Where is the Great Multitude from Rev 7:13,14

[Ed Parenteau]

Rev 11:12 (ESV):

Wrong. John wrote about what he saw and what he heard in his vision. You need to know that he saw the future by the extraordinary vision that only God could create for him.

Regarding “Come up here:” Here is Rev 11:12 (ESV): Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here!” And they went up to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies watched them.

“Come up here” is exclaimed in Rev 11:12.

Here’s 1 Th 4:16 (NIV): For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

That loud command will be “Come up here!”

In the pre-Trib rapture, we will be loudly commanded to “Come up here!”

You're the one who said John "merely wrote it", not me.
This is how I interpret
Rev 4:1
(after John gives the tribulation, kingdom and perseverance in Christ messages Rev1:9 to the 7 churches in Asia he looks and sees a door standing open in heaven), After this I looked and behold, a door standing open in heaven! And the first voice, which I had heard speaking to me like a trumpet (Rev 1:10), said, (to John) “Come up here, and I(first voice) will show you (John) what "must" (emphatic present tense verb) take place after this.” This harmonizes perfectly with Rev 1:19
Write therefore the things that you have seen, those that are and those that are to take place after this. Both the things that are and those things that take place after this are in the present tense. You can see it in the following "literal translations" more clearly.
Literal Standard Version
Write the things that you have seen, and the things that are, and the things that are about to come after these things;

Berean Literal Bible
Therefore write the things that you have seen, and the things that are, and the things that are about to take place after these,

Young's Literal Translation
'Write the things that thou hast seen, and the things that are, and the things that are about to come after these things;

Smith's Literal Translation
Write the things thou hast seen, and which are, and which are about to be after these things;

Personally, I will never see this as about to take place thousands or millions of years later.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

You're the one who said John "merely wrote it", not me.
This is how I interpret
Rev 4:1
(after John gives the tribulation, kingdom and perseverance in Christ messages Rev1:9 to the 7 churches in Asia he looks and sees a door standing open in heaven), After this I looked and behold, a door standing open in heaven! And the first voice, which I had heard speaking to me like a trumpet (Rev 1:10), said, (to John) “Come up here, and I(first voice) will show you (John) what "must" (emphatic present tense verb) take place after this.” This harmonizes perfectly with Rev 1:19
Write therefore the things that you have seen, those that are and those that are to take place after this. Both the things that are and those things that take place after this are in the present tense. You can see it in the following "literal translations" more clearly.
Literal Standard Version
Write the things that you have seen, and the things that are, and the things that are about to come after these things;

Berean Literal Bible
Therefore write the things that you have seen, and the things that are, and the things that are about to take place after these,

Young's Literal Translation
'Write the things that thou hast seen, and the things that are, and the things that are about to come after these things;

Smith's Literal Translation
Write the things thou hast seen, and which are, and which are about to be after these things;

Personally, I will never see this as about to take place thousands or millions of years later.

Are you a Preterist? You need to heed what is written in Rev 4:1 (ESV): After this I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven! And the first voice, which I had heard speaking to me like a trumpet, said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.”

All of Rev 4 through Rev 22 is in the future. Rev 3:10 is also in the future. John merely wrote down what he saw and heard in his vision, a vision of the future.

In Rev 4:1, "Come up here" is only exclaimed upon the pre-Trib rapture. John merely wrote about that.

Also in Rev 4:1 (ESV): "... what must take place after this" is what will take place after the pre-Trib rapture. Again, John wrote all of Rev, never having left Patmos. Rev 1:1 and Rev 22:8 prove it.

 

[Ed Parenteau]

Are you a Preterist? You need to heed what is written in Rev 4:1 (ESV): After this I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven! And the first voice, which I had heard speaking to me like a trumpet, said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.”

All of Rev 4 through Rev 22 is in the future. Rev 3:10 is also in the future. John merely wrote down what he saw and heard in his vision, a vision of the future.

In Rev 4:1, "Come up here" is only exclaimed upon the pre-Trib rapture. John merely wrote about that.

Also in Rev 4:1 (ESV): "... what must take place after this" is what will take place after the pre-Trib rapture. Again, John wrote all of Rev, never having left Patmos. Rev 1:1 and Rev 22:8 prove it.

It's the future of John and the churches of his day. There is no "pre trib" rapture of the church no matter how many times you name it and claim it. There is literally no verse that says there is, and many that make it impossible. Like the following. You're spreading the same rumor they did.
Going back to John's gospel, Peter asks the Lord about John. John 21:22Jesus answered, “If I want him to remain until I return, what is that to you? You follow Me!” 23Because of this, the rumor spread among the brothers that this disciple would not die. However, Jesus did not say that he would not die, but only, “If I want him to remain until I return, what is that to you?”
1 Th 4:17
Matthew 16:27-28
27For the Son of Man is going to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay each person according to what he has done. 28Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”
Revelation 22:12
“Behold, I am coming soon, and My reward is with Me, to give to each one according to what he has done.

There is no such thing as the end of the church age. Ephesians3: 20Now to him who is able to do far more abundantly than all that we ask or think, according to the power at work within us, 21to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, forever and ever. Amen.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

It's the future of John and the churches of his day. There is no "pre trib" rapture of the church no matter how many times you name it and claim it. There is literally no verse that says there is, and many that make it impossible. Like the following. You're spreading the same rumor they did.
Going back to John's gospel, Peter asks the Lord about John. John 21:22Jesus answered, “If I want him to remain until I return, what is that to you? You follow Me!” 23Because of this, the rumor spread among the brothers that this disciple would not die. However, Jesus did not say that he would not die, but only, “If I want him to remain until I return, what is that to you?”
1 Th 4:17
Matthew 16:27-28
27For the Son of Man is going to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay each person according to what he has done. 28Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”
Revelation 22:12
“Behold, I am coming soon, and My reward is with Me, to give to each one according to what he has done.

