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Where Is Muhammad Ali Now?

Discussion in 'Christianity and World Religion' started by rockytopva, Jun 6, 2016.

  1. LoAmmi

    LoAmmi Dispassionate

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    You aren't literally a lion, therefore your name prophecy must be fulfilled by someone else.
     
  2. dougangel

    dougangel Regular Supporter

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    Tehillim 22:16
    Orthodox Jewish Bible (OJB)


    16 (17) For kelavim have surrounded me; the Adat Mere’im (congregation of evil men) have enclosed me; ka’aru yadai v’ragelai (they pierced my hands and my feet; see Isa 53:5; Zech 12:10 and medieval Hebrew Scripture manuscripts as well as the Targum HaShivim).

    Orthodox Jewish Bible (OJB)
     
  3. Aryeh Jay

    Aryeh Jay Veteran Supporter CF Senior Ambassador

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    Last edited: Jul 4, 2017
  4. Aryeh Jay

    Aryeh Jay Veteran Supporter CF Senior Ambassador

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  5. Aryeh Jay

    Aryeh Jay Veteran Supporter CF Senior Ambassador

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  6. dougangel

    dougangel Regular Supporter

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    Ok, that verse is controversial I didn't know that.In many of the English translations including the KJV they say pierced. What is your full English translation of that verse ?
    because I have been given 2 already.
     
  7. dougangel

    dougangel Regular Supporter

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    That is an exclusive truth claim.In other words:
    No one gets to God except through Jesus Christ.
     
  8. Aryeh Jay

    Aryeh Jay Veteran Supporter CF Senior Ambassador

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    Last edited: Jul 4, 2017
  9. Niblo

    Niblo Muslim Supporter

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    Work?? ;):)
     
  10. Aryeh Jay

    Aryeh Jay Veteran Supporter CF Senior Ambassador

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    Last edited: Jul 4, 2017
  11. Niblo

    Niblo Muslim Supporter

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    No more than you deserve, my brother. No more than you deserve! :p:D
     
  12. Niblo

    Niblo Muslim Supporter

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    Am chillaxing (?) on the southern shore of Loch Ness....in a gentle rain....nobody else around.. and no sound but the wind and the water. Have a nice (working) day! :)
     
  13. dougangel

    dougangel Regular Supporter

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    No it is not surprising. People have different language abilities, research skills and education levels.
    Here's a good website that gives a good explanation of the controversy and has helped me understand the language translation problem.

    Does Psalm 22 Prophesy the Crucifixion of Christ?

    Old Testament scholars concede that most of the Hebrew texts available today read “lion,” rather than “pierced.” In some of these manuscripts “pierced” is a marginal note.

    On the other hand, there are Hebrew texts that read “pierced,” with “lion” in the margin. The same variance is reflected in English translations, except that the vast majority of the English versions retain “pierced” in the text, with “lion” relegated to the footnote in some instances (see ASV, RSV, NIV, ESV).

    The two words are strikingly similar in appearance in the original Hebrew text. The only difference between the word translated “like a lion,” and the one rendered “they pierced” is in the length of the upright vowel stroke on the latter word. The two might easily be confused.

    Since the Hebrew had no written vowels — only vowel sounds — some think the confusion may have resulted from a misunderstanding in pronunciation.

    Craigie offers this view and says that the “like a lion” rendition “presents numerous problems and can scarcely be correct” (196). Even the very liberal Interpreter’s Bible, which repudiates the passage as being prophetic of the crucifixion of Christ, says that “like a lion” does not make sense in the context (Sclater, 120).

    Brown, et al., represent the term in this fashion: “they have bored (digged, hewn) my hands and my feet” (468). Professor Baigent of the West London Institute of Higher Education suggests that the standard Massorite Hebrew text, reflecting “like a lion,” “seems to be corrupt” (614). Numerous other scholars concur.

    In addition, we must note that in the Dead Sea Scrolls, which pre-date the common Hebrew texts by a thousand years, the term clearly is “pierced,” not “lion” (VanderKam / Flint, 124).

