Where do believers spend eternity?

[ViaCrucis]

Heaven or the new earth or the Kingdom of Heaven on the new earth, or otherwise?

The kingdom isn't a place, it's the reality that God is King. It can be helpful, when reading the Gospels, when we see the Lord talk about the kingdom of God/Heaven to think in terms of "This is what it means for God to be King". So when Jesus says "The kingdom of God/Heaven is like..." it means the same thing as "This is what it means for God to be King".

"Heaven" is a complicated idea. The ordinary sense of "the heavens" (it is always grammatically plural in the Bible) it just means "the skies", which is in contrast to "the earth" or "the land". So in Genesis 1:1 God creates the skies and the land, ha-Shamayim and ha-Eretz respectively. It's why the sun, moon, and stars are in "the heavens", it's why the birds fly in "the heavens"; in contrast there's the land, where things move around on legs or creep on the ground, it's where plants grow, etc. We could get really deep into a lot of ideas here when talking about how ancient people viewed the world, and the ways in which the Bible (written by ancient people for ancient people) both uses and often subverts things; but for simple purposes here ancient people could look up and see the vast expanse of the sky, and they saw mighty things like the sun (often worshiped as a god, often a chief god) and so this is where the gods were, the gods were up there, above all this stuff down here. Sometimes the gods literally were on a mountain looking down from the sky upon the mortal realm, such as the Greeks and the gods of Mt. Olympus. So when the Bible talks about God as in the heavens, or more importantly, as being above and higher than the heavens, it is a way of talking about God's Lordship over the world, and all the affairs of men. And so the heavens, in this sense, becomes a kind of second-hand way to talk about God's presence and power. This is why "kingdom of heaven" and "kingdom of God" are synonymous, in Matthew's Gospel Matthew uses "kingdom of heaven" where in the exact same words of Jesus as recorded by Mark and Luke we see "kingdom of God". That's also the significance of Jesus' Ascension into the heavens, to be seated at the right hand of God the Father, He is the Son of Man taken before the Ancient of Days and given everlasting kingdom and dominion.

So with all that in mind about "heaven', the fundamental idea being spoken about isn't that there is a "place" somewhere up there where God is. It's that "heaven" is a way of talking about the way God is Lord over the universe. And so, for example, Paul writes that we (even right now) are "seated with Christ in heavenly places", we are in Christ, and partake of Christ, so that even as He reigns and rules as Lord and King right now, we are in and with Him; and also we read that our citizenship, is of the heavens, because we belong to the Heavenly King, and His eternal kingdom. And so when we talk about "going to heaven" when we die, the meaning is that we go and have our rest, between death and resurrection, with the Lord. The Bible never once talks about "going to heaven when we die", but the Bible does talk about being in the presence of the Lord while away from the body, the Bible does record Jesus saying, "I go and prepare a place for you, that where I am you shall be also". The Bible does describe the departed martyrs and saints as being before God and the heavenly altar. So we have, as shorthand for this, spoken of "going to heaven" as a way to describe our post-mortem, pre-resurrection existence in a state of rest with the Lord.

The ultimate vision for all creation, the redemption and restoration of all things, is God setting all of creation to rights. That's "new heavens and new earth", let's note that "new heavens" again speaks of the skies. "The heavens and the earth" again is a way to talk about all material creation, the sky (what's up there) and the land (what's down here)--God is going to make all things new, set all things to rights. So we read in the Prophet Isaiah of the day when men shall beat their swords into plowshares and spears into pruning shears; we read about the lion eating straw like an ox, the wolf and lamb laying together, the child at the viper's den without fear--because all is made well. When the Lord comes and God makes all things new, there is resurrection, we ourselves shall be raised up (literally, bodily); and this redemptive, resurrection power is for all creation. That is what St. Paul is getting at in Romans 8 when he talks about creation groaning in labor pains, in the hope and longing of the resurrection of the dead.