There is no such thing as the end of the church age. Ephesians3: 20Now to him who is able to do far more abundantly than all that we ask or think, according to the power at work within us, 21to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, forever and ever. Amen.

Rev 4:1 occurs before the Trib starts. The Trib starts at Rev 6:1-2. 1 Th 5:2-3 occur immediately after Rev 6:1-2.

Rev 4:1 is the pre-Trib rapture of the Church. It aligns perfectly with 1 Th 4:16-17.

 

[Ed Parenteau]

Rev 4:1 occurs before the Trib starts. The Trib starts at Rev 6:1-2. 1 Th 5:2-3 occur immediately after Rev 6:1-2.

Rev 4:1 is the pre-Trib rapture of the Church. It aligns perfectly with 1 Th 4:16-17.

You're still trying to claim that "ascending to heaven" is the same as "descending from heaven". Could you explain again how descending doesn't really mean descending with scripture to back you up. Otherwise, one would have to conclude your imagination is your replacement for and is equal to scripture.

Matt 24:
9“Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations for my name’s sake.
Where's their pre trib rapture?

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

You're still trying to claim that "ascending to heaven" is the same as "descending from heaven". Could you explain again how descending doesn't really mean descending with scripture to back you up. Otherwise, one would have to conclude your imagination is your replacement for and is equal to scripture.

Matt 24:
9“Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations for my name’s sake.
Where's their pre trib rapture?

I said Rev 4:1 perfectly matches 1 Th 4:16-17. Rev 4:1 is a summary of 1 Th 4:16-17. In 1 Th 4:16, we hear a shout. in 1 Th 4:17 we ascend into heavenly clouds to meet Jesus. Rev 4:1 is that same shout, and the command "Come up here" is about what happens 1 Th 4:17. Rev 4:1 makes it crystal clear we meet Jesus in Heaven. His descent is from His throne.

Matt 24:9 is about Jews who are not raptured. Those Jews are also referred to in Matt 24:22, which is well into the Trib. Rev 12:17 is about Matt 24:16, another verse about Jews during the Trib. .

Ed, at least 70% of the Bible is about Jews. We fit under the Ten Commandments and other verses about life and its trials and tribulations (everyday life as a Christian). We all fit under 1 Th 5:16-18.

Rev 6:15-17 are about the 6th seal. Read those verses and you will find them about "everyone" on Earth (Rev 6:15). What occurs is they all dramatize their rejection of Jesus. They run to hide in caves and under rocks due to an alleged sighting of Jesus. Ed, is that the behavior of Christians? Everyone on Earth is cited in the 6th seal. There is not one who behaves like a Christian. If we were there and Jesus was sighted, we would run to Jesus and fall on our faces in worship! What does everyone do in the 6th seal? They run to hide from Jesus and they mock Him. Ed, everyone on Earth after the Trib starts is an unbeliever. Rev 6:15-17 prove it.

 

[Ed Parenteau]

I said Rev 4:1 perfectly matches 1 Th 4:16-17. Rev 4:1 is a summary of 1 Th 4:16-17. In 1 Th 4:16, we hear a shout. in 1 Th 4:17 we ascend into heavenly clouds to meet Jesus. Rev 4:1 is that same shout, and the command "Come up here" is about what happens 1 Th 4:17. Rev 4:1 makes it crystal clear we meet Jesus in Heaven. His descent is from His throne.

Matt 24:9 is about Jews who are not raptured. Those Jews are also referred to in Matt 24:22, which is well into the Trib. Rev 12:17 is about Matt 24:16, another verse about Jews during the Trib. .

Ed, at least 70% of the Bible is about Jews. We fit under the Ten Commandments and other verses about life and its trials and tribulations (everyday life as a Christian). We all fit under 1 Th 5:16-18.

Rev 6:15-17 are about the 6th seal. Read those verses and you will find them about "everyone" on Earth (Rev 6:15). What occurs is they all dramatize their rejection of Jesus. They run to hide in caves and under rocks due to an alleged sighting of Jesus. Ed, is that the behavior of Christians? Everyone on Earth is cited in the 6th seal. There is not one who behaves like a Christian. If we were there and Jesus was sighted, we would run to Jesus and fall on our faces in worship! What does everyone do in the 6th seal? They run to hide from Jesus and they mock Him. Ed, everyone on Earth after the Trib starts is an unbeliever. Rev 6:15-17 prove it.

The very first Christians aside from the apostles, were the Jews of the 12 tribes from every nation under heaven whom James calls "firstfruits".
Acts 2:5Now there were dwelling in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven.
James 1:1James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ,
To the twelve tribes in the Dispersion:
Greetings. 18Of his own will he brought us forth by the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

What the bible calls these 144,000 is this:
Rev14:4It is these who have not defiled themselves with women, for they are virgins. It is these who follow the Lamb wherever he goes. These have been redeemed from mankind as firstfruits for God and the Lamb,
They are the firstfruits that James called them.
They are not, nor ever were called "firstfruits of the great tribulation" like I've heard so many say. These are the very first Christians from the 12 tribes of Israel. They went into and came out of "great tribulation".

There are no more 12 tribes of Israel.

Once the church begins, it never ends.
Isaiah 9:
6For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given;
and the government shall be upon his shoulder,
and his name shall be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
7Of the increase of his government and of peace
there will be no end,
on the throne of David and over his kingdom,
to establish it and to uphold it
with justice and with righteousness
from this time forth and forevermore.
The zeal of the Lord of hosts will do this.

Ephesians 3:20Now to him who is able to do far more abundantly than all that we ask or think, according to the power at work within us, 21to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, forever and ever. Amen.

Daniel 2:44And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that shall never be destroyed, nor shall the kingdom be left to another people. It shall break in pieces all these kingdoms and bring them to an end, and it shall stand forever,

Whatever happened to those 4 kingdoms? Babylonian empire, Medo-Persian Empire, Grecian Empire and the Roman Empire?
And which kingdom is left?
They've all been broken up into pieces(many nations) and only Christ's kingdom is left and is now the largest kingdom that ever was.

