Where does this saying come from?

[MariaRegina]

Theologically speaking, one cannot be presumptuous and dare to say that his salvation is secured. We must work out our salvation with fear and trembling (paraphrasing St. Paul).

 

[Cradle]

Theologically speaking, one cannot be presumptuous and dare to say that his salvation is secured. We must work out our salvation with fear and trembling (paraphrasing St. Paul).

Agreed! "Secured", as in, we are assured we can look for the mercy of God if we work for our salvation in fear and trembling, according to the teachings of the Church and with the Grace of Her Holy Sacraments. In that context, the "fear and trembling equivalent" struggle of e.g. a Buddhist monk might be in vain - yet it might not, we don't know, God knows. That is the meaning of "secure" in this phrase!

My source is word of mouth .

 

[MariaRegina]

Just in case other Baptized and Christmated Orthodox want to join Bishop Tikhon's group normalorthodox, which is highly moderated and a great site for spiritual growth, here it is again:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/normalorthodox/

The discussion we are having concerning the OP repeated below was inspired by his site.

[The origin of the following statement:]

"We know where the Church is in Her fullness,
but we do not know where She isn't.

ALTERNATE FORMS:

"We know where the Holy Spirit is,
But we do not know where He isn't."

"We know where the Spirit of God is,
But we don't know where He isn't."

 

[countrymousenc]

When I have seen, "We know where the Church is but we don't know where it isn't," it has not been intended as an excuse to reject the truth. It was used, and I have repeated it, in the sense that we do not limit God in deciding whom He may or may not save. The usual question is, "What about those who have not heard the gospel or who don't have access to Orthodoxy?" I wonder whether God condemned millions of people who were never officially Orthodox but fervently believed in Christ, when Orthodox churches were, for the most part, closed societies here in North America. Does the Holy Spirit, who is everywhere and fills all things, have nothing to do with those who believe unless they are officially Orthodox?

 

[MariaRegina]

When I have seen, "We know where the Church is but we don't know where it isn't," it has not been intended as an excuse to reject the truth. It was used, and I have repeated it, in the sense that we do not limit God in deciding whom He may or may not save. The usual question is, "What about those who have not heard the gospel or who don't have access to Orthodoxy?" I wonder whether God condemned millions of people who were never officially Orthodox but fervently believed in Christ, when Orthodox churches were, for the most part, closed societies here in North America. Does the Holy Spirit, who is everywhere and fills all things, have nothing to do with those who believe unless they are officially Orthodox?

Dear Dianne:

I agree with you that God's Spirit blows where He wills. It's true that we shouldn't judge our brothers but pray for them, that we all may be saved.

However the problem with the statement "We know where the Church is but we don't know where it isn't, is that it is theologically imprecise and ambiguous. It has two meanings as one of our previous posters pointed out. This other meaning has lead to the serious problems of universal salvation and religious indifference.

It's sad when several priests I know will not encourage a person to convert to Orthodoxy, but instead, encourage them to remain Jewish, Buddhist or whatever.

Pray for these priests.

Prayerfully in Christ,
Elizabeth

 

[countrymousenc]

Some commentary from Fr. Thomas Hopko about other Christians:

http://www.oca.org/pages/orth_chri/Q-and-A_OLD/Meeting-the-Orthodox.html#1

See Question 11.



It is a valid question to ask... whether the Church on earth is limited to the visible Church, which must of course be the Orthodox Church and no other. Don't know where I first heard the saying in question, but I never took it to mean anything but that it is ultimately up to God. Never as an easy out.

 

[MariaRegina]

Dianne - I cut and pasted Father Hopko's remark which is very good.

http://www.oca.org/pages/orth_chri/Q-and-A_OLD/Meeting-the-Orthodox.html#1

In the first place it must be made clear that it is not enough for anyone merely to believe these things, or merely to be a formal member of the Church. In order to be saved one must live by the truth and love of God.

