Where does this saying come from?

[MariaRegina]

The statement below has been bantered about at CF and other online sites as proof that one can never join a Christian Church, stay unrooted, and expect to be saved:

"We know where the Church is in Her fullness,
but we do not know where She isn't.

ALTERNATE FORMS:

"We know where the Holy Spirit is,
But we do not know where He isn't."

"We know where the Spirit of God is,
But we don't know where He isn't."

***

In short this expression can lead to lukewarmness, carelessness, ignorance, religious indifference and/or false ecumenism.

It seems that this expression has been attributed to every saint imagineable to give it credibility. So where does this potentially dangerous statement come from?

Inquiring minds would really like to know!

p.s. Bishop Tikhon's Yahoo group has been searching for 2 days without finding a definite source. A deacon and a librarian even did a search of the Church Fathers and both came up empty.

 

[Oblio]

The statement below has been bantered about at CF and othe online sites as proof that one can never join a Christian Church, stay unrooted, and expect to be saved:

I would disagree with this, or at least that use of the phrase. Like the term Theotokos (which speaks ultimately of the nature of Christ rather than Mary), it is used to affirm something about God and the limitless nature of His grace and power and not of false ecumenism. IMO anyway.

 

[MariaRegina]

I would disagree with this, or at least that use of the phrase. Like the term Theotokos (which speaks ultimately of the nature of Christ rather than Mary), it is used to affirm something about God and the limitless nature of His grace and power and not of false ecumenism. IMO anyway.

"We know where the Spirit is in His fullness,
but we do not know where He isn't.

This statement in the OP has been applied liberally to imply that invincible ignorance is okay, when it is not.

It's true that we are not to judge others, which this statement also implies. But to leave someone in ignorance is failing to educate the ignorant. Christ did tell us to preach to all men the Good News of salvation. We preach by our very lives, by our written words and by our speech.

This statement is therefore, not precise theologically. It implies that outside of the Church one can be saved, so why find the Church. Do you see what I mean?

Prayerfully in Christ,
Elizabeth

 

[Oblio]

This statement in the OP has been applied liberally to imply that invincible ignorance is okay, when it is not.

Isn't Invincible Ignorace a Catholic doctrine, and best left to them to discuss ? I've never heard an EOC apply the OP phrase in a I'm OK, your OK manner.

 

[Oblio]

It implies that outside of the Church one can be saved, so why find the Church.

You can jump ship and swim to shore and not drown is also a true statement while the lifeboats are being boarded.

 

[Oblio]

p.s. Bishop Tikhon's Yahoo group has been searching for 2 days without finding a definite source. A deacon and a librarian even did a search of the Church Fathers and both came up empty.

Sounds like a good exersize for them.

 

[MariaRegina]

Isn't Invincible Ignorace a Catholic doctrine, and best left to them to discuss ? I've never heard an EOC apply the OP phrase in a I'm OK, your OK manner.

Unfortunately, within the Greek and Antiochian Orthodox Churches, I've heard this statement used and applied by Orthodox Priests who have told me that they are not encouraging Buddhists to convert to Orthodoxy, but to be better Buddhists. In the name of political correctness, they are encouraging Jews to become better Jews and discouraging them from converting, even though they want to. We have some Orthodox Priests who are reading the CCC and teaching it.

This is what I mean by false ecumenism and incorrect political correctness.

 

[Oblio]

Unfortunately, within the Greek and Antiochian Orthodox Churches, I've heard this statement used and applied by Orthodox Priests who have told me that they are not encouraging Buddhists to convert to Orthodoxy, but to be better Buddhists.

You heard this, or was it posted on the Indiana or other such lists/blogs ?

We have some Orthodox Priests who are reading the CCC and teaching it.

This should not IMO be done.

 

[MariaRegina]

Unfortunately, within the Greek and Antiochian Orthodox Churches, I've heard this statement used and applied by Orthodox Priests who have told me that they are not encouraging Buddhists to convert to Orthodoxy, but to be better Buddhists. In the name of political correctness, they are encouraging Jews to become better Jews and discouraging them from converting, even though they want to. We have some Orthodox Priests who are reading the CCC and teaching it.

Dear Chris -

Unfortunately I know three priests who say and do this, and it was the result of their meditation on that statement in the OP. It leads to religious indifference and equality of faith.

This is precisely what I mean by false ecumenism and incorrect political correctness.

We've had a couple of priests defrocked recently because of this. PM me for more information as it's not feasible for this board.

 

[Oblio]

We've had a couple of priests defrocked recently because of this. PM me for more information as it's not feasible for this board.

That's enough info, and evidence that the system is at least reacting to the problem in the proper way. There will always be those that use part of the truth to attempt to mislead the sheep. Satan gives a prime example in the temptations of our Lord.

