Where does "allah" say...

[français]

Hello Gremlins! (How funny, I watched the Gremlins two nights ago, and I almost never watch 80's movies! Especially movies like the Gremlins, but it was interesting nevertheless! Made me laugh!)

Anyways, I applaud you for your excellent response to applepie in your first post. You make excellent points. And, I totally agree that applepie is bearing false witness! It is good to see a Christian as yourself being honest about these matters! It is also notable that he challenges us yet he never responded to my last post and it has been quite a while. But, oh well. Maybe he is just busy.

English is something of special case, since a) in terms of grammar and phonology it's probably the least conservative language in the Western World(except possibly for French),

Hmm, I find this to be interesting. French is my first language so it comes totally naturally to me, but I have talked to many people who have said that English is harder than French in terms of spelling. I have heard that English is the hardest language in spelling terms besides Gallic!(sp?)

I agree that French has a tonnnn of grammatical rules.. If X and Y letters are together, than it makes Z pronunciation instead of what one would think.

I think overall, English and French are just two languages that you pretty much have to memorize the spelling. Night, knight, nite.. Come, home, sour, colour, color... Just a lot of memorizing! With french, "Les" is pronounced as "Lait", etc etc.

One language that I have fallen in love with is Esperanto. They follow the phonetic rules every time! I have been taking little Esperanto courses on Lernu for only about a week, and I can spell and read Esperanto very well! I have taken their little practice spelling tests and have passed every one! I can even speak basic sentences...

Saluton! Kiel vi fartas? Mia nomo estas Jacques kaj mi estas 22!

I love that there are no irregular verbs.. And that here are no conjugations needed.. Like

yo hablo
tu hablas
él/la haba
etc etc..

With Esperanto it always stays the same! mi estas. vi estas. ni estas! The only time you change it is if you do past/present/future, and past is -IS ending and future is -OS. So simple!

I just thought I would throw that out there because it is an amazing language!

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

إنه لقرءان كريم في كتب مكنون لا يمسه إلا المطهرون تنزيل من رب العلمين أفبهذا الحديث أنتم مدهنون​

Innahu laqur-anun kareemun fee kitabin maknoonin la yamassuhu illa almutahharoona tanzeelun min rabbi alAAalameena afabihatha alhadeethi antum mudhinoona

Truly it is a holy collection. In a Book, carefully guarded. None touches it except the purified ones. The Revelation from the Lord of the jinn and of mankind. So is it with this, the narrative, you adopt a conciliatory attitude? (56.77 – 81)​

Your first example describes to us that the coveted Biblical Book of Revelation (i.e. the narrative) was converted into an Arabic collection (or Koran). ​

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Dear Lord. Insanity alert or what? Revelation is pretty obviously not the proper noun here. It just means that God is revealing the next stage of his plan for Mankind through the prophet Mohammad (if you're a Muslim, that is).

I hope to see Apple Pie respond to this also. ​

 

[Gremlins]

As a boy, I naturally have difficulty following scholastic arguments. But what I know is this: applepie7 is going strong. He's gone deep into Classical Arabic and has carefully examined all the words in the verses. And he is still going strong.

The Muslims in this thread seem to be reluctant to engage applepie7 in this debate.

In my simple mind (and I'm sure all in CF will agree with me), the party who can go on strong with scholastic and academic research must be right. Those who drop out of the debate can only be wrong. As in previous threads, it's always the rest who drop out of the debate leaving applepie7 to continue going strong.

That's why I'm impressed. Applepie7 stands strong while every one of his opponents drops away from the debate. I believe truth always prevails.

The problem is, ApplePie7 is deliberately mistranslating various verses to suit his purposes. This is what we in the business technically call lying. The fact that there don't seem to be any Muslims on here who speak English as a first languages makes it harder for them to argue their case, but really anyone with even a cursory understanding of Arabic can begin to take down his arguments.

 

[Montalban]

IF you want difficult spelling, try Gaelic

 

[sidhe]

Gaelic spelling isn't right.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by beamishboy
As a boy, I naturally have difficulty following scholastic arguments. But what I know is this: applepie7 is going strong. He's gone deep into Classical Arabic and has carefully examined all the words in the verses. And he is still going strong.

The Muslims in this thread seem to be reluctant to engage applepie7 in this debate.

In my simple mind (and I'm sure all in CF will agree with me), the party who can go on strong with scholastic and academic research must be right. Those who drop out of the debate can only be wrong. As in previous threads, it's always the rest who drop out of the debate leaving applepie7 to continue going strong.

That's why I'm impressed. Applepie7 stands strong while every one of his opponents drops away from the debate. I believe truth always prevails.

