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Where did the laws of nature come from?

KCfromNC

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I said it was negligible as the paper stated for evolving gene networks which is another way of saying creating gene networks.

But you tried to use this as evidence to support you claim that natural selection was negligible. If your claim had anything to do specifically with gene networks the paper might be useful. But instead, it says not that natural selection is negligible, but that it is one of the 4 fundamental forces of evolution. And despite this you continue to say the paper claims the opposite.
That's not a good way to be taken seriously. I also don't imagine it does anything helpful to whatever theology you're trying to bolster, but that's a separate issue.

If the papers are not stating that natural selection plays a negligible, or insufficient role then what do these statements mean

There is no consistent tendency of evolution towards increased genomic complexity, and when complexity increases, this appears to be a non-adaptive consequence of evolution under weak purifying selection rather than an adaptation.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2651812/

This means that complexity may not be the result of selection. That has nothing to do with your claim that selection is negligible, just that it isn't the only thing which drives evolution. Didn't I correct you on this multiple times already?

This Analysis shows that many of the qualitative features of known transcriptional networks can arise readily through the non-adaptive processes of genetic drift, mutation and recombination, raising questions about whether natural selection is necessary or even sufficient for the origin of many aspects of gene-network topologies.
http://www.nature.com/nrg/journal/v8/n10/abs/nrg2192.html

This means that transcriptional networks may not be the result of selection. That has nothing to do with your claim that selection is negligible, just that it isn't the only thing which drives evolution.

Any other papers you need help understanding?
 
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RickG

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You havnt been following the debate and I am surprised to be honest for someone who is a believer and also supports aspects of evolution that you take this stand. It only confirms to me that some choose to just see the debate in two camps evolution and creationism. I haven't supplied any support from creationists sites and if you check all the papers come from mainstream scientists and sites who actually support evolution in some ways. The arguments are based on the scientific evidence.
Are you aware that there are mainstream Christian denominations that have public statements that they do not discredit evolution? The comment I previously made and you are responding to is based on my knowledge of and experience with the creation science literature. It is not just another view of science, it is "intellectually dishonest" science, whether intentional or not.
 
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stevevw

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I notice your quote says "many aspects of genomic, cellular, and developmental evolution", i.e. not all of evolution.

In the paper itself, we can discover what is hidden by such cherry picking:

"First, evolution is a population-genetic process governed by four fundamental forces. Darwin articulated one of those forces, the process of natural selection... The remaining three evolutionary forces are nonadaptive in the sense that they are not a function of the fitness properties of individuals.
... all four major forces play a substantial role in genomic evolution.
"

So we can see explicit acknowledgement that natural selection is the only evolutionary force that is adaptive, i.e. a function of fitness, and it plays a substantial role in genomic evolution.

'nuff said.
I'm glad you established that natural selection is the only adaptive force. Because the same paper clearly states as far as the origins of gene networks and the continued evolutionary trend towards complexity is concerned adaptive forces are not responsible. It is non adaptive forces that are more likely to have established, evolved and develop gene networks for complex life.

I had already posted the section you have just mentioned. But its ironic that you talk about whats hidden and missed because you have also not mentioned the many other references to natural selection that show I am correct in saying the papers are clearly saying that natural selection is not and cannot evolve gene networks and complex life. As stated several times now natural selection may play a substantial role but its not in the evolution of gene networks for complex life and that is what I am talking about. Evolution claims that natural selection and random mutations are solely responsible for the evolution of life from the first universal common ancestor which was a single celled life then evolved everything else including all complex life through to what we see today. The papers clearly say that natural selection is not up to doing that and this is what you are not admitting or addressing.

Once again can you tell me what these statements say from the same paper.

What is in question is whether natural selection is a necessary or sufficient force to explain the emergence of the genomic and cellular features central to the building of complex organisms.

Jacob (1977) argues that “it is natural selection that gives direction to changes, orients chance, and slowly, progressively produces more complex structures, new organs, and new species.” The vast majority of biologists almost certainly agree with such statements. But where is the direct supportive evidence for the assumption that complexity is rooted in adaptive processes? No existing observations support such a claim, and given the massive global dominance of unicellular species over multicellular eukaryotes, both in terms of species richness and numbers of individuals, if there is an advantage of organismal complexity, one can only marvel at the inability of natural selection to promote it. Multicellular species experience reduced population sizes, reduced recombination rates, and increased deleterious mutation rates, all of which diminish the efficiency of selection (Lynch, 2007). It may be no coincidence that such species also have substantially higher extinction rates than do unicellular taxa (Raup, 1978;
Stanley, 1985).

It has long been known that natural selection is just one of several mechanisms of evolutionary change, but the myth that all of evolution can be explained by adaptation continues to be perpetuated by our continued homage to Darwin’s treatise (1859b) in the popular literature.

many aspects of genomic, cellular, and developmental evolution can only be understood by invoking a negligible level of adaptive involvement (Kimura, 1983; Lynch, 2007).