So where do we spend eternity? As part of God's good creation, the earth shall be filled with the glory of God even as the seas are filled with water, justice shall flow like an everflowing stream, the days are coming when even lions and leopards shall exist in peace with lambs, kid-goats, where toddlers can play with vipers near their dens, and mankind exists in true peace, all creation at peace, justice for all things--God will be all in all. This is the Day when heaven (in the sense of the Sovereign Lordship of God) comes down to earth--that's what St. John in the Revelation is getting at when he talks about how the heavenly city comes down, and God is with man, and that there is no need for a temple, or for sun or moon, and that there is no sea (in biblical language the sea often serves symbolically to refer to foreign threats and unknown dangers). "He will wipe away every tear from their eyes".

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Joseph G]

The kingdom isn't a place, it's the reality that God is King. It can be helpful, when reading the Gospels, when we see the Lord talk about the kingdom of God/Heaven to think in terms of "This is what it means for God to be King". So when Jesus says "The kingdom of God/Heaven is like..." it means the same thing as "This is what it means for God to be King".

"Heaven" is a complicated idea. The ordinary sense of "the heavens" (it is always grammatically plural in the Bible) it just means "the skies", which is in contrast to "the earth" or "the land". So in Genesis 1:1 God creates the skies and the land, ha-Shamayim and ha-Eretz respectively. It's why the sun, moon, and stars are in "the heavens", it's why the birds fly in "the heavens"; in contrast there's the land, where things move around on legs or creep on the ground, it's where plants grow, etc. We could get really deep into a lot of ideas here when talking about how ancient people viewed the world, and the ways in which the Bible (written by ancient people for ancient people) both uses and often subverts things; but for simple purposes here ancient people could look up and see the vast expanse of the sky, and they saw mighty things like the sun (often worshiped as a god, often a chief god) and so this is where the gods were, the gods were up there, above all this stuff down here. Sometimes the gods literally were on a mountain looking down from the sky upon the mortal realm, such as the Greeks and the gods of Mt. Olympus. So when the Bible talks about God as in the heavens, or more importantly, as being above and higher than the heavens, it is a way of talking about God's Lordship over the world, and all the affairs of men. And so the heavens, in this sense, becomes a kind of second-hand way to talk about God's presence and power. This is why "kingdom of heaven" and "kingdom of God" are synonymous, in Matthew's Gospel Matthew uses "kingdom of heaven" where in the exact same words of Jesus as recorded by Mark and Luke we see "kingdom of God". That's also the significance of Jesus' Ascension into the heavens, to be seated at the right hand of God the Father, He is the Son of Man taken before the Ancient of Days and given everlasting kingdom and dominion.

So with all that in mind about "heaven', the fundamental idea being spoken about isn't that there is a "place" somewhere up there where God is. It's that "heaven" is a way of talking about the way God is Lord over the universe. And so, for example, Paul writes that we (even right now) are "seated with Christ in heavenly places", we are in Christ, and partake of Christ, so that even as He reigns and rules as Lord and King right now, we are in and with Him; and also we read that our citizenship, is of the heavens, because we belong to the Heavenly King, and His eternal kingdom. And so when we talk about "going to heaven" when we die, the meaning is that we go and have our rest, between death and resurrection, with the Lord. The Bible never once talks about "going to heaven when we die", but the Bible does talk about being in the presence of the Lord while away from the body, the Bible does record Jesus saying, "I go and prepare a place for you, that where I am you shall be also". The Bible does describe the departed martyrs and saints as being before God and the heavenly altar. So we have, as shorthand for this, spoken of "going to heaven" as a way to describe our post-mortem, pre-resurrection existence in a state of rest with the Lord.

The ultimate vision for all creation, the redemption and restoration of all things, is God setting all of creation to rights. That's "new heavens and new earth", let's note that "new heavens" again speaks of the skies. "The heavens and the earth" again is a way to talk about all material creation, the sky (what's up there) and the land (what's down here)--God is going to make all things new, set all things to rights. So we read in the Prophet Isaiah of the day when men shall beat their swords into plowshares and spears into pruning shears; we read about the lion eating straw like an ox, the wolf and lamb laying together, the child at the viper's den without fear--because all is made well. When the Lord comes and God makes all things new, there is resurrection, we ourselves shall be raised up (literally, bodily); and this redemptive, resurrection power is for all creation. That is what St. Paul is getting at in Romans 8 when he talks about creation groaning in labor pains, in the hope and longing of the resurrection of the dead.

