Where does morality come from?

[createdtoworship]

I didn’t say only humans are capable of hatred, I said hatred to the level of arch rivals. But perhaps I should have phrased it differently because there is no way of drawing the line when hatred gets to that level, and even if there was, how do you judge it in an animal? Obviously this can’t be done.

I think it's pretty straight forward seeing if an animal is an enemy of another animal, for example predators and prey.

This is just my personal opinion; I don’t think animals can be as creative with their hatred as humans can because when you look at the results of human hatred vs animal hatred, humans have a history of being much more vicious. So no, I don’t have any data to back that up, it was just my personal opinion and I should have been a little more clear about that.

now this is not what you said. This is moving the goalposts. You originally said that only humans were capable of this hatred. Now you are saying that both animals and humans can have hatred but the human version is more "vicious." But my point is that they can have the same hatred, but the larger brain allows humans to use more creative punishments, and some of them can be more sinister. However creative punishments does not mean that the hatred for one is greater, simply because he is more intelligent. You still need to provide evidence for this. When you do this, we can move on.

Feel free to respond to the rest of the post.

I am still seeing some errors in what was already said, once we work this out, we can move on.

 

[Ken-1122]

I think it's pretty straight forward seeing if an animal is an enemy of another animal, for example predators and prey.

Are humans and bears enemies? Are Humans and sharks enemies? What about cows or pigs? We kill them and eat their flesh. How are you defining enemy here? I don’t consider predator and prey as enemies. A predator animal will attack a human as quickly as he would any other prey. If you are going to compare human/human rivalry as enemy, the same has to be with animals otherwise your comparison is false.

now this is not what you said. This is moving the goalposts. You originally said that only humans were capable of this hatred.

I said only humans are capable of this TYPE of hatred. The type of hatred we call arch rivalry; which is what you said you were referring to.

Now you are saying that both animals and humans can have hatred but the human version is more "vicious."

How is this different than what I originally said?

But my point is that they can have the same hatred, but the larger brain allows humans to use more creative punishments, and some of them can be more sinister. However creative punishments does not mean that the hatred for one is greater, simply because he is more intelligent. You still need to provide evidence for this. When you do this, we can move on.

I never claimed anything was backed up by scientific data, I have been very clear that I am voicing my opinion. Now if you disagree with my opinion, explain why and we can continue this discussion.

 

[gaara4158]

I did not say their is no evidence of altruism, I said there is no evidence of self sacrificial love among animals (who are not in immediate family).

What would constitute self sacrificial love in animals? Altruism is self sacrifice. Love is a subjective emotion that can’t be tested for, so I don’t know what evidence you would be looking for. By that standard we have no evidence of self-sacrificial love in humans, either. The fact that humpback whales go out of their way to fend off orcas - at great risk to themselves - on behalf of non-family members and even other mammal species seems to go directly against the claim you’re making.

And again, your rejection of that evidence due to its source being anecdotes from a magazine is hypocritical since you are perfectly happy to use your own anecdotes to support your position. You do not have a scholarly article stating that animals do not exhibit “self sacrificial love,” so we don’t need to provide scholarly articles in contradiction to that claim either.

It’s like if I just made a thread that said “God does not exist.” And then when people tried to ask me how I could support that conclusion I said “Because you do not have any scholarly articles demonstrating that he does.”

 

[createdtoworship]

Are humans and bears enemies? Are Humans and sharks enemies? What about cows or pigs? We kill them and eat their flesh. How are you defining enemy here? I don’t consider predator and prey as enemies. A predator animal will attack a human as quickly as he would any other prey. If you are going to compare human/human rivalry as enemy, the same has to be with animals otherwise your comparison is false.

I said only humans are capable of this TYPE of hatred. The type of hatred we call arch rivalry; which is what you said you were referring to.

How is this different than what I originally said?

I never claimed anything was backed up by scientific data, I have been very clear that I am voicing my opinion. Now if you disagree with my opinion, explain why and we can continue this discussion.

So if you have no evidence of your theory, then we are done here.

My premises have been fully backed up with data.

 

[createdtoworship]

What would constitute self sacrificial love in animals? Altruism is self sacrifice. Love is a subjective emotion that can’t be tested for, so I don’t know what evidence you would be looking for. By that standard we have no evidence of self-sacrificial love in humans, either. The fact that humpback whales go out of their way to fend off orcas - at great risk to themselves - on behalf of non-family members and even other mammal species seems to go directly against the claim you’re making.

And again, your rejection of that evidence due to its source being anecdotes from a magazine is hypocritical since you are perfectly happy to use your own anecdotes to support your position. You do not have a scholarly article stating that animals do not exhibit “self sacrificial love,” so we don’t need to provide scholarly articles in contradiction to that claim either.

It’s like if I just made a thread that said “God does not exist.” And then when people tried to ask me how I could support that conclusion I said “Because you do not have any scholarly articles demonstrating that he does.”

altruism, is animals being nice to animals. yes that happens in any successful herd. It's part of living together. But being nice to other animals that are your enemies. That is unique among christian thought. And thus this proves that true love is of God, not mother nature.