As to 1 Th 4:16. The Resurrection takes place first. The cry of command is to raise the dead. It's a military term.
Where in Rev 4:1 Does Christ descend from heaven with the military cry of command to raise the dead?

As to 1 Th 4:17
"Then" means sometime afterwards. Here are a few of Paul's uses of this word.
Galatians 1:18 Adv
GRK: Ἔπειτα μετὰ τρία
NAS: Then three years
KJV: Then after three
INT: Then after three

Galatians 1:21 Adv
GRK: ἔπειτα ἦλθον εἰς
NAS: Then I went into the regions
KJV: Afterwards I came into
INT: Then I came into

Galatians 2:1 Adv
GRK: Ἔπειτα διὰ δεκατεσσάρων
NAS: Then after an interval of fourteen
KJV: Then fourteen years
INT: Then after fourteen

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Adv
GRK: ἔπειτα ἡμεῖς οἱ
NAS: Then we who are alive and remain
KJV: Then we which
INT: then we the

So, some time after the resurrection, there were those who were alive and remained
Here's what remain means:
Strong's Lexicon
perileipomai: To remain, to be left behind
Original Word: περιλείπομαι
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: perileipomai
Pronunciation: pe-ri-LEI-po-mai
Phonetic Spelling: (per-ee-li'-po)
Definition: To remain, to be left behind
Meaning: I leave behind; pass: I am left behind, remain, survive.

Then they who remain after the resurrection "will be caught up" The future tense ascribed to those remaining after the resurrection.
There's no cry of command for those who were left behind and therefor no connection whatsoever to Rev 4:1

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

The very first Christians aside from the apostles, were the Jews of the 12 tribes from every nation under heaven whom James calls "firstfruits".
Acts 2:5Now there were dwelling in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven.
James 1:1James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ,
To the twelve tribes in the Dispersion:
Greetings. 18Of his own will he brought us forth by the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

What the bible calls these 144,000 is this:
Rev14:4It is these who have not defiled themselves with women, for they are virgins. It is these who follow the Lamb wherever he goes. These have been redeemed from mankind as firstfruits for God and the Lamb,
They are the firstfruits that James called them.
They are not, nor ever were called "firstfruits of the great tribulation" like I've heard so many say. These are the very first Christians from the 12 tribes of Israel. They went into and came out of "great tribulation".

There are no more 12 tribes of Israel.

Once the church begins, it never ends.
Isaiah 9:
6For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given;
and the government shall be upon his shoulder,
and his name shall be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
7Of the increase of his government and of peace
there will be no end,
on the throne of David and over his kingdom,
to establish it and to uphold it
with justice and with righteousness
from this time forth and forevermore.
The zeal of the Lord of hosts will do this.

Ephesians 3:20Now to him who is able to do far more abundantly than all that we ask or think, according to the power at work within us, 21to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, forever and ever. Amen.

Daniel 2:44And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that shall never be destroyed, nor shall the kingdom be left to another people. It shall break in pieces all these kingdoms and bring them to an end, and it shall stand forever,

Whatever happened to those 4 kingdoms? Babylonian empire, Medo-Persian Empire, Grecian Empire and the Roman Empire?
And which kingdom is left?
They've all been broken up into pieces(many nations) and only Christ's kingdom is left and is now the largest kingdom that ever was.

As to 1 Th 4:16. The Resurrection takes place first. The cry of command is to raise the dead. It's a military term.
Where in Rev 4:1 Does Christ descend from heaven with the military cry of command to raise the dead?

As to 1 Th 4:17
"Then" means sometime afterwards. Here are a few of Paul's uses of this word.
Galatians 1:18 Adv
GRK: Ἔπειτα μετὰ τρία
NAS: Then three years
KJV: Then after three
INT: Then after three

Galatians 1:21 Adv
GRK: ἔπειτα ἦλθον εἰς
NAS: Then I went into the regions
KJV: Afterwards I came into
INT: Then I came into

Galatians 2:1 Adv
GRK: Ἔπειτα διὰ δεκατεσσάρων
NAS: Then after an interval of fourteen
KJV: Then fourteen years
INT: Then after fourteen

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Adv
GRK: ἔπειτα ἡμεῖς οἱ
NAS: Then we who are alive and remain
KJV: Then we which
INT: then we the

So, some time after the resurrection, there were those who were alive and remained
Here's what remain means:
Strong's Lexicon
perileipomai: To remain, to be left behind
Original Word: περιλείπομαι
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: perileipomai
Pronunciation: pe-ri-LEI-po-mai
Phonetic Spelling: (per-ee-li'-po)
Definition: To remain, to be left behind
Meaning: I leave behind; pass: I am left behind, remain, survive.

Then they who remain after the resurrection "will be caught up" The future tense ascribed to those remaining after the resurrection.
There's no cry of command for those who were left behind and therefor no connection whatsoever to Rev 4:1

Acts 11:26 (NIV): and when he found him, he brought him to Antioch. So for a whole year Barnabas and Saul met with the church and taught great numbers of people. The disciples were called Christians first at Antioch.

The first Christians were the disciples. We can agree on that. How about that?

The 144k are first introduced in Rev 7:1-8. They are recruits from the 12 tribes to effect the greatest revival in the Trib. The Trib is a future event that has not yet occurred: Rev 6:1-2 will begin the Trib. The Trib will end upon Matt 24:29.

During the Trib, the greatest revival will result in the saving of a great multitude ("GM"). The GM is first mentioned in Rev 7:9-17. Therefore, you have the 144k being sealed servants of God (Rev 7:2-4), then years pass and the GM is seen in Heaven in Rev 7:9.

Rev 6:15-17 prove there are no believers who enter the Trib.