It is the common teaching of the Orthodox Christian tradition that the Church has no monopoly on grace and truth and love. The Church teaches on the contrary that God is the Sovereign Lord who saves those whom He wills.

The Church believes as well that salvation depends upon the actual life of the person, and God alone is capable of judging since He alone knows the secrets of each mind and heart. Only God is capable of judging how well a man lives according to the measure of grace, faith, understanding, and strength given to him.

The Orthodox would insist, nevertheless, that an honest seeker of truth and love will see these things perfectly realized and expressed in Jesus Christ and will recognize God, the end of their seeking, in Him.

We all know, however, that our image of Christ is deformed both by the lives and the doctrines of those who claim him, and thus His truth and love and His very person remain obscure and hidden to those who might follow Him if they could see Him clearly.

But once again, let it be clear that every man is judged by God alone according to the actual truth and love in his life. This goes for Orthodox and non-Orthodox alike. And although the Orthodox confess that the fulness of truth and love is found in the life of the church, nominal church membership or formal assent to some doctrines does not at all guarantee salvation.

We cannot be minimalists or Christ may accuse us of being lukewarm. We cannot just avoid the more serious sins or we are not truly repentant. If we are Chrismated into the Church, then more will be expected from us. Those with more talents will be expected to blossom even more in grace and wisdom.

Hope this helps.

Yours in Christ,
Elizabeth

 

[Rilian]

I posted this in a different thread, but I'll post it again because I think it's one of the best treatments of this subject I've run across. The Limits of the Church.

 

[MariaRegina]

I posted this in a different thread, but I'll post it again because I think it's one of the best treatments of this subject I've run across. The Limits of the Church.

I read it, but did you find that statement which we have been discussing?

 

[MariaRegina]

Bishop Tikhon has just responded.

[paraphrasing him] We should use the scriptures that reads "The Holy Spirit blows where He wills" rather than an obscure ambiguous statement.

 

[Oblio]

Bishop Tikhon has just responded.

[paraphrasing him] We should use the scriptures that reads "The Holy Spirit blows where He wills" rather than an obscure ambiguous statement.

IMO, and with all due respect to his Grace, as long as the statement is used in the proper context thereby mitigating the ambiguity, obscure or not, it can be used to portray theological truths. I do think marrying Scripture to the statement would reinforce it nicely.

 

[Rilian]

I read it, but did you find that statement which we have been discussing?

No, I just posted it because I thought it was related.

 

[MariaRegina]

Dear Chris,

I think you would get along famously with His Grace!

Yet, knowing him, I cannot say anything for certain.

He's totally unpredictable, as are the saints. He has his opinions, though. Yet he seems to be able to read a person's soul. He knows when to humble a person and when to encourage them. He's a good shepherd.

 

[MariaRegina]

No, I just posted it because I thought it was related.

It was a good read and relevant to the discussion at hand. Thanks so much.

 

[MariaRegina]

The following are some comments from Bishop Tikhon's Yahoo Group (for those of you who are unable to access that site). These statements are made by professionals who include librarians, deacons, priests, and bishops.

Regarding: "We know where the Church is in Her fullness,
but we do not know where She isn't."

This statement "certainly has an appearance of conflict
with the ecclesiology of St. Cyprian of Carthage."

"A quick-and-dirty "Google" search yielded only two equally emphatic
assertions. One, that Metropolitan Philaret of Moscow is the
source; the other that Phillips Brooks (Episcopalian) is the
source."

"We know where the Holy Spirit is, but we
cannot say where He is not." seems to also be used.

"Bp Kallistos attributes it to Khomiakov."

"I have to agree that I've never heard that expression applied to the
Church, but only to Grace or to the Holy Spirit or to who is saved, etc..
Without reflecting too deeply, I feel that such a saying applied to the
Church might indicate that there is a visible and an invisible church--as
far as I know that is a characteristically Protestant problem. Once an
invisible church is granted, then one may say that visibility is not as
important as invisibility--hierarchy and sacraments as Faith divorced from
such. This would mean that there are two Churches, as well."