 

[Sergius_Lucius]

I think the statement "we don't know, where the Church is not" is certainly wrong, but I'm not so sure that we can't say this about the grace of God. I'd say that those christians who are not inside the Church are still connected with Her through the Scriptures, Christian faith, and sacraments, which, eventually, belong to the Orthodox Church only.

 

[The Prokeimenon!]

We know where The Church is. We do not know where The Church is not.

I understood this phrase to mean that Orthodoxy is THE Church of Christ, the fulness of him that filleth all in all. But we can't limit the work of God and say that His Grace only operates on Orthodox Christians. Others may be experiencing the Grace of God who are outside His Church, but the point of the statement is we don't know.

Somebody who is investigating Orthodoxy might ask: "When I was Baptised as a (insert non-Orthodox denomination here) Christian, did I recieve any Grace?" The answer: We don't know. We only know that the fulness of Baptism is realized in an Orthodox Baptism.

My Priest shared this quote with my Catechumen class when someone asked that very question about Baptism.

As for the origin of the quote, our Priest quoted extensively from Fr Anthony Coniaris in our classes. I don't know if this quote was one of them, but it might be a good starting point for finding the origin...

So very grateful to be Home,
Moses

 

[MariaRegina]

I understood this phrase to mean that Orthodoxy is THE Church of Christ, the fulness of him that filleth all in all. But we can't limit the work of God and say that His Grace only operates on Orthodox Christians. Others may be experiencing the Grace of God who are outside His Church, but the point of the statement is we don't know.

Somebody who is investigating Orthodoxy might ask: "When I was Baptised as a (insert non-Orthodox denomination here) Christian, did I recieve any Grace?" The answer: We don't know. We only know that the fulness of Baptism is realized in an Orthodox Baptism.

My Priest shared this quote with my Catechumen class when someone asked that very question about Baptism.

As for the origin of the quote, our Priest quoted extensively from Fr Anthony Coniaris in our classes. I don't know if this quote was one of them, but it might be a good starting point for finding the origin...

So very grateful to be Home,
Moses

Dear Moses,

Could you kindly ask your priest if he has any idea from whence this saying came?

I am familar with Father Coniaris and he does quote a lot of people in his Introduction to the Orthodox Church.

I hope we can keep the subject to this statement only and that it won't get sidetracted by outsiders.

Yours in Christ our God,
Elizabeth

p.s. Was it inspired of Satan or a Saint?

 

[The Prokeimenon!]

Could you kindly ask your priest if he has any idea from whence this saying came?

I'll ask tomorrow

Moses

 

[The Prokeimenon!]

p.s. Was it inspired of Satan or a Saint?

Golly, I guess I never really thought there could be a problem with it. Am I missing the point?

Moses

 

[MariaRegina]

Golly, I guess I never really thought there could be a problem with it. Am I missing the point?

Moses

It appears to be theologically imprecise, hence it's meaning can be taken in two different ways. It could be classified as an ambiguous statement. If you read the first page of this thread, you will understand the implications.

 

[The Prokeimenon!]

It implies that outside of the Church one can be saved, so why find the Church.

Ah! I think I understand.

We use this phrase to say "don't judge outsiders, or waste time trying to see if other churches are "valid", just keep working out your own salvation."

But some might use the phrase to say "It doesn't matter what church I belong to, cause who's got the right to say I'm not in "The Church""

This is a problem. Now I feel a little uneasy because I've always thought this was a great little saying. I'm anxious to find out the origin.

Moses

 

[MariaRegina]

Ah! I think I understand.

We use this phrase to say "don't judge outsiders, or waste time trying to see if other churches are "valid", just keep working out your own salvation."

But some might use the phrase to say "It doesn't matter what church I belong to, cause who's got the right to say I'm not in "The Church""

This is a problem. Now I feel a little uneasy because I've always thought this was a great little saying. I'm anxious to find out the origin.

Moses

Glad you got the

Are you a member of normalorthodox yet? Bishop Tikhon's highly moderated group is really great for Chrismated Orthodox who want to deepen their faith and stay true to the faith. I picked up this question from his site as priests, deacons and laity want to know the origin of the statement.

 

[Cradle]

Why don't we simply use the alternative phrase :

The Orthodox Church is the only secure way to salvation.

Clearly making our point, that a) we know the Grace of God is in the Church, and b) we don't know what happens outside, and we don't dare to play patrons of the Holy Spirit and tell Him where else He "is allowed" to act.

Do you think that phrase leaves any room for misinterpretations? Clearly it's not mine .

 

[MariaRegina]

Why don't we simply use the alternative phrase :

The Orthodox Church is the only secure way to salvation.

Clearly making our point, that a) we know the Grace of God is in the Church, and b) we don't know what happens outside, and we don't dare to play patrons of the Holy Spirit and tell Him where else He "is allowed" to act.

Do you think that phrase leaves any room for misinterpretations? Clearly it's not mine .

Cradle -

I've heard that statement before - where did you find it? Do you know the source?