The GM is composed of new converts from the Trib beginning in the 2nd or 4th seal. The worldwide wars in the 2nd seal create millions of dead unbelievers across the globe. The 4th seal causes even more carnage. Fully 25% of the world's population of unbelievers are killed in a very short period of time. This fast rate of worldwide killing will probably be hastened by nuclear war.

Within the 2nd seal, the world descends into a "kill or be killed" mentality. Many see the light and repent. Then, for later giving testimony of the saving power of Jesus Christ, all those new converts are murdered. The 5th seal is about the millions of martyrs from the 2nd and 4th seals. Please read Rev 6:9-11. The first martyrs from the Trib cry out to have their deaths avenged. What happens next is in Rev 6:11 (ESV): Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brothers should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.

Those "fellow servants and their brothers" are killed well into the GT (great tribulation -- the second half of the Trib). They are all found in Rev 20:4. All the martyrs are resurrected together in the last sentence of Rev 20:4. They appear next, in Heaven, in Rev 7:9-10 (ESV): After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10 and crying out with a loud voice, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!”

The first thing the GM does in Heaven is thank God for their salvation. The GM is millions of new converts from the Trib, facilitated by the very hard working 144k.

To prove that all of the GM are former unbelievers, please read Rev 7:16 (ESV):
They shall hunger no more, neither thirst anymore;
the sun shall not strike them,
nor any scorching heat.

The "famine" in the Trib begins in Rev 6:8. The "scorching heat" occurs in Rev 16:8-9. Therefore, the 144k are active in the Trib from no later than the 4th seal into the bowl judgements in Rev 16. The GM is thereby proven to be new converts from the Trib as only unbelievers will be subjected to God's wrath in the Trib.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

You're the one who said John "merely wrote it", not me.
This is how I interpret
Rev 4:1
(after John gives the tribulation, kingdom and perseverance in Christ messages Rev1:9 to the 7 churches in Asia he looks and sees a door standing open in heaven), After this I looked and behold, a door standing open in heaven! And the first voice, which I had heard speaking to me like a trumpet (Rev 1:10), said, (to John) “Come up here, and I(first voice) will show you (John) what "must" (emphatic present tense verb) take place after this.” This harmonizes perfectly with Rev 1:19
Write therefore the things that you have seen, those that are and those that are to take place after this. Both the things that are and those things that take place after this are in the present tense. You can see it in the following "literal translations" more clearly.
Literal Standard Version
Write the things that you have seen, and the things that are, and the things that are about to come after these things;

Berean Literal Bible
Therefore write the things that you have seen, and the things that are, and the things that are about to take place after these,

Young's Literal Translation
'Write the things that thou hast seen, and the things that are, and the things that are about to come after these things;

Smith's Literal Translation
Write the things thou hast seen, and which are, and which are about to be after these things;

Personally, I will never see this as about to take place thousands or millions of years later.

Ed, throughout Rev, John uses the phrases "I heard" and "I saw." Those are statements about what one angel was showing John in his vision, that included audio.

Rev 1:1 and Rev 22:8 are unassailable proof that John was on Patmos the whole time during his vision, a vision that was shown to him by one angel. It is therefore true that John wrote about Rev 4:1 just as he wrote about everything else in Rev.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

The very first Christians aside from the apostles, were the Jews of the 12 tribes from every nation under heaven whom James calls "firstfruits".
Acts 2:5Now there were dwelling in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven.
James 1:1James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ,
To the twelve tribes in the Dispersion:
Greetings. 18Of his own will he brought us forth by the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

What the bible calls these 144,000 is this:
Rev14:4It is these who have not defiled themselves with women, for they are virgins. It is these who follow the Lamb wherever he goes. These have been redeemed from mankind as firstfruits for God and the Lamb,
They are the firstfruits that James called them.
They are not, nor ever were called "firstfruits of the great tribulation" like I've heard so many say. These are the very first Christians from the 12 tribes of Israel. They went into and came out of "great tribulation".

There are no more 12 tribes of Israel.

Once the church begins, it never ends.
Isaiah 9:
6For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given;
and the government shall be upon his shoulder,
and his name shall be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
7Of the increase of his government and of peace
there will be no end,
on the throne of David and over his kingdom,
to establish it and to uphold it
with justice and with righteousness
from this time forth and forevermore.
The zeal of the Lord of hosts will do this.

Ephesians 3:20Now to him who is able to do far more abundantly than all that we ask or think, according to the power at work within us, 21to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, forever and ever. Amen.

Daniel 2:44And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that shall never be destroyed, nor shall the kingdom be left to another people. It shall break in pieces all these kingdoms and bring them to an end, and it shall stand forever,

Whatever happened to those 4 kingdoms? Babylonian empire, Medo-Persian Empire, Grecian Empire and the Roman Empire?
And which kingdom is left?
They've all been broken up into pieces(many nations) and only Christ's kingdom is left and is now the largest kingdom that ever was.

As to 1 Th 4:16. The Resurrection takes place first. The cry of command is to raise the dead. It's a military term.
Where in Rev 4:1 Does Christ descend from heaven with the military cry of command to raise the dead?

As to 1 Th 4:17
"Then" means sometime afterwards. Here are a few of Paul's uses of this word.
Galatians 1:18 Adv
GRK: Ἔπειτα μετὰ τρία
NAS: Then three years
KJV: Then after three
INT: Then after three

Galatians 1:21 Adv
GRK: ἔπειτα ἦλθον εἰς
NAS: Then I went into the regions
KJV: Afterwards I came into
INT: Then I came into

Galatians 2:1 Adv
GRK: Ἔπειτα διὰ δεκατεσσάρων
NAS: Then after an interval of fourteen
KJV: Then fourteen years
INT: Then after fourteen

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Adv
GRK: ἔπειτα ἡμεῖς οἱ
NAS: Then we who are alive and remain
KJV: Then we which
INT: then we the

So, some time after the resurrection, there were those who were alive and remained
Here's what remain means:
Strong's Lexicon
perileipomai: To remain, to be left behind
Original Word: περιλείπομαι
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: perileipomai
Pronunciation: pe-ri-LEI-po-mai
Phonetic Spelling: (per-ee-li'-po)
Definition: To remain, to be left behind
Meaning: I leave behind; pass: I am left behind, remain, survive.