The problem is, ApplePie7 is deliberately mistranslating various verses to suit his purposes. This is what we in the business technically call lying. The fact that there don't seem to be any Muslims on here who speak English as a first languages makes it harder for them to argue their case, but really anyone with even a cursory understanding of Arabic can begin to take down his arguments.

What are you now defending the Koran? TRAITOR!!!!

1 Thessalonians 3:13 Into the stand-fast of ye, the hearts blameless in together-holiness before the God and Father of us in the Parousia <3952> of the Lord of us, Jesus Christ, with all of the holy-ones of Him [Zech 14:5/Revelation 19:11.]

Reve 19:11 And I perceived the heaven having be opened and Lo! A horse, white and the One sitting on it/him being called Faithful and True and in justice He is judging and is battling. 14 And the armies, the in the heaven, followed to Him on horses, white, having been inslipped/dressed linen, white, clean,

 

[français]

Are you guys speaking about Irish Gaelic, Scottish Gaelic, or both?

Also, how many people speak Gaelic?

I have heard of the language but don't know much about it.. But I have heard it is really hard!

 

[Montalban]

Are you guys speaking about Irish Gaelic, Scottish Gaelic, or both?

Also, how many people speak Gaelic?

I have heard of the language but don't know much about it.. But I have heard it is really hard!

When I did Irish (for a year)* the naming conventions were as follows;

Irish for Irish Gaelic

Gaelic for Scots-Gaelic

If other people have heard differently they're free to add/contradict.

In Scotland there's only about 60,000-80,000 speakers, but due to governments finally pulling their finger out the numbers look like slowly growing.

We've got a small Scots-Gaelic association here in Australia; Comunn Gàidhlig Astràilia (which shows the word order is different as it's Association (of) Gaelic Australia)

In Ireland Irish is the 'official' language taught at schools, but most Irish I've met seem to lose it after as English is sufficient to get one through life.


*-I did it as part of a BA at the University of Sydney

 

[français]

Hmm, very interesting! I did not know that Gaelic(Scottish) had 60,000-80,000 speakers. I mean, it is more than I thought, though certainly not a lot by any means.

That is cool that you have a BA from UOS. I am currently getting my masters, majoring in Sociologie(Sociology) at L'Université du québec à montréal. Classes start again September 2nd. *dread*

I see we have gotten a little off topic.. But hey, why the hell not! I mean, applepie has not been here to address the responses yet!

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by GeorgeTwo This is not first person singular. The question is: Where, in the entire Koran, does "allah" state, in the first-person singular, that he created anything....?

For instance, what ApplePie7 wants is something like this:

- O mankind! I created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that ye may know each other (not that ye may despise each other). Verily the most honored of you in the sight of Me is (he who is) the most righteous of you. And I have full knowledge and is well acquainted (with all things).

That's correct, GeorgeTwo...

Elwill posted ayahs that are written in the first-person plural....but not in the first-person singular.

This tells us that "allah" required help in creating things.

Was the OP ever answered. Perhaps someone, either Muslim or non-Muslim can just provide the verses and translation.

Most of Christianity and the Jews have trouble with the Hebrew/Greek of the Bible, so I suppose Muslims can also have trouble with the Arabic. Peace

 

[Gremlins]

IF you want difficult spelling, try Gaelic

Gaelic spelling is actually perfectly regular, it just has rather tricky rules. Once you've got the basics down it's actually pretty easy to read Gaelic.

 

[Montalban]

Gaelic spelling is actually perfectly regular, it just has rather tricky rules. Once you've got the basics down it's actually pretty easy to read Gaelic.

This is "regular" in Irish...

When you write the word for window you have finneog (fin-yoeg) but putting the definite article* before it to make the window you have to add lenition to the word and it becomes an fhinneog and 'fh' is not pronounced making a pronounciation like ann in-yoeg

You only add lenition certain words. Never after a word starting with 'l', 'n', or 'r', or after an 's', 'sg', 'sm', 'sp', or 'st'.

And you add it to show posession, such as with mo for my. So with the word bean meaning wife, to say my wife it becomes mo bhean


*-an is the definitive article in some cases but this changes too depending upon the initial letter of the following word, and dependant on gender so you can get

an t- in an t-aran
am in am baile
na in na daoine

and other examples.

Whilst these follow rules and are thus 'regular' they're not to me

 

[ApplePie7]

Come to what is common and then analyze did we plagiarized or you guys went astray from the path of Abrahamic faith.

A kinder word than “plagiarized” is copied….or borrowed…and that is exactly what the authors of the Koran did…

 

[ApplePie7]

Dear Lord. Insanity alert or what? Revelation is pretty obviously not the proper noun here. It just means that God is revealing the next stage of his plan for Mankind through the prophet Mohammad (if you're a Muslim, that is).