    Ancient Versions
    The ancient versions (translations of the Hebrew text into various languages) overwhelmingly support the reading “pierced.” This is the case in the Septuagint (Greek version), the Syriac, Vulgate, Arabic, and the Ethiopic.

    One must remember that the Massorite Hebrew text is from the second century A.D., while the Septuagint dates from the third century B.C. There is a very powerful point here, to which Kidner calls attention:

    “A strong argument in its [”pierced"] favor is that the LXX[Septuagint], compiled two centuries before the crucifixion, and therefore an unbiased witness, understood it so" (107).

    So much for our critic’s assertion that “pierced” is a “fundamentalist Christian” contrivance!

    There is another point worthy of consideration.

    In around A.D. 140, a scholar named Aquila, a native of Pontus, produced a Greek translation of the Old Testament, the design of which was to rival the Septuagint. Aquila was an apostate from Christianity who had converted to Judaism. In his translation he seems to have known nothing of the “like a lion” rendition (see Cook, IV, 223).

    Supplementary Old Testament Support
    It need hardly surprise us that the prophets would focus upon the manner of Jesus’ death inasmuch as the Savior had to die in some way by which his “blood” would be shed. The blood is the depository of “life” (Lev. 17:11). By our sins, we have forfeited the right to live (Gen. 2:17; Rom. 6:23).

    Accordingly, in the divine scheme of things, the Son of God was required to give his “life” (blood) if we were to live (Mt. 20:28; 26:28; Rom. 3:21-26) — which he voluntarily and lovingly did.

    In view of this, consider two other Old Testament texts.

    The prophet Isaiah declared: “But he was wounded [”pierced" — Delitzsch, II, 317-18] for our transgressions..." (53:5). Moreover, Zechariah announced, on behalf of the Messiah:

    “And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplication: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced” (12:10; cf. Jn. 19:37).

    As we shall note subsequently, the language of Psalm 22:16 is quite similar — but more specific even.

    New Testament Evidence
    Though the New Testament does not directly quote Psalm 22:16, there is strong circumstantial evidence that the phrase in this passage previews the crucifixion, thus containing an allusion to the method of Jesus’ death.

    Only the very obtuse, and those with them who deny the authority of the New Testament writers, resist the conclusion that Psalm 22 has, as its general thrust, the mission of the promised Messiah.

    The narrative begins: “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?” — a question agonisingly framed by the Savior from the cross (Mt. 27:46; Mk. 15:34). The treatment afforded Christ during his trial/crucifixion is graphically portrayed in Psalms 22:7-8.

    “All they that see me laugh me to scorn: They shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying, Commit thyself unto Jehovah; let him deliver him...” (cf. Lk. 23:35; Mt. 27:39, 43).

    Verse 18 depicts the soldiers gambling for the Lord’s clothes. “They part my garments among them, and upon my vesture do they cast lots” (cf. Mt. 27:35).

    It is in the midst of this context that the controversial statement is found: “They pierced my hands and my feet.”

    Additionally, compare this sentence with the references in the New Testament to the wounds of the Savior’s hands and feet (Lk. 24:40; Jn. 20:25). The connection is too obvious to miss if the student is honest.

    It is worthy of note that Tertullian (cir. A.D. 160-220), one of the post-apostolic “church fathers,” who had access to evidence older than we possess today, quoted from Psalm 22 in one of his five books, Against Marcion.

    In Book III, which is designed to argue the Messianic identity of Jesus based on Old Testament prophecy, Tertullian says that the Lord was “prophetically declaring his glory” when he said, “They pierced my hands and my feet” (Sect. XIX).

    We do not hesitate to say, therefore, that the preponderance of the evidence lies with our common English versions. Psalm 22:16 is an explicit prophecy of the crucifixion of Jesus Christ.

