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And God is the cause of that if you ask me, or caused it or made it so that would happen... Jesus Christ most certainly was and is a major influence on that...I think we might be becoming naturally good in that sense.
Maybe.And God is the cause of that if you ask me, or caused it or made it so that would happen... Jesus Christ most certainly was and is a major influence on that...
God Bless!
My point is that God and Jesus Christ already seemed to know it, and now we are catching on on our own and meeting up with that maybe...?Maybe.
But its hardly a stretch to think that mortal human wisdom would sooner or later discern that social and personal life is generally improved by that attitude.
You've simply stated my own views and knowledge here in several places.
Don't tilt at windmills. Try to find out what's being talked about. We're discussing just how moral, precisely, is human nature. What shade of grey. Light grey or dark grey. By evidence, not a light grey....
My point is that God and Jesus Christ already seemed to know it, and now we are catching on on our own and meeting up with that maybe...?
God Bless!
Not quite; that would be how laws originate; I'm saying morality is a subjective opinion of right vs wrong each person has, and these opinions will vary a little from person to person even though the basics for most may be the same.
When I read the bible and observe the many immoralities contained therein, I'm heavily inclined to disagree.
I think we might be becoming naturally good in that sense.
I'm curious as to how you arrived at the conclusion that the things in the bible you consider to be immoralities are immoral. What is it about those things that causes them to be immoral in your opinion?
Additionally if others were of the opinion that those same things were not immoral, would you think them incorrect or would you consider their opinion equally valid as your own just different?
They increase net suffering.
I would first listen to their case / argument as to why they consider it moral.
Then I'ld dismantle it and show them how they are wrong.
But off course, they'll only agree with me if we first agree on what "good" and "bad" means.
The problem with theists who subscribe to "divine command theory" type of morality, is that to them "good" is whatever their perceived authority commands and "bad" is whatever their perceived authority forbids.
The people who subscribe to such a moral system, actually have no moral compass at all. They don't engage in moral reasoning. They are just being obedient to what they believe is an authority.
We have a word for people who's "morality" is based on such obedience...
It's called "psychopath".
As for me, to put it extremely simplisticly, "good" is that which increases net well-being. "bad" are those things that increase net suffering. "neutral" are those things that don't do either.
In reality, it's a lot more nuanced then that off course and even somewhat dependend on context. But basically, yeah, that's the crux of it.
In summary, it's not really possible to have a reasoned discussion on morality with people who's idea of morality amounts to nothing more then "obedience to a percieved authority".
I say humans are progressively more moral over time.
Ok how do you decide what increases net suffering and what increases net well-being.
It seems to me that is a fairly difficult calculation and one that would differ greatly from one person to the next
As an example one person or group of people might think that the extermination of anyone that disagreed with his/her/their political philosophy was a net well being increase
As for the idea that obedience to authority is the basis for a moral system. That would be the same idea as "might makes right"
That is the basis of law enforced by government , in whatever way government accrues its might
Most people do not agree with that as a personal moral compass but they do seem to agree with it as a collective moral compass.
I would suggest that most theists do not subscribe to the "divine command theory " as you have stated it.
Rather most theists, in particular monotheists who are the majority of theists in the world today, would believe that their deity created everything there is from nothing with some purpose in mind. That being their assumption, it is perfectly logical to conclude that the creator of the thing is best equipped to decide what the thing is supposed to be. Therefore it is not strictly a desire to obey authority that drives the average theist to want to follow the commands of the one that created them with what the theist assumes is a specific purpose in mind, but a willingness to concede that there is a more qualified arbiter of what ought to be and how to live among each other than they are themselves.
As you note, if one does not buy into the basic assumptions of the system, and not believing in the deity to begin with is a big no buy in, one would not find the resulting arguments persuasive.
I say humans are progressively more moral over time.
I see no evidence to support that conclusion.
"Becoming" means change over time.Explain that idea. What do you mean by becoming, what do you mean by naturally and especially what do you mean by good?
For me morality is about the ability to understand the consequences of actions and how those actions affect me and my neighbor. And it starts from the position that what is helpful and fair to me and my neighbor is good and right, and what is harmful and unfair to me and my neighbor is bad and wrong.Out of curiosity, I was wondering how you personally arrive at your opinion about what is right or wrong.
Do we still keep slaves? Why not?
Slavery is when one man is owned by another. Prisoners are not owned by the state, they are being punished by the state.Let's use this one as an example. There are more black men in US prisons today, being forced into manual labour, than there were black slaves in the US in 1850. Slavery isn't gone - it has just changed its form. (And this isn't even counting all the wage slaves.)
I disagree. I think we are just as evil and sinful as we have always been. We just express that evil and sin in different ways, and because we are so steeped in it we don't see it. We see the sin of earlier times more easily because we are removed from it.
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