Where Is Muhammad Ali Now?

[LoAmmi]

The prophet Isaiah declared: “But he was wounded [”pierced" — Delitzsch, II, 317-18] for our transgressions..." (53:5).

Oh, if we're just going to add words there, how about "beheaded" instead of "pierced". I'm going to go with beheaded and claim victory.

Moreover, Zechariah announced, on behalf of the Messiah:

“And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplication: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced” (12:10; cf. Jn. 19:37).

I always find it telling when a person decides to quote one verse out of a whole prophecy and use it as their GOTCHA!

What's going in in Zechariah 12?

I'll also point out that Jews have a different translation of this too:
And I will pour out upon the house of David and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplications. And they shall look to me because of those who have been thrust through [with swords], and they shall mourn over it as one mourns over an only son and shall be in bitterness, therefore, as one is embittered over a firstborn son.

The idea being that in the battle being described where enemies surround Israel, the people will mourn deeply for those who have been killed and mourn for them the same way people mourned "On that day there shall be great mourning in Jerusalem, like the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the Valley of Megiddon."

Now, what is that talking about? I'm not going to answer it for people.

 

[Robban]

There's a reason for that. Which I have gone into detail of the specifics about it.
It's mainstream christian thinking for anyone who has read the gospels.



yes I agree with you that crucifixion was common capital punishment at that time for the Romans.
Being the Son of God manifest in human form who was sinless and blameless.
This is what makes this special. And outrageous that man did that to him.

I have a question,
John 1:13,

I suppose it depends on which edition, but,
will translate from an edition I have,

v13, who have been born not of blood,
not of the will of the body,
not of the will of man,
but of God.

If this applies to you, are you not a son of God also?

This is neutral question, not arguing in any way.

 

[Robban]

,
Could well be that it is incorrect to say,
man has been endowed with free will,

could well be it is more correct to say,
free choice.

Which leads to the tree of knowledge
(tree of seperation)
But something for another day.

 

[dougangel]

Oh, if we're just going to add words there, how about "beheaded" instead of "pierced". I'm going to go with beheaded and claim victory.

Well it's obvious that you totally ignored my post #453.

The two words are strikingly similar in appearance in the original Hebrew text. The only difference between the word translated “like a lion,” and the one rendered “they pierced” is in the length of the upright vowel stroke on the latter word. The two might easily be confused.

Even the very liberal Interpreter’s Bible, which repudiates the passage as being prophetic of the crucifixion of Christ, says that “like a lion” does not make sense in the context (Sclater, 120).

In addition, we must note that in the Dead Sea Scrolls, which pre-date the common Hebrew texts by a thousand years, the term clearly is “pierced,” not “lion” (VanderKam / Flint, 124).

Ancient Versions
The ancient versions (translations of the Hebrew text into various languages) overwhelmingly support the reading “pierced.” This is the case in the Septuagint (Greek version), the Syriac, Vulgate, Arabic, and the Ethiopic.

One must remember that the Massorite Hebrew text is from the second century A.D., while the Septuagint dates from the third century B.C. There is a very powerful point here, to which Kidner calls attention:

“A strong argument in its [”pierced"] favor is that the LXX[Septuagint], compiled two centuries before the crucifixion, and therefore an unbiased witness, understood it so" (107).

because of those reasons I don't think its unreasonable for the english versions to say it is pierced

Although I have explanations for Zechariah 12:10 don't really think it's worth my time and effort

 

[dougangel]

I have a question,
John 1:13,

I suppose it depends on which edition, but,
will translate from an edition I have,

v13, who have been born not of blood,
not of the will of the body,
not of the will of man,
but of God.

If this applies to you, are you not a son of God also?

This is neutral question, not arguing in any way.

Son of God - Wikipedia
Historically, many rulers have assumed titles such as son of God, son of a god or son of heaven.[1]

The term "son of God" is sometimes used in the Old and New Testaments of the Christian Bible to refer to those with special relationships with God. In the Old Testament, angels, just and pious men, the descendants of Seth, and the kings of Israel are all called "sons of God."[2] In the New Testament, Adam,[3] and, most notably, Jesus Christ[2] are called "son of God," while followers of Jesus are called, "sons of God."[4]

In the New Testament, "Son of God" is applied to Jesus on many occasions.[2] Jesus is declared to be the Son of God on two separate occasions by a voice speaking from Heaven. Jesus is also explicitly and implicitly described as the Son of God by himself and by various individuals who appear in the New Testament.[2][5][6][7] As applied to Jesus, the term is a reference to his role as the Messiah, the King chosen by God.[8]The contexts and ways in which Jesus' title, Son of God, means something more than or other than Messiah remain the subject of ongoing scholarly study and discussion.