Then they who remain after the resurrection "will be caught up" The future tense ascribed to those remaining after the resurrection.
There's no cry of command for those who were left behind and therefor no connection whatsoever to Rev 4:1

The very first Christians aside from the apostles, were the Jews of the 12 tribes from every nation under heaven whom James calls "firstfruits".
Acts 2:5Now there were dwelling in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven.
James 1:1James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ,
To the twelve tribes in the Dispersion:
Greetings. 18Of his own will he brought us forth by the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

What the bible calls these 144,000 is this:
Rev14:4It is these who have not defiled themselves with women, for they are virgins. It is these who follow the Lamb wherever he goes. These have been redeemed from mankind as firstfruits for God and the Lamb,
They are the firstfruits that James called them.
They are not, nor ever were called "firstfruits of the great tribulation" like I've heard so many say. These are the very first Christians from the 12 tribes of Israel. They went into and came out of "great tribulation".

There are no more 12 tribes of Israel.

Once the church begins, it never ends.
Isaiah 9:
6For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given;
and the government shall be upon his shoulder,
and his name shall be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
7Of the increase of his government and of peace
there will be no end,
on the throne of David and over his kingdom,
to establish it and to uphold it
with justice and with righteousness
from this time forth and forevermore.
The zeal of the Lord of hosts will do this.

Ephesians 3:20Now to him who is able to do far more abundantly than all that we ask or think, according to the power at work within us, 21to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, forever and ever. Amen.

Daniel 2:44And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that shall never be destroyed, nor shall the kingdom be left to another people. It shall break in pieces all these kingdoms and bring them to an end, and it shall stand forever,

Whatever happened to those 4 kingdoms? Babylonian empire, Medo-Persian Empire, Grecian Empire and the Roman Empire?
And which kingdom is left?
They've all been broken up into pieces(many nations) and only Christ's kingdom is left and is now the largest kingdom that ever was.

As to 1 Th 4:16. The Resurrection takes place first. The cry of command is to raise the dead. It's a military term.
Where in Rev 4:1 Does Christ descend from heaven with the military cry of command to raise the dead?

As to 1 Th 4:17
"Then" means sometime afterwards. Here are a few of Paul's uses of this word.
Galatians 1:18 Adv
GRK: Ἔπειτα μετὰ τρία
NAS: Then three years
KJV: Then after three
INT: Then after three

Galatians 1:21 Adv
GRK: ἔπειτα ἦλθον εἰς
NAS: Then I went into the regions
KJV: Afterwards I came into
INT: Then I came into

Galatians 2:1 Adv
GRK: Ἔπειτα διὰ δεκατεσσάρων
NAS: Then after an interval of fourteen
KJV: Then fourteen years
INT: Then after fourteen

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Adv
GRK: ἔπειτα ἡμεῖς οἱ
NAS: Then we who are alive and remain
KJV: Then we which
INT: then we the

So, some time after the resurrection, there were those who were alive and remained
Here's what remain means:
Strong's Lexicon
perileipomai: To remain, to be left behind
Original Word: περιλείπομαι
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: perileipomai
Pronunciation: pe-ri-LEI-po-mai
Phonetic Spelling: (per-ee-li'-po)
Definition: To remain, to be left behind
Meaning: I leave behind; pass: I am left behind, remain, survive.

Then they who remain after the resurrection "will be caught up" The future tense ascribed to those remaining after the resurrection.
There's no cry of command for those who were left behind and therefor no connection whatsoever to Rev 4:1

In 1 Th 4:17, the usage of "Then" means "immediately afterward." The rapture is started and completed within nanoseconds.

1 Th 4:16-17 (ESV): For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

The complete sequence includes 1 Cor 15:52 (ESV): in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.

The full sequence: 1 Th 4:16, 1 Cor 15:52, then 1 Th 4:17 -- all in the twinkling of an eye (nanoseconds).

Rev 4:1 (ESV): After this I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven! And the first voice, which I had heard speaking to me like a trumpet, said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.”

Once the trumpet voice of Jesus sounds, the dead in Christ are raised (those are the dead in Christ from Adan & Eve forward). We are all changed (1 Cor 15:52) and we are all in Heaven instantly (Rev 4:1).

Then, the earthly fake news will operate on steroids to deceive the world of unbelievers that all Christians have been abducted by aliens in UFO's.

 

[Ed Parenteau]

The 144k are first introduced in Rev 7:1-8. They are recruits from the 12 tribes to effect the greatest revival in the Trib. The Trib is a future event that has not yet occurred: Rev 6:1-2 will begin the Trib. The Trib will end upon Matt 24:29.

There were 10,000's of thousands of Jews who believed, not just a few. Acts 21:20

In 1 Th 4:17, the usage of "Then" means "immediately afterward." The rapture is started and completed within nanoseconds.

1 Th 4:16-17 (ESV): For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

The complete sequence includes 1 Cor 15:52 (ESV): in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.

The full sequence: 1 Th 4:16, 1 Cor 15:52, then 1 Th 4:17 -- all in the twinkling of an eye (nanoseconds).

Rev 4:1 (ESV): After this I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven! And the first voice, which I had heard speaking to me like a trumpet, said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.”

Once the trumpet voice of Jesus sounds, the dead in Christ are raised (those are the dead in Christ from Adan & Eve forward). We are all changed (1 Cor 15:52) and we are all in Heaven instantly (Rev 4:1).

Then, the earthly fake news will operate on steroids to deceive the world of unbelievers that all Christians have been abducted by aliens in UFO's.

