because the angel in Rev 21:9 showed him those things which had to do with the "bride of Christ".
Read Rev 21:1-8 where John is already seeing visions when we get to Rev 21:9:9Then came one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues and spoke to me, saying, “Come, I will show you the Bride, the wife of the Lamb.”

Who was showing him what he saw and heard in Rev 21:1-8?

Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. 2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling place[a] of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people,[b] and God himself will be with them as their God. 4 He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.”

5 And he who was seated on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” Also he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.” 6 And he said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To the thirsty I will give from the spring of the water of life without payment. 7 The one who conquers will have this heritage, and I will be his God and he will be my son. 8 But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

iamlamad said:
I find a problem with this. There was/is/will be, more than one period of time called "great tribulation." Jesus talked about "those days" of "great tribulation," but those two words were not enough to differentiate "those days" He was talking about with other "great tribulation." Jesus said that "then shall be great tribulation,' some unknown time after the abomination. The problem is, in Revelation 7, where this great crowd, too large to number, is written, John has not yet started the Week, much less has he arrived at the midpoint abomination in his narrative. There are three midpoint chapters, each with at least one "countdown" of an event that will begin at or near the midpoint and "count down" to the end of the week. This would be chapters 11, 12, and 13. In Revelation, John does not begin "those days" of "great tribulation" until late in Chapter 14. Therefore, the "great tribulation" in Chapter 7 cannot be about the days of great tribulation Jesus spoke of.
Rather, I believe God was calling their lives on earth before they were born again, as "mega" or great tribulation, perhaps adding up all their individual "tribulation" for this great crowd.

Rev 7:9–17 do span the 7-year Trib. Please read Rev 7:16. The “famine” spoken of is in Rev 6:8 and the scorching heat is in Rev 16:8-9.

All of the GM (great multitude) are former unbelievers. We know this because they were subjected to God’s wrath in the Trib (Rev 7:16). They later came to their senses, and responded to the need to repent. It will be the “144k” (Rev 7:1-8) who conduct the greatest revival in the Trib. That’s how the GM will become new converts. The first word out of the mouths of the GM, once they were in Heaven, is “Salvation!” Please see Rev 7:10. That is the GM, in Heaven, and thanking God for their salvation, and their removal from the Trib.

WhoIsLikeGod? · Mar 11, 2025

iamlamad said:
I find a problem with this. There was/is/will be, more than one period of time called "great tribulation." Jesus talked about "those days" of "great tribulation," but those two words were not enough to differentiate "those days" He was talking about with other "great tribulation." Jesus said that "then shall be great tribulation,' some unknown time after the abomination. The problem is, in Revelation 7, where this great crowd, too large to number, is written, John has not yet started the Week, much less has he arrived at the midpoint abomination in his narrative. There are three midpoint chapters, each with at least one "countdown" of an event that will begin at or near the midpoint and "count down" to the end of the week. This would be chapters 11, 12, and 13. In Revelation, John does not begin "those days" of "great tribulation" until late in Chapter 14. Therefore, the "great tribulation" in Chapter 7 cannot be about the days of great tribulation Jesus spoke of.
Rather, I believe God was calling their lives on earth before they were born again, as "mega" or great tribulation, perhaps adding up all their individual "tribulation" for this great crowd.

Yeshua said, "For then there will be A great tribulation [not just great tribulation], such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will again (Mat. 24:21 NASB)."

He was quoting the prophet Daniel, as seen in Mat. 24:15, when he said, "Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place—"

The abomination of desolation was first spoken of in Dan. 9:27. Yeshua again quoted Daniel when He spoke of the great tribulation in His Olivet Discourse: "Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued (Dan. 12:1)."

The Muslim conquest of the Levant in AD 638 laid the foundation for Jerusalem's Islamization and the great tribulation. Officially, this lasted until 1948 when Israel became a sovereign nation in its own ancestral homeland.

The great tribulation also overlapped, but was not defined by, the Dark Ages (AD 476–1453), which were marked by economic, intellectual, and cultural decline.

"Those days" that Yeshua referred to was the great tribulation such as never occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will again, which immediately followed the abomination of desolation in AD 688 and which lasted 1,260 years.

This is confirmed in Dan. 12:7 when the man dressed in linen swore that it would be for a time, times, and half a time; and as soon as they finish smashing the power of the holy people, all these events will be completed.

The holy people are God's chosen people, the Jews. All these events were completed by 1948 after "they" finished smashing the Jews' power in the Holocaust.

A time = 1 year
Times = 2 years
Half a time = 1/2 year

A time, times, and half a time = 3 1/2 years
* 12 mos./yr. = 42 months
* 30 days/mo. = 1,260 days

This matches up with Rev. 11:2, which says "Leave out the courtyard which is outside the temple and do not measure it, because it has been given to the nations [Gentiles]; and they will trample the holy city for forty-two months."

I don't see any tribulation in chapters 11, 13, or 14 of Revelation, let alone "the great tribulation." The only time THE great tribulation is mentioned is in Dan. 12:1, Mat. 24:21, Mrk. 13:19, and Rev. 7:14. I DO see the great tribulation in Rev. 12, however. The woman fled into the wilderness where she had a place prepared by God, so that there she would be nourished for 1,260 days (Rev. 12:6). These are the same 1,260 years from AD 688 to 1948 established by the day-year principle. And these are the same 1,260 years referred to in the following verse: "And when the dragon saw that he was thrown down to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male Child. But the two wings of the great eagle were given to the woman, so that she could fly into the wilderness to her place, where she was nourished for a time, times, and half a time, away from the presence of the serpent (Rev. 12:13–14)."

This war in heaven, with Michael and his angels waging war with the dragon (Rev. 12:7), is the same 1,260-year period mentioned in Dan. 12:1—"Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise," which, if you remember, lasted a time, times, and half a time (Dan. 12:7).

The great sign in heaven (Rev. 12:1–2) is the same as the sign of the Son of Man (Mat. 24:30) and occurred on September 23, 2017.

It is one of the last signs to behold before the Son of Man comes on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. Seventy-four days later, on December 6, the United States officially recognized Jerusalem as the capital of Israel.

The sign of the red dragon (Rev. 12:3–4) occurred on October 9, 1946 as the October Draconids.

1946PASP...58..362C Page 362

WhoIsLikeGod? · Mar 11, 2025

Jeffrey Bowden said:
...the 7-year Trib.

What do you define as the great tribulation and where do you get 7 years?

Where is the Great Multitude from Rev 7:13,14

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