The following statements from the paper show where natural selection fits with the other non adaptive forces. Rather than play a substantial role in the evolution of complex gene networks and complex life it states that the effects of these non random forces can direct evolution to encourage the fixation of mildly deleterious mutations and discourage beneficial ones. So these non adaptive forces are not only more responsible to evolving complex life they actually work against the mechanisms of how Darwinian evolution works through natural selection acting on beneficial mutations.

Because all three nonadaptive forces of evolution are stochastic in nature, this conclusion raises some significant technical challenges. It is tempting to think that stochastic processes have no implications for the direction of evolution. However, the effects of mutation and recombination are nonrandom, and by magnifying the role of chance, genetic drift indirectly imposes directionality on evolution by encouraging the fixation of mildly deleterious mutations and discouraging the promotion of beneficial mutations

Here is where the paper is showing how the four forces work with population genetics for which you claim it is saying that natural selection is substantial for evolving complex life. Here it is saying that not only is natural selection insufficient for evolving complex life but it promotes the opposite of

Thus, contrary to popular belief, natural selection may not only be an insufficient mechanism for the origin of genetic modularity, but population-genetic environments that maximize the efficiency of natural selection may actually promote the opposite situation, alleles under unified transcriptional control.

So taken all together we see the true context of what the paper is saying the role and capabilities of natural selection is for evolving complex life which is all life after simple single celled life. The author would not be stating two opposing positions at the same time. You pick out a single line in the paper and claim that it is saying natural selection is substantial for evolving complex life. It may be substantial but its role in actually evolving complex gene networks is insufficient, negligible and actually promotes the opposite as the papers state.

If you disagree with this then you tell me what these above statements mean if they dont mean what I have said.

This paper explains further why non adaptive forces are more responsible for how life changes and the emergence of complex life. Its not just a case of saying it happens to diminish natural selection. It explains how non adaptive mechanisms work. For example in developmental biology the evolution of new traits are through development bias where certain forms/features are more favored and therefore repeated in different animals. Darwin's evolution would call this convergent evolution but that relies on incredible coincidence.

Rather than selection being free to traverse across any physical possibility, it is guided along specific routes opened up by the processes of development5, 6.

developmental bias occurs when individuals respond to their environment by changing their form — a phenomenon called plasticity. For instance, leaf shape changes with soil water and chemistry. The standard evolutionary theory views this plasticity as merely fine-tuning, or even noise. The Extended Evolutionary Synthesis sees it as a plausible first step in adaptive evolution. The key finding here is that plasticity not only allows organisms to cope in new environmental conditions but to generate traits that are well-suited to them.
http://www.nature.com/news/does-evolutionary-theory-need-a-rethink-1.16080

So non adaptive forces like developmental evolution can produce the basic trait/feature through set pathways that are followed rather than natural selection and random mutations trying to find that needle in the hay stack beneficial situation in among a vast sea of other possible outcomes including many harmful mutations which sidetrack evolution. Organisms work with their environments as though it was a conduit such as with symbiosis which allow life to get the right types of traits needed for that particular environment.

That is why non adaptive forces make more sense, because they work with life and produce what is need rather than blindly trying to find it through natural selection. Once those traits are found then natural selection can refine them. This all makes sense for how we see sudden appearances of complex variety in the fossil records. Life had a helping hand to find the right stuff through non adaptive processes to find the right stuff.
 
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stevevw

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Are you aware that there are mainstream Christian denominations that have public statements that they do not discredit evolution? The comment I previously made and you are responding to is based on my knowledge of and experience with the creation science literature. It is not just another view of science, it is "intellectually dishonest" science, whether intentional or not.
I dont know much about these religions and what they believe in. It doesn't make sense to have creation science as it is a contradiction. Creationists believe in things like the earth is only 6,000 years old and to use science to prove that is a long stretch. I am not doing that and I am focusing on a particular aspect on evolution and using the mainstream science which I happen to agree with to support it. If a creationists was trying to use science to say that the earth is only 6,000 years old then they would have to find some fringe support or create their own support to do so. What I am talking about is a common understanding from mainstream science in the first place and is well accepted in modern evolution.
 