Put simply. The term son of God has 2 uses.
A special term for the messiah Jesus.
Righteous man

 

[LoAmmi]

don't really think it's worth my time and effort

yeah, this kinds of sums up my POV at this time too.

 

[Aryeh Jay]

.

 

[dougangel]

Here they are, sorry about the delay...

Well we had moved on a bit and I acquired a Jewish translation.

Psalm 22:16 is one verse where the standard Jewish translations differ from the translations most Christians use. Here’s why. In Hebrew, the phrase they have pierced” is kaaru while “like a lion” is kaari. The words are identical except that “pierced” ends with the Hebrew letter vav and “lion” with yod. Vav and yod are similar in form, and a scribe might easily have changed the text by inscribing a yod and failing to attach a vertical descending line so that it would become a vav. The evidence suggests that this may be what happened, since the Greek version of the Scriptures, known as the Septuagint, rendered in Egypt before the time of Jesus, preserves the reading of “pierced.”

Psalm 22Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)

16 (15) my mouth is as dry as a fragment of a pot,
my tongue sticks to my palate;
you lay me down in the dust of death.
17 (16) Dogs are all around me,
a pack of villains closes in on me
like a lion [at] my hands and feet.
18 (17) I can count every one of my bones,
while they gaze at me and gloat.
19 (18) They divide my garments among themselves;
for my clothing they throw dice.

With all the verses around it and the fact that hands and feet are mentioned. It still does in the Jewish translation still evoke images of what was reported happened to Christ.
The dead sea scrolls and earlier copies before christ show pierced rather than the newer Jewish translations.
I keep saying this and nobody really answers this.

 

[Robban]

Well we had moved on a bit and I acquired a Jewish translation.

Psalm 22:16 is one verse where the standard Jewish translations differ from the translations most Christians use. Here’s why. In Hebrew, the phrase they have pierced” is kaaru while “like a lion” is kaari. The words are identical except that “pierced” ends with the Hebrew letter vav and “lion” with yod. Vav and yod are similar in form, and a scribe might easily have changed the text by inscribing a yod and failing to attach a vertical descending line so that it would become a vav. The evidence suggests that this may be what happened, since the Greek version of the Scriptures, known as the Septuagint, rendered in Egypt before the time of Jesus, preserves the reading of “pierced.”

Psalm 22Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)

16 (15) my mouth is as dry as a fragment of a pot,
my tongue sticks to my palate;
you lay me down in the dust of death.
17 (16) Dogs are all around me,
a pack of villains closes in on me
like a lion [at] my hands and feet.
18 (17) I can count every one of my bones,
while they gaze at me and gloat.
19 (18) They divide my garments among themselves;
for my clothing they throw dice.

With all the verses around it and the fact that hands and feet are mentioned. It still does in the Jewish translation still evoke images of what was reported happened to Christ.
The dead sea scrolls and earlier copies before christ show pierced rather than the newer Jewish translations.
I keep saying this and nobody really answers this.

Only because the answers you have recieved do line up with
yours.

 

[dougangel]

Psalms 22 is about and is referring to Israel,

among else, they will go into exile,

"I am a worm....."
refers to Israel as one man.

Don,t have time for more,

Besides it gets boring.

So someone has said in this thread,

It's about David's life.
It's about the Jews experience in WW2.
It's about Israels exiles.

And different or multi interpretations can be acceptable in some cases.
And in the OT we can see the historical physical fulfilment of Israel. But Christ alluded to these scriptures as well. In fact he went out of his way to do that.

 

[Robban]

So someone has said in this thread,

It's about David's life.
It's about the Jews experience in WW2.
It's about Israels exiles.

And different or multi interpretations can be acceptable in some cases.
And in the OT we can see the historical physical fulfilment of Israel. But Christ alluded to these scriptures as well. In fact he went out of his way to do that.

Who is Christ?

Thought Christ come from Christos/Christus Greek for
annointed,

so there have been many Christs in that sense.