"I just did a search of the CD-ROM "The Early Church Fathers " by
Logos Library systems. There was no Early Church Father that wrote
the phrase "We know were the Holy Spirit is but can not say where he
is not." I also tried variations with Church, Grace and etc. and no
variations of the saying was found."

"Excellent! That means we'll just have to be happy with "bloweth where He
listeth." "

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/normalorthodox/

This website will only admit chrismated and baptized members of the Holy Orthodox Church who are in good standing.

 

[Rilian]

It was a good read. Someone suggested that Metropolitan Philaret may have penned that statement, others suggested a Protestant minister.

It seems unfathomable to me that anyone in Orthodoxy would say one is just as well off not being Orthodox as being in the church. Regardless of the provenance of the saying in question. To do so, as you highlight above, would be taking a page out of the book of the liberal Protestant denominations (Episcopalians, Presbyterians, Methodists, etc.) that no longer have confidence that truth can be found in its fullness in their own ecclesial bodies. The view is everyone has a piece of the truth, and everyone is more or less equal so it doesn't matter which church you're in. It sounds nice because you're affirming everybody, but the fact is it's ultimately destructive, as are many things that feel good as we're doing them.

The article is interesting to me because as Father Florovsky points out nobody has ever reputed the view of Cyprian, i.e. that the catholicity of the church ends at its canonical borders. Yet he shows that Augustine added a more nuanced view, especially on the nature of the sacraments. He also points out that economy and charity have also usually softened the Cyprianic view in the practical life of the church, for instance in how it receives converts.

 

[MariaRegina]

Dear Rilian:

There are some so-called non-canonical Orthodox groups (HOCNA) that only admit converts by Baptism (no exceptions are allowed) as they consider non-Orthodox Baptisms to be invalid. They base their theology on St. Cyprian and disallow modern theology. I think that is being a little judgmental. What about those early Christians who had no opportunity to be baptized, but were baptized by their martyrdom? What about those early Christians whom the Holy Spirit descended upon before their baptism? The Apostles baptized them immediately because the Holy Spirit was already upon them. So, the Spirit does blow where he wills.

 

[Rilian]

There are some so-called non-canonical Orthodox groups (HOCNA) that only admit converts by Baptism (no exceptions are allowed) as they consider non-Orthodox Baptisms to be invalid.

I've run across them and some others which I think are similar. It seems to me like they are so strenuously Orthodox that they somehow completely lose the whole spirit of Orthodoxy. To me it's like fasting, if you're completely focused on simply maintaining the letter of the law of the fast, you've missed the point.

The one thing I always think of is the story of people given their own rooms in heaven so they can continue on thinking nobody else is there.

 

[MariaRegina]

I've run across them and some others which I think are similar. It seems to me like they are so strenuously Orthodox that they somehow completely lose the whole spirit of Orthodoxy. To me it's like fasting, if you're completely focused on simply maintaining the letter of the law of the fast, you've missed the point.

The one thing I always think of is the story of people given their own rooms in heaven so they can continue on thinking nobody else is there.

Yeah, That's not called heaven. But don't tell them.

 

[MariaRegina]

Someone mentioned Khomiakov - Does anyone know anything about this man?

Here is what I found using a google search:

http://www.hts.edu/pages/colloquim2003.html

“Aleksei Khomiakov (1804-1860): Poet, Philosopher, Theologian”


An accomplished poet and all-around Renaissance man, Aleksei Khomiakov was also Russia's first secular theologian. The influence of his classic essay “The Church Is One” and its central concept of sobornost’ continues to be felt in contemporary Orthodox, and even Catholic, ecclesiology. Khomiakov’s polemical writings in French and correspondence with Anglican churchman William Palmer remain important documents of Orthodox relations with the Western churches. This scholarly conference will be devoted to an examination and evaluation of Khomiakov’s legacy in all his major fields of endeavor.

p.s. I would have posted this much earlier but the tom cat distracted me.