So where do we spend eternity? As part of God's good creation, the earth shall be filled with the glory of God even as the seas are filled with water, justice shall flow like an everflowing stream, the days are coming when even lions and leopards shall exist in peace with lambs, kid-goats, where toddlers can play with vipers near their dens, and mankind exists in true peace, all creation at peace, justice for all things--God will be all in all. This is the Day when heaven (in the sense of the Sovereign Lordship of God) comes down to earth--that's what St. John in the Revelation is getting at when he talks about how the heavenly city comes down, and God is with man, and that there is no need for a temple, or for sun or moon, and that there is no sea (in biblical language the sea often serves symbolically to refer to foreign threats and unknown dangers). "He will wipe away every tear from their eyes".

-CryptoLutheran

"... and the ways in which the Bible (written by ancient people for ancient people) both uses and often subverts things..."

That's where I quit reading and said a prayer for you. You have a nice day...

 

[ViaCrucis]

"... and the ways in which the Bible (written by ancient people for ancient people) both uses and often subverts things..."

That's where I quit reading and said a prayer for you. You have a nice day...

Which statement do you find disagreeable? That God inspired ancient people to write the Bible, or that God uses His word to subvert our expectations?

-CryptoLutheran

 

[JulieB67]

I believe we will spend eternity on the new earth.

 

[Mikeys]

“Truly, I say to you, TODAY you will be with me IN PARADISE.”

- Jesus telling another man, almost 2000 years ago. (Luke 23:43)

 

[Jeff Saunders]

I believe we will spend eternity on the new earth.

then why does scripture say we are citizens of heaven?

 

[JulieB67]

then why does scripture say we are citizens of heaven?

As others have already stated we will have a new heaven and earth and God will bring his realm down from Heaven. And wherever God dwells, therein lies "Heaven" so to speak.

God's going to turn this earth back to it's prior glory and as stated the "meek shall inherit it".

 

[Dan Perez]

then why does scripture say we are citizens of heaven?

And 1 Cor 6:2 says that we will GOVERN the UNIVERSE and says you better learn how to JUDGE in verse 2 !!

And verse 3 says we will also GOVERN Angels !!

dan p

 

[ViaCrucis]

then why does scripture say we are citizens of heaven?

Specifically Scripture says our citizenship (πολίτευμα, politeuma) is in the heavens (Philippians 3:20), though the word translated as "is" is hypoarchei, "to begin", "to come from"; thus "and we eagerly await the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ who will transform our lowly bodies be like His glorious body".

That we are "citizens of heaven" is probably not incorrect, but the specific nuance is that Christ is King and Lord, who reigns in the heavens at the right hand of the Father, from which He will return and raise the dead, wherein the dead are transfigured, that as our bodies now are soulish and corruptible and mortal; in the resurrection our bodies are transformed to be made Spiritual, incorruptible, and immortal even as Christ's physical body is, having been raised as the first-fruits from the dead.

The concept of politeuma is the administration of government, which is in the heavens and is from there, because Jesus is Lord and King Messiah seated at the right hand of the Father.

We are citizens, we are partakers, of the royal power and rule and reign of the Messiah as members of His Church and Body. This is also why St. Paul says that we are (present tense) seated with Christ in heavenly places. Through our baptism by which we have been united to Jesus Christ, to His death and resurrection, we share in the inheritance of Christ as co-heirs, and children of God with Christ who is the only-begotten of the Father; so that we have sonship as grace by our union to Christ and the presence, power, work, and indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Our eternal estate isn't a "place" called "Heaven"; it's the rich abundance of life and new creation which God is pouring forth out, through His Son, so that all things in heaven and earth shall be summed up and united in Him (Ephesians 1:10), for all things were made by Christ and for Christ, as He is the prototokos of all creation (Colossians 1:15-16). And that means the renewal and restoration of all creation. And thus the royal power and authority of God from/in the heavens, as He is Sovereign over all things shall, ultimately, be brought in fullness to the world, that's "new heavens and new earth".