Please produce a single solitary Koranic ayah which states that someone named "Muhammad" had anything at all to do with the text...

No, all it states is that the Qur'an is carefully guarded. Doesn't say anything about the Bible.

Read the classic definition for "Koran"...

No, the Qur'an probably contains copious amounts of Biblical material because it's the same God who had the book of Revelations and the Qur'an sent to Earth.

The koran states that "allah" is the devil.

What? That is obviously a construct state. It's not 'the book of revelation', it's 'the revelation of the book'. The Arabic name Abdullah doesn't mean 'Servant's God', it means 'Servant of God'. This is exactly the same construction. This verse actually reads:

The revealing of the book is without doubt from the Lord of the Jinn and Mankind

Where are your references?

My Arabic is far from fluent and even I can tell you're wrong.

Where are your references?

 

[ApplePie7]

The problem is, ApplePie7 is deliberately mistranslating various verses to suit his purposes. This is what we in the business technically call lying. The fact that there don't seem to be any Muslims on here who speak English as a first languages makes it harder for them to argue their case, but really anyone with even a cursory understanding of Arabic can begin to take down his arguments.

Pick an ayah that is causing you distress, and we can go over each individual word in that ayah and see who has the better understanding of the text...

 

[ApplePie7]

Was the OP ever answered. Perhaps someone, either Muslim or non-Muslim can just provide the verses and translation.

It appears that the OP still remains unchallenged.

The "allah" of the Koran never once states in the first-person singular that he created anything...

 

[Gremlins]

Where are your references?

What do you mean 'references'? I can manage Arabic, and I can tell you that tanzi:lu-l-kitabi means 'the tanzi:l the book' and not 'the book of tanzi:l'. In exactly the same way that 'abdu-lla:h (as in the common Muslim name) means 'servant of God', not 'God of the Servant'.

Tanzi:l, by the way, strictly means 'movement from above to below'. The closest English term would probably these days be 'download', not revelation.

Do you actually speak Arabic or are you just nabbing stuff of some website somewhere?

 

[Gremlins]

It appears that the OP still remains unchallenged.

The "allah" of the Koran never once states in the first-person singular that he created anything...

Well there's nothing in the first person, but we do have this:

32:4

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Alla:hu aladh'i xalaqa-s-sama:wa:ti wa-l-a:rd'a wa ma: baynahuma: fi: sit' ayya:min thuma istawa: `ala:-l-`arshi ma:lakum min du:nihi min aliyyin wa la: shafi:`in afala: tatadh'akkaru:na

It is Allah who gave the good fortune/blessing of the skies and ground and all between them , tending to them for six days, and is firmly established on the throne; there is no one else who will protect or intercede for you- will you not glorify (him)?

But why does Allah need to do it in the first person? Genesis says 'First God did X, then he did Y', not 'I did X then Y'.

 

[ApplePie7]

What do you mean 'references'? I can manage Arabic, and I can tell you that tanzi:lu-l-kitabi means 'the tanzi:l the book' and not 'the book of tanzi:l'. In exactly the same way that 'abdu-lla:h (as in the common Muslim name) means 'servant of God', not 'God of the Servant'.

Tanzi:l, by the way, strictly means 'movement from above to below'. The closest English term would probably these days be 'download', not revelation.

Do you actually speak Arabic or are you just nabbing stuff of some website somewhere?

Perhaps you are confusing modern Arabic with the extinct classic Arabic.

Again...where are your references...?

 

[ApplePie7]

Well there's nothing in the first person, but we do have this:

32:4

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Alla:hu aladh'i xalaqa-s-sama:wa:ti wa-l-a:rd'a wa ma: baynahuma: fi: sit' ayya:min thuma istawa: `ala:-l-`arshi ma:lakum min du:nihi min aliyyin wa la: shafi:`in afala: tatadh'akkaru:na

It is Allah who gave the good fortune/blessing of the skies and ground and all between them , tending to them for six days, and is firmly established on the throne; there is no one else who will protect or intercede for you- will you not glorify (him)?

Your example is from the third person.

The god "allah" of the Koran is incapable of stating, in the first person singular, that he created anything...because he never did create anything.

Further, the authors of this piece simply copied the '6-day' creation account from the Holy Bible - but left off all the details.

But why does Allah need to do it in the first person?

To show that he is a singular entity with creative power.

Genesis says 'First God did X, then he did Y', not 'I did X then Y'.

The true creator God of the Holy Bible states numerous times, in the first person singular, that He created all things. He is not ashamed to state this, as this is the truth.

The god "allah" cannot do this because he has no power to create.