 

[gaara4158]

altruism, is animals being nice to animals. yes that happens in any successful herd. It's part of living together. But being nice to other animals that are your enemies. That is unique among christian thought. And thus this proves that true love is of God, not mother nature.

Would be cool if you addressed my points.

 

[Ken-1122]

So if you have no evidence of your theory, then we are done here.

My premises have been fully backed up with data.

You’ve backed nothing up.
First you claim only humans are capable of “Sacrificial love”
Now you make this claim without defining sacrificial love, and you provide no evidence that animals are'nt capable of this, you act as if because you don’t see this that it doesn’t exist.

Then you claim brain size has something to do with intelligence without providing any evidence to back this up; then when it is obvious your claim has no merit, you try to claim that I claim brain size has to do with intelligence when it was only you who made this claim; (post #171) priceless!!!

Then you tried to claim that Dolphins are similar to intelligence as humans! (post 168) and provided a link that said dolphins have societies similar to humans, and you misquote the article claiming that because they have societies similar to humans, that they are similar to intelligence. How you made that leap I have no idea.

You specified a type of hatred (arch rival) was the type of hatred you were referring to, you claimed predator/prey are have this type of hatred, and you provided no evidence to back this claim up. When I pointed out to you that a predator animal will attack a human as quickly as any other prey, and humans don’t consider them arch rivals, you refused to address it.

Then you claim that Christians are more forgiving than non Christians, when I challenge you on it, you provide an article that address spirituality; the article didn’t even mention Christianity! When I bring this to your attention, you refuse to address it.

Then you provide an article (post 188)that says ape brains are similar to size as a humans and you try to claim that this means apes are just as intelligent as humans! Nowhere in the article did it compare the intelligence of apes to humans, this is just a leap you’ve decided to take! Of course when I point this out to you, again; you refuse to address it

Now you have the audacity to say that because I don’t have scientific data to back up every opinion I express that we are done??? Thus far you have not provided any scientific data that backs up anything you’ve said; the links you did provide, you grossly misinterpreted it to mean something it obviously did not!

If you want to be taken seriously, here is a list of the following things you need to provide

*define “sacrificial love” and provide scientific evidence humans do this and animals do not.
*provide scientific evidence that brain size has something to do with intelligence
*Provide scientific evidence that Dolphins are similar to intelligence to humans,
*provide scientific evidence that animals have arch rivals like humans
*Provide scientific evidence that Christians are more forgiving than non christians.
*Provide scientific evidence that apes are similar to intelligence to humans

I’m sure there were more empty claims you’ve made but these are a half dozen that come to mind for now.

 

[createdtoworship]

You’ve backed nothing up.
First you claim only humans are capable of “Sacrificial love”
Now you make this claim without defining sacrificial love, and you provide no evidence that animals are'nt capable of this, you act as if because you don’t see this that it doesn’t exist.

Then you claim brain size has something to do with intelligence without providing any evidence to back this up; then when it is obvious your claim has no merit, you try to claim that I claim brain size has to do with intelligence when it was only you who made this claim; (post #171) priceless!!!

Then you tried to claim that Dolphins are similar to intelligence as humans! (post 168) and provided a link that said dolphins have societies similar to humans, and you misquote the article claiming that because they have societies similar to humans, that they are similar to intelligence. How you made that leap I have no idea.

You specified a type of hatred (arch rival) was the type of hatred you were referring to, you claimed predator/prey are have this type of hatred, and you provided no evidence to back this claim up. When I pointed out to you that a predator animal will attack a human as quickly as any other prey, and humans don’t consider them arch rivals, you refused to address it.

Then you claim that Christians are more forgiving than non Christians, when I challenge you on it, you provide an article that address spirituality; the article didn’t even mention Christianity! When I bring this to your attention, you refuse to address it.

Then you provide an article (post 188)that says ape brains are similar to size as a humans and you try to claim that this means apes are just as intelligent as humans! Nowhere in the article did it compare the intelligence of apes to humans, this is just a leap you’ve decided to take! Of course when I point this out to you, again; you refuse to address it

Now you have the audacity to say that because I don’t have scientific data to back up every opinion I express that we are done??? Thus far you have not provided any scientific data that backs up anything you’ve said; the links you did provide, you grossly misinterpreted it to mean something it obviously did not!

If you want to be taken seriously, here is a list of the following things you need to provide

*define “sacrificial love” and provide scientific evidence humans do this and animals do not.
*provide scientific evidence that brain size has something to do with intelligence
*Provide scientific evidence that Dolphins are similar to intelligence to humans,
*provide scientific evidence that animals have arch rivals like humans
*Provide scientific evidence that Christians are more forgiving than non christians.
*Provide scientific evidence that apes are similar to intelligence to humans

I’m sure there were more empty claims you’ve made but these are a half dozen that come to mind for now.

please reread my posts, your comments are grossly understated. I am done with this topic with you. Readers can clearly see the truth as they read this. If you would like to address a previous post, by all means go ahead, and possibly we can reopen some of this.