Nope, trying to change definitions of "then" will not help your argument. Strong's Greek: 1899. ἔπειτα (epeita) -- then, thereafter, afterwards The definition you may be looking for is a different Greek word translated into English as "then" also. You can see that "then" used by Paul where he also points out that death is defeated at the resurrection. 1 Corinthians 15:54 When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.” Strong's Greek: 5119. τότε (tote) -- Then, at that time


In 1 Cor 15:52, the change to the living happens simultaneously with the resurrection, in a moment and twinkling of an eye. Paul had just gotten finished saying that "unless it dies, it cannot be raised" and "the body that is sown is not the body that is raised" There is just no such thing as a resurrection of the living. Nowhere found, only imagined, just like imagining this: Then, the earthly fake news will operate on steroids to deceive the world of unbelievers that all Christians have been abducted by aliens in UFO's.
Proverbs 30:
5Every word of God proves true;
he is a shield to those who take refuge in him.
6Do not add to his words,
lest he rebuke you and you be found a liar.
1 Corinthians 4:6I have applied all these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, brothers, that you may learn by us not to go beyond what is written, that none of you may be puffed up in favor of one against another.



The 144,000 were the first to be redeemed to God from among men. Pentecost is the feast of firstfruits of the wheat harvest, so I have no idea how you're claiming there's such a thing as firstfruits of the great tribulation. Not only does the scripture not say that, but it doesn't fulfill anything in the law and the prophets that Jesus came to fulfill Matthew 5:17-18

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

There were 10,000's of thousands of Jews who believed, not just a few. Acts 21:20

Nope, trying to change definitions of "then" will not help your argument. Strong's Greek: 1899. ἔπειτα (epeita) -- then, thereafter, afterwards The definition you may be looking for is a different Greek word translated into English as "then" also. You can see that "then" used by Paul where he also points out that death is defeated at the resurrection. 1 Corinthians 15:54 When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.” Strong's Greek: 5119. τότε (tote) -- Then, at that time


In 1 Cor 15:52, the change to the living happens simultaneously with the resurrection, in a moment and twinkling of an eye. Paul had just gotten finished saying that "unless it dies, it cannot be raised" and "the body that is sown is not the body that is raised" There is just no such thing as a resurrection of the living. Nowhere found, only imagined, just like imagining this: Then, the earthly fake news will operate on steroids to deceive the world of unbelievers that all Christians have been abducted by aliens in UFO's.
Proverbs 30:
5Every word of God proves true;
he is a shield to those who take refuge in him.
6Do not add to his words,
lest he rebuke you and you be found a liar.
1 Corinthians 4:6I have applied all these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, brothers, that you may learn by us not to go beyond what is written, that none of you may be puffed up in favor of one against another.



The 144,000 were the first to be redeemed to God from among men. Pentecost is the feast of firstfruits of the wheat harvest, so I have no idea how you're claiming there's such a thing as firstfruits of the great tribulation. Not only does the scripture not say that, but it doesn't fulfill anything in the law and the prophets that Jesus came to fulfill Matthew 5:17-18

I am not changing the definition of "then" in 1 Th 4:17. These three verses happen instantly, "in the twinkling of an eye:" 1 Th 4:16, 1 Cor 15:52 and then (immediately afterwards) 1 Th 4:17. They all happen so fast, it will be like they happen together.

 

[Ed Parenteau]

I am not changing the definition of "then" in 1 Th 4:17. These three verses happen instantly, "in the twinkling of an eye:" 1 Th 4:16, 1 Cor 15:52 and then (immediately afterwards) 1 Th 4:17. They all happen so fast, it will be like they happen together.

Then show a Lexicon that upholds your definition. You're adding the word immediately because that fits your doctrine. It doesn't fit my doctrine, so I don't need to add it. If it was immediately afterwards, then Paul could have said so.

As to 1Th 4:16 it's when death is defeated.
1 Corinthians 15:
51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must(An emphatic present indicative) be clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.
54When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come to pass: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”
55“Where, O Death, is your victory?
Where, O Death, is your sting?”i
Isaiah 25:8
He will swallow up death forever. The Lord GOD will wipe away the tears from every face and remove the disgrace of His people from the whole earth. For the LORD has spoken.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Then show a Lexicon that upholds your definition. You're adding the word immediately because that fits your doctrine. It doesn't fit my doctrine, so I don't need to add it. If it was immediately afterwards, then Paul could have said so.

As to 1Th 4:16 it's when death is defeated.
1 Corinthians 15:
51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must(An emphatic present indicative) be clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.
54When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come to pass: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”
55“Where, O Death, is your victory?
Where, O Death, is your sting?”i
Isaiah 25:8
He will swallow up death forever. The Lord GOD will wipe away the tears from every face and remove the disgrace of His people from the whole earth. For the LORD has spoken.

This is the biblical sequence of those three verses: 1 Th 4:16, 1 Cor 15:52, 1 Th 4:17. The descent and shout of Jesus' trumpet voice occur in 1 Th 4:16. 1 Cor 15:52's immediacy is triggered by "in the twinkling of an eye." Keeping to the context of 'in the twinkling of an eye," we are instantly taken to Heaven per Rev 4:1.

In 1 Cor 15:52, what does "in the twinkling of an eye" mean?

There are at least three definitions to "then." To fit the context of "in the twinkling of an eye," what is the applicable meaning of "then?"

A definition of then:: next or after that.

Let's look at "next."

Next as an adverb
[a group of children are waiting to ride a pony]

Adult:
Who wants to go next?

Child:
Me! Me!

"Next" as an adverb means immediately after. Therefore, "next or after that" as the meaning of "then" means "immediately after." The context of immediacy comes from 1 Cor 15:52, "in the twinkling of an eye." 1 Th 4:17 is the ticket to Heaven (per Rev 4:1). The context of "in the twinkling of an eye" in 1 Cor 15:52 controls the meaning of "then" in 1 Th 4:17.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Then show a Lexicon that upholds your definition. You're adding the word immediately because that fits your doctrine. It doesn't fit my doctrine, so I don't need to add it. If it was immediately afterwards, then Paul could have said so.