So is Psalms 22 about the annointed ones,
Israel, David or someone else or all who have been annointed?

I think there is a risk that many have turned Jesus into an idol.

 

[dougangel]

Who is Christ?

Thought Christ come from Christos/Christus Greek for
annointed,

so there have been many Christs in that sense.

So is Psalms 22 about the annointed ones,
Israel, David or someone else or all who have been annointed?

I think there is a risk that many have turned Jesus into an idol.

John 4
21 Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe Me, the hour is coming when you will neither on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, worship the Father. 22 You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews. 23 But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. 24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”

25 The woman said to Him, “I know that Messiah is coming” (who is called Christ). “When He comes, He will tell us all things.”

26 Jesus said to her, “I who speak to you am He.”



Mark 14:61-63 (NKJV)

61 But He kept silent and answered nothing.

Again the high priest asked Him, saying to Him, “Are You the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?”

62 Jesus said, “I am. And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven.”

63 Then the high priest tore his clothes and said, “What further need do we have of witnesses?

Jesus is mentioning Moses, Daniel prophecies, and deity. Being at the right hand of power. Jesus has signed his own death warrant

Abraham’s Seed and Satan’s
37 “I know that you are Abraham’s descendants, but you seek to kill Me, because My word has no place in you. 38 I speak what I have seen with My Father, and you do what you have seen with your father.”

39 They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.”

Jesus said to them, “If you were Abraham’s children, you would do the works of Abraham. 40 But now you seek to kill Me, a Man who has told you the truth which I heard from God. Abraham did not do this. 41 You do the deeds of your father.”

Then they said to Him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father—God.”

42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. 43 Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it. 45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me. 46 Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I tell the truth, why do you not believe Me? 47 He who is of God hears God’s words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God.

 

[Robban]

John 4
21 Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe Me, the hour is coming when you will neither on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, worship the Father. 22 You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews. 23 But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. 24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”

25 The woman said to Him, “I know that Messiah is coming” (who is called Christ). “When He comes, He will tell us all things.”

26 Jesus said to her, “I who speak to you am He.”



Mark 14:61-63 (NKJV)

61 But He kept silent and answered nothing.

Again the high priest asked Him, saying to Him, “Are You the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?”

62 Jesus said, “I am. And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven.”

63 Then the high priest tore his clothes and said, “What further need do we have of witnesses?

Jesus is mentioning Moses, Daniel prophecies, and deity. Being at the right hand of power. Jesus has signed his own death warrant

Abraham’s Seed and Satan’s
37 “I know that you are Abraham’s descendants, but you seek to kill Me, because My word has no place in you. 38 I speak what I have seen with My Father, and you do what you have seen with your father.”

39 They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.”

Jesus said to them, “If you were Abraham’s children, you would do the works of Abraham. 40 But now you seek to kill Me, a Man who has told you the truth which I heard from God. Abraham did not do this. 41 You do the deeds of your father.”

Then they said to Him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father—God.”

42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. 43 Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it. 45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me. 46 Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I tell the truth, why do you not believe Me? 47 He who is of God hears God’s words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God.

Yep,
Same old,same old.

 

[FredVB]

In the New Testament, "Son of God" is applied to Jesus on many occasions. Jesus is declared to be the Son of God on two separate occasions by a voice speaking from Heaven. Jesus is also explicitly and implicitly described as the Son of God by himself and by various individuals who appear in the New Testament. As applied to Jesus, the term is a reference to his role as the Messiah, the King chosen by God. The contexts and ways in which Jesus' title, Son of God, means something more than or other than Messiah remain the subject of ongoing scholarly study and discussion.
Put simply. The term son of God has 2 uses.
A special term for the messiah Jesus.
Righteous man

Jesus is distinct as the only begotten Son of God. He is introduced with this term, as the Son of God, first in Luke 1:35. The term "Son of God" for Jesus refers to the incarnation he is of God, being Logos, the Word.

The prophecy of Zechariah 12:10 that is applied to Jesus who was pierced, in the new testament of the Bible, shows Jesus is the incarnation of Yahweh, for it is Yahweh who is speaking on those who "will look on me whom they have pierced", who comes to the defense of Jerusalem in that battle, as Jesus was to return to the Mount of Olives (Acts of the Apostles 1:11-12, Revelation 19:11-15) in that battle, with what is shown in Zechariah 14:4.