    As George Rawlinson, Professor of Ancient History at Oxford, noted: “There are no sufficient critical grounds for relinquishing” the view that “pierced” is the correct term of the text (153).
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2017
  14. Robban

    Robban ----------- Supporter

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    Psalms 22 is about and is referring to Israel,

    among else, they will go into exile,

    "I am a worm....."
    refers to Israel as one man.

    Don,t have time for more,

    Besides it gets boring.
     
  15. dougangel

    dougangel Regular Supporter

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    before we go on where does it say in psalm 22
    "among else, they will go into exile" ?
     
  16. Robban

    Robban ----------- Supporter

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    ".......why have You forsaken me?
    they are destined to go in exile and David recited this prayer
    for the future.

    The Jewish soul is one.

    like the spokes in a bicycle, at the outer rim they are seperated, but at the centre they as one.

    You use text to prove something,
    I have it for nourishment of the soul.
     
  17. dougangel

    dougangel Regular Supporter

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    Well your trying to draw me in to the suffering of the Ancient Israelite's. It's a very big subject.I am willing to discuss that with you in another thread.
    In the Old testament you can reduce some things read as physical Israel as in the New testament you can reduce things down to Spiritual Israel or Christ but they also have specific meanings as well.

    Psalm 22Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)

    16 (15) my mouth is as dry as a fragment of a pot,
    my tongue sticks to my palate;
    you lay me down in the dust of death.
    17 (16) Dogs are all around me,
    a pack of villains closes in on me
    like a lion [at] my hands and feet.
    18 (17) I can count every one of my bones,
    while they gaze at me and gloat.
    19 (18) They divide my garments among themselves;
    for my clothing they throw dice.

    the mouth being dry to the point of death is specific to christ in the gospels.

    "a pack of villains closes in on me"
    there was a thief on the left and right of Christ and the Romans

    "my hands and feet."
    the hands and feet mentioned particularly around the other quotes bring in the cross.
    The lions mention could be Rome

    18 (17) I can count every one of my bones,
    while they gaze at me and gloat.

    Mark 15:29 (Matthew 27:39) implies the language of Psalm 22:7 in the description of passersby at the crucifixion:

    "All who see me mock at me;
    they make mouths at me, they shake their heads."

    Matthew 27:43 also frames the taunts of the religious leaders with an allusion to Psalm 22:8:

    "Commit your cause to the LORD;
    let him deliver --
    let him rescue the one in whom he delights!"

    In all four Gospels (Mark 15:24; Matthew 27:35; Luke 23:34; John 19:24) the description of the soldiers' activity beneath the cross draws on Psalm 22:18:

    "they divide my clothes among themselves,
    and for my clothing they cast lots."

    In addition to these examples, John 19:28 probably has Psalm 22:15 in mind when reporting that Jesus says, "I am thirsty" in order "to fulfill scripture." The scripture fulfilled is most likely Psalm 22:15.
     
  18. Robban

    Robban ----------- Supporter

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    When a person is distressed he has no saliva in his mouth.

    16, my strength became dried out like a potsherd,
    and my tongue cleaves to my palate;
    and You set me down in dust of death.

    You are bent on declaring Psalms 22 to be all about Jesus.

    The Romans were not nice people, many were nailed to wooden poles,

    Have you heard of the Ten Martyrs?
    Rabbi Akiva had his flesh raked from his bones with sharp iron rakes.
     
  19. Robban

    Robban ----------- Supporter

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    Pierced,
    Was looking through some old papers and found this;

    The Rebbes words pierced the innermost point of the Chassids
    heart and he fell full length in a dead faint.

    The usage of the word here is understandable
     
  20. dougangel

    dougangel Regular Supporter

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    There's a reason for that. Which I have gone into detail of the specifics about it.
    It's mainstream christian thinking for anyone who has read the gospels.

    yes I agree with you that crucifixion was common capital punishment at that time for the Romans.
    Being the Son of God manifest in human form who was sinless and blameless.
    This is what makes this special. And outrageous that man did that to him.
     
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