As to 1Th 4:16 it's when death is defeated.
1 Corinthians 15:
51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must(An emphatic present indicative) be clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.
54When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come to pass: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”
55“Where, O Death, is your victory?
Where, O Death, is your sting?”i
Isaiah 25:8
He will swallow up death forever. The Lord GOD will wipe away the tears from every face and remove the disgrace of His people from the whole earth. For the LORD has spoken.

1 Cor 15:52 (ESV): in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.

Jesus has a trumpet voice (Rev 4:1 ESV). He has the voice of an archangel (1 Th 4:16 ESV). The last trumpet (1 Cor 15:52) is the trumpet voice of Jesus, very loud, as the voice of an archangel. What is shouted is in Rev 4:1 (ESV): ... “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.”

Upon that shout like a trumpet, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed (1 Cor 15:52 ESV).

1 Th 4:`17 (ESV): Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

All this occurs in the twinkling of an eye.

 

[Ed Parenteau]

This is the biblical sequence of those three verses: 1 Th 4:16, 1 Cor 15:52, 1 Th 4:17. The descent and shout of Jesus' trumpet voice occur in 1 Th 4:16. 1 Cor 15:52's immediacy is triggered by "in the twinkling of an eye." Keeping to the context of 'in the twinkling of an eye," we are instantly taken to Heaven per Rev 4:1.

In 1 Cor 15:52, what does "in the twinkling of an eye" mean?

There are at least three definitions to "then." To fit the context of "in the twinkling of an eye," what is the applicable meaning of "then?"

A definition of then:: next or after that.

Let's look at "next."

Next as an adverb
[a group of children are waiting to ride a pony]

Adult:
Who wants to go next?

Child:
Me! Me!

"Next" as an adverb means immediately after. Therefore, "next or after that" as the meaning of "then" means "immediately after." The context of immediacy comes from 1 Cor 15:52, "in the twinkling of an eye." 1 Th 4:17 is the ticket to Heaven (per Rev 4:1). The context of "in the twinkling of an eye" in 1 Cor 15:52 controls the meaning of "then" in 1 Th 4:17.

You're looking at an English dictionary and not at a Greek Lexicon. There are several different Greek words translated into English. You have to know which Greek word has which English meaning. Here are several Greek words translated into "then"


Original Word: οὖν Strong's Greek: 3767. οὖν (oun) -- therefore, then, so, consequently
Part of Speech: Conjunction
Transliteration: oun
Definition: therefore, then, so, consequently
Meaning: therefore, then.

Original Word: τότε Strong's Greek: 5119. τότε (tote) -- Then, at that time
Part of Speech: Adverb
Phonetic Spelling: (tot'-eh)
Definition: Then, at that time
Meaning: then, at that time.

Original Word: εἶτα Strong's Greek: 1534. εἶτα (eita) -- then, thereafter, next
Part of Speech: Adverb
Transliteration: eita
Definition: then, thereafter, next
Meaning: then, thereafter, next (marking a fresh stage); therefore, then, furthermore.

This is the "then" used by Paul in 1 Th 4:17
Original Word: ἔπειτα Strong's Greek: 1899. ἔπειτα (epeita) -- then, thereafter, afterwards
Part of Speech: Adverb
Transliteration: epeita
Definition: then, thereafter, afterwards
Meaning: then, thereafter, afterwards.

As to 1 Corinthians 15:52 and the resurrection and the change to the living happen at exactly the same time "in the twinkling of an eye". The resurrection does not happen first in this verse.
Whereas, in 1 Th 4:16, the resurrection happens first because the "rapture" of those who would "remain" happens future to that.
The change to the living is not the rapture. They are separate things.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

You're looking at an English dictionary and not at a Greek Lexicon. There are several different Greek words translated into English. You have to know which Greek word has which English meaning. Here are several Greek words translated into "then"


Original Word: οὖν Strong's Greek: 3767. οὖν (oun) -- therefore, then, so, consequently
Part of Speech: Conjunction
Transliteration: oun
Definition: therefore, then, so, consequently
Meaning: therefore, then.

Original Word: τότε Strong's Greek: 5119. τότε (tote) -- Then, at that time
Part of Speech: Adverb
Phonetic Spelling: (tot'-eh)
Definition: Then, at that time
Meaning: then, at that time.

Original Word: εἶτα Strong's Greek: 1534. εἶτα (eita) -- then, thereafter, next
Part of Speech: Adverb
Transliteration: eita
Definition: then, thereafter, next
Meaning: then, thereafter, next (marking a fresh stage); therefore, then, furthermore.

This is the "then" used by Paul in 1 Th 4:17
Original Word: ἔπειτα Strong's Greek: 1899. ἔπειτα (epeita) -- then, thereafter, afterwards
Part of Speech: Adverb
Transliteration: epeita
Definition: then, thereafter, afterwards
Meaning: then, thereafter, afterwards.

As to 1 Corinthians 15:52 and the resurrection and the change to the living happen at exactly the same time "in the twinkling of an eye". The resurrection does not happen first in this verse.
Whereas, in 1 Th 4:16, the resurrection happens first because the "rapture" of those who would "remain" happens future to that.
The change to the living is not the rapture. They are separate things.

This is the sequence in the Bible from 1 Th 4:16, 1 Cor 15:52, 1 Th 4:17 and Rev 4:1:

In 1 Th 4:16, Jesus will descend from the throne of God; we then hear a shout in Jesus' very loud trumpet voice, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this!” At that moment, in the twinkling of an eye, the dead in Christ are raised in their eternal bodies and we are instantly changed into our eternal bodies. Then (immediately afterwards), we are raptured straight to Heaven by 1 Th 4:17 and Rev 4:1.