Between death and resurrection we are with the Lord, in His presence, as we eagerly await the resurrection of our bodies.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Dan Perez]

Specifically Scripture says our citizenship (πολίτευμα, politeuma) is in the heavens (Philippians 3:20), though the word translated as "is" is hypoarchei, "to begin", "to come from"; thus "and we eagerly await the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ who will transform our lowly bodies be like His glorious body".

That we are "citizens of heaven" is probably not incorrect, but the specific nuance is that Christ is King and Lord, who reigns in the heavens at the right hand of the Father, from which He will return and raise the dead, wherein the dead are transfigured, that as our bodies now are soulish and corruptible and mortal; in the resurrection our bodies are transformed to be made Spiritual, incorruptible, and immortal even as Christ's physical body is, having been raised as the first-fruits from the dead.

The concept of politeuma is the administration of government, which is in the heavens and is from there, because Jesus is Lord and King Messiah seated at the right hand of the Father.

We are citizens, we are partakers, of the royal power and rule and reign of the Messiah as members of His Church and Body. This is also why St. Paul says that we are (present tense) seated with Christ in heavenly places. Through our baptism by which we have been united to Jesus Christ, to His death and resurrection, we share in the inheritance of Christ as co-heirs, and children of God with Christ who is the only-begotten of the Father; so that we have sonship as grace by our union to Christ and the presence, power, work, and indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Our eternal estate isn't a "place" called "Heaven"; it's the rich abundance of life and new creation which God is pouring forth out, through His Son, so that all things in heaven and earth shall be summed up and united in Him (Ephesians 1:10), for all things were made by Christ and for Christ, as He is the prototokos of all creation (Colossians 1:15-16). And that means the renewal and restoration of all creation. And thus the royal power and authority of God from/in the heavens, as He is Sovereign over all things shall, ultimately, be brought in fullness to the world, that's "new heavens and new earth".

Between death and resurrection we are with the Lord, in His presence, as we eagerly await the resurrection of our bodies.

-CryptoLutheran

And jus asking , you says that between DEATH and RESSURRECTION we are with then Lord will you please give a verse ??

dan p

 

[ViaCrucis]

And jus asking , you says that between DEATH and RESSURRECTION we are with then Lord will you please give a verse ??

dan p

"Yes, we are confident, and we would rather be away from the body and present with the Lord." - 2 Corinthians 5:8

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Dan Perez]

"Yes, we are confident, and we would rather be away from the body and present with the Lord." - 2 Corinthians 5:8

-CryptoLutheran

And I believe that 2 Cor 5:8 is correct and here is it meaning !

# 1 WE ARE COFIDENT // THARREO , is in the PRESENT TENSE , ACTIVE VOICE , INDICATIVE MOOD , in the PLURAL

# 2 AND // KAI -a conjuncation

# 3 WILLING // EUDUKEO , in the PRESENT TENSE , ACTIVE VOICE , in the INDICATIVE MOOD in e PLURAL

# 4 RATHER // MALLON is a ADVERB

# 5 TO BE ASENT // EKDEMEO in the AORIST TENSE , and in the ACTIVE VOICE

# 6 FROM // EK is a PROPOSITION

# 7 THE // a DEFINITE ARTICLE , in the GENITIVE CASE , in the SINGULAR

# 8 BODY // SOMA in the GENITIVE CASE , in the SIGULAR , in the NEUTER meaning Male and Female

# 9 THE // HO , a DEFINITE ARTICLE , in the GENITIVE CASE in the SINGULAR

# 10 TO BE PRESENT // ENDEMEO , in the Aorist Tense , in the ACTIVE VOICE ,

# 11 WITH // PROS , is a PORPOSITION

# 12 THE // is a DIFINITE ARTICLE , ACCUSATIVE CASE in the SINGULAR

# 13 LORD // KYRIOS , in the ACCUSATIVE CASE in the SINGULAR .

But there is ONE word missing ere and it is the word RESURRECTION !!

dan p