 

[createdtoworship]

Would be cool if you addressed my points.

please provide an example of an animal loving it's enemies (with sacrificial love, a love that is not self centered). Then I would love to address any post you wish.

 

[Ken-1122]

please reread my posts, your comments are grossly understated. I am done with this topic with you. Readers can clearly see the truth as they read this. If you would like to address a previous post, by all means go ahead, and possibly we can reopen some of this.

Yeah run away with your tail between your legs. Other people following along will see the absurdity of your posts. I’ve followed some of your posts with gaara4158, and your responses to him are just as absurd as your responses have been with me. His last reply, the guy made some excellent points and you didn’t even bother to address anything he said, instead you responded to something unrelated to what he said. At least you are consistent; unfortunately in this case consistency is not a good thing.

 

[createdtoworship]

Yeah run away with your tail between your legs. Other people following along will see the absurdity of your posts. I’ve followed some of your posts with gaara4158, and your responses to him are just as absurd as your responses have been with me. His last reply, the guy made some excellent points and you didn’t even bother to address anything he said, instead you responded to something unrelated to what he said. At least you are consistent; unfortunately in this case consistency is not a good thing.

I know as an athiest you don't accept evidence as proof. And that is ok. But except evidence as at least evidence. Gaara is stuck on the definition of sacrificial love, which is a no brainer. I don't have time for that. So I went back to the concept he has no answer for, which is finding an animal that has self sacrificial love for it's enemies. (a love that is not selfish, and is costly). And feel free since your so proud of your accomplishments to help your brother out with that. I don't mind traveling there for awhile. (notice I don't defend myself, God defends me as I follow Him, He gives me truth that cannot be defeated).

 

[Ken-1122]

I know as an athiest you don't accept evidence as proof.

Of all your responses to me, please provide a post number where you actually provided scientific evidence that backs up a claim you've made.

 

[Ken-1122]

Gaara is stuck on the definition of sacrificial love, which is a no brainer. I don't have time for that.

It’s not a no brainer because when you go around making up terms like “sacrificial love” such a meaning might mean one thing to you and another thing to me, so if you are going to go around making up terms, the least you can do is define them for the sake of clarity.

So I went back to the concept he has no answer for, which is finding an animal that has self sacrificial love for it's enemies.

I’m not convinced animals have enemies. Unless you can provide evidence that they do, your question is based on an unproven presupposition

 

[createdtoworship]

Of all your responses to me, please provide a post number where you actually provided scientific evidence that backs up a claim you've made.

sir, I provided rational and philosophical evidence, are you not even reading my posts. But I don't have time for this. If you don't believe me that is fine, other readers will find it.

 

[createdtoworship]

It’s not a no brainer because when you go around making up terms like “sacrificial love” such a meaning might mean one thing to you and another thing to me, so if you are going to go around making up terms, the least you can do is define them for the sake of clarity.


I’m not convinced animals have enemies. Unless you can provide evidence that they do, your question is based on an unproven presupposition

This is a settled issue. You cannot provide an animal that loves its enemies in a self sacrificial way. I know you don't believe it has enemies, but this is a common no brainer, again a simple google search of the species then the term "natural enemies" after it will bring up dozens of hits. So again, I am not putting you off or refusing to reply, it's just that some of the stuff you say can be corrected by such little effort that I question your ability to rationalize. I feel you have already disqualified much of your posts by self refutation, I don't even have to reply to them. Again because of this and the fact I am having a bad day today, getting over a cold and transitioning to night shift from day shift, I am not myself, and I am a little bit short tempered. So I am trying to be nice and say that it may be not the best time to talk about this.

 

[Ken-1122]

sir, I provided rational and philosophical evidence, are you not even reading my posts. But I don't have time for this.

If you are going to insist I provide scientific evidence for my opinions, you need to do the same. All I asked for was a post number where you've done this. Is that too much to ask for? Evidently it is.

 

[Ken-1122]

This is a settled issue. You cannot provide an animal that loves its enemies in a self sacrificial way. I know you don't believe it has enemies, but this is a common no brainer.

Then provide evidence that supports your claim that animals have enemies.

 

[createdtoworship]

Then provide evidence that supports your claim that animals have enemies.

I adressed this in my last post.

 

[createdtoworship]

If you are going to insist I provide scientific evidence for my opinions, you need to do the same. All I asked for was a post number where you've done this. Is that too much to ask for? Evidently it is.

sir, it's not really my responsibility to read the thread for you. Please, just go back a few pages and read it. Like I said there are few christians that would come here and believe I didn't back up my claims. That is my target audience. Atheists are not my targeted audience.

 

[Kylie]

please provide an example of an animal loving it's enemies (with sacrificial love, a love that is not self centered). Then I would love to address any post you wish.

WATCH: Caring lion saves calf from being killed by ANOTHER lion in AMAZING act of kindness

The lioness not only did not attack or kill the calf, but it protected it from another lioness. It put its own safety at risk to protect a creature that would normally be prey.