 

[Ed Parenteau]

This is the sequence in the Bible from 1 Th 4:16, 1 Cor 15:52, 1 Th 4:17 and Rev 4:1:

In 1 Th 4:16, Jesus will descend from the throne of God; we then hear a shout in Jesus' very loud trumpet voice, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this!” At that moment, in the twinkling of an eye, the dead in Christ are raised in their eternal bodies and we are instantly changed into our eternal bodies. Then (immediately afterwards), we are raptured straight to Heaven by 1 Th 4:17 and Rev 4:1.

In Rev 4:1, prove that the personal pronoun "you" replaces the noun "church" when Jesus says "Come up here, and I will show you", since your claiming He's going to take the church out of the world contrary to Jesus prayer(John17:15-21) and show them "what must take place after this".

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

In Rev 4:1, prove that the personal pronoun "you" replaces the noun "church" when Jesus says "Come up here, and I will show you", since your claiming He's going to take the church out of the world contrary to Jesus prayer(John17:15-21) and show them "what must take place after this".

John 17 is about Jesus preparing His disciples for His ascension. The disciples wanted to follow Jesus to Heaven. Jesus could not allow that. That chapter has nothing to do with the Church and the rapture thereof.

John was never the subject of Rev 4:1. He was on Patmos and his vision was shown to him by one angel. The proof of that is in Rev 1:1 and Rev 22:8. Furthermore, Rev 4:1 contains phrases like "I heard" and "I saw." Those phrases appear in many verses in Rev, and they are always about what John saw and heard in his vision. John wrote the entirety of Rev while on Patmos through the extraordinary vision that revealed the entirety of Rev to him. Therefore, John wrote about Rev 4:1, while on Patmos, just as he did for all of Rev. The word "you" in Rev 4:1 is therefore solely in reference to the Church.

Regarding "you," here's Rev 3:10 (ESV): Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth.

The hour of trial is the 7-year Trib. Only unbelievers enter the Trib and are tried by God's 21 judgments of wrath. Notice in Rev 3:10 how "you" refers to the Church and that "those" refers to "those who dwell on the earth." Jesus was referring to the Trib when only unbelievers will dwell on the earth, That phrase, "those who dwell on the earth" is always about unbelievers on Earth, during the Trib, when used in the context of the Trib. Rev 11:10 is a classic example of only unbelievers being referred to as "those who dwell on the earth" during the Trib. Rev 11:10 (ESV): and those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them and make merry and exchange presents, because these two prophets had been a torment to those who dwell on the earth.

Believers of record as of Rev 4:1 will not enter the Trib. We will be raptured in the twinkling of an eye, straight to Heaven per 1 Th 4:16, 1 Cor 15:52, 1 Th 4:17 and Rev 4:1.

 

[Ed Parenteau]

John 17 is about Jesus preparing His disciples for His ascension. The disciples wanted to follow Jesus to Heaven. Jesus could not allow that. That chapter has nothing to do with the Church and the rapture thereof.

John was never the subject of Rev 4:1. He was on Patmos and his vision was shown to him by one angel. The proof of that is in Rev 1:1 and Rev 22:8. Furthermore, Rev 4:1 contains phrases like "I heard" and "I saw." Those phrases appear in many verses in Rev, and they are always about what John saw and heard in his vision. John wrote the entirety of Rev while on Patmos through the extraordinary vision that revealed the entirety of Rev to him. Therefore, John wrote about Rev 4:1, while on Patmos, just as he did for all of Rev. The word "you" in Rev 4:1 is therefore solely in reference to the Church.

Regarding "you," here's Rev 3:10 (ESV): Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth.

The hour of trial is the 7-year Trib. Only unbelievers enter the Trib and are tried by God's 21 judgments of wrath. Notice in Rev 3:10 how "you" refers to the Church and that "those" refers to "those who dwell on the earth." Jesus was referring to the Trib when only unbelievers will dwell on the earth, That phrase, "those who dwell on the earth" is always about unbelievers on Earth, during the Trib, when used in the context of the Trib. Rev 11:10 is a classic example of only unbelievers being referred to as "those who dwell on the earth" during the Trib. Rev 11:10 (ESV): and those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them and make merry and exchange presents, because these two prophets had been a torment to those who dwell on the earth.

Believers of record as of Rev 4:1 will not enter the Trib. We will be raptured in the twinkling of an eye, straight to Heaven per 1 Th 4:16, 1 Cor 15:52, 1 Th 4:17 and Rev 4:1.

John 17:15I am not asking that You take them out of the world, but that You keep them from the evil one....20I am not asking on behalf of them alone, but also on behalf of those who will believe in Me through their message, 21that all of them may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I am in You. May they also be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.
And this is validated by
Ephesians 3:21to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, forever and ever. Amen.

For you to claim He's preparing the the future church for the Ascension is quite puzzling.

My question to Chat GPT
Who's the antecedent noun in Revelation 4:1 to the pronoun "you"?

ChatGPT said:
In Revelation 4:1, the pronoun "you" appears in the phrase:​

Revelation 4:1 (KJV)
"After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter."

Who is "you" referring to?​

The antecedent noun for "you" (thee, in KJV) is John—the author of Revelation.

• Throughout Revelation, John refers to himself in the first person ("I, me") as the recipient of divine visions.
• The command "Come up hither" is directed to John personally, inviting him to witness heavenly events.

Contextual Confirmation​

• Revelation 1:1 – "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants..."
• Revelation 1:9 – "I, John, who also am your brother..."
• Revelation 1:10-11 – John hears a voice speaking to him, which sets the pattern for Revelation 4:1.

Thus, the antecedent of "you" is John—he is the one being addressed by the heavenly voice.

There's no such thing as a seven year tribulation, and you can't find it, all you can do is claim it. Nor can you find a verse that says the church will be taken out of the world before the tribulation.

If Rev 4:1 is the resurrection the judgement and the dispensational version of the "rapture", then it's also the end of death and the marriage of the lamb. And it's also a black hole where the "church" is never seen nor heard from again.