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RickG

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I dont know much about these religions and what they believe in. It doesn't make sense to have creation science as it is a contradiction. Creationists believe in things like the earth is only 6,000 years old and to use science to prove that is a long stretch. I am not doing that and I am focusing on a particular aspect on evolution and using the mainstream science which I happen to agree with to support it. If a creationists was trying to use science to say that the earth is only 6,000 years old then they would have to find some fringe support or create their own support to do so. What I am talking about is a common understanding from mainstream science in the first place and is well accepted in modern evolution.
Stevevw, I don't have a problem with a literal belief of the bible and a 6,000 year old belief based on the bible and only the bible. What I do have a problem with is the deliberate misrepresentation of science (creation science) to support those beliefs.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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I'm glad you established that natural selection is the only adaptive force. Because the same paper clearly states as far as the origins of gene networks and the continued evolutionary trend towards complexity is concerned adaptive forces are not responsible. It is non adaptive forces that are more likely to have established, evolved and develop gene networks for complex life.
...
Nevertheless, they clearly state that natural selection is the adaptive force that makes organisms fitter for their environment. That non-adaptive forces can generate complexity is fine - natural selection simply ensures that only the fittest, whether more or less complex, will contribute further to the gene pool. The long-term results are the combined actions of the evolutionary forces involved.

It's good that the mechanisms by which complexity arises are being explained, and I'm glad to see you're quoting from papers that describe the ways complexity can arise in evolution - too often one hears the tired refrain that it can't happen.
 
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stevevw

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Stevevw, I don't have a problem with a literal belief of the bible and a 6,000 year old belief based on the bible and only the bible. What I do have a problem with is the deliberate misrepresentation of science (creation science) to support those beliefs.
Science cannot prove God and creation as they are two different areas. I dont have a problem of someone believing whatever they want to believe. Anyone can misrepresent science including supporters of evolution. In fact I would say its more obvious for people to try and use science to support religious beliefs because they are opposing. But its harder to tell when someone is using science to support a world view of things. Its the person behind the science or religion that can misrepresent and all humans are susceptible to bias.
 
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RickG

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Science cannot prove God and creation as they are two different areas. I dont have a problem of someone believing whatever they want to believe. Anyone can misrepresent science including supporters of evolution. In fact I would say its more obvious for people to try and use science to support religious beliefs because they are opposing. But its harder to tell when someone is using science to support a world view of things. Its the person behind the science or religion that can misrepresent and all humans are susceptible to bias.
:oldthumbsup:
 
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stevevw

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Nevertheless, they clearly state that natural selection is the adaptive force that makes organisms fitter for their environment. That non-adaptive forces can generate complexity is fine - natural selection simply ensures that only the fittest, whether more or less complex, will contribute further to the gene pool. The long-term results are the combined actions of the evolutionary forces involved.

It's good that the mechanisms by which complexity arises are being explained, and I'm glad to see you're quoting from papers that describe the ways complexity can arise in evolution - too often one hears the tired refrain that it can't happen.
Thanks , I agree that its good to be able to discuss all aspects of the topics.
 
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I am not sure what you are saying here.
Your inability to understand the papers you have cited is not my problem, stevevw.
Maybe we should start with an easier question before giving up on all hope of you understanding what you cite.
8 August 2016 stevevw: Do you understand that quote mining is definitely misleading and close to lying, e.g. removing "all four major forces play a substantial role in genomic evolution" from what you quoted from Lynch?

The frailty of adaptive hypotheses for the origins of organismal complexity
Second, all four major forces play a substantial role in genomic evolution. It is impossible to understand evolution purely in terms of natural selection, and many aspects of genomic, cellular, and developmental evolution can only be understood by invoking a negligible level of adaptive involvement (12, 13). Because all three nonadaptive forces of evolution are stochastic in nature, this conclusion raises some significant technical challenges. It is tempting to think that stochastic processes have no implications for the direction of evolution. However, the effects of mutation and recombination are nonrandom, and by magnifying the role of chance, genetic drift indirectly imposes directionality on evolution by encouraging the fixation of mildly deleterious mutations and discouraging the promotion of beneficial mutations.
Emphasized again what you quote mined.

19 July 2016 stevevw: Three citations that do not state "Natural selection (adaptive forces) are negligible and/or minimal..." :eek:!
19 July 2016 stevevw: Can you give the scientific evidence "showing that most of the ability for life to change is coming from non adaptive influences such as HGT or in development"?
21 July 2016 stevevw: The hint of cherry picking sources to suit your case even when they do not support you.
21 July 2016 stevevw: Like "not a giant" does not mean "is a dwarf".
28 July 2016 stevevw: The record of the "negligible and/or minimal" assertion.
29 July 2016 stevevw: "many aspects of genomic, cellular, and developmental evolution" is not all or even most of evolution :eek:!
29 July 2016 stevevw: Quote mining to hide the context of a quote is bad scholarship. Lynch states that "all four major forces play a substantial role in genomic evolution".
29 July 2016 stevevw: Cutting references from a quote is not good scholarship.

5 August 2016 stevevw: A Lynch citation to a quote starting "all four major forces play a substantial role in genomic evolution" explicitly debunks a "minor role or not much role at all" claim.
 
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Loudmouth

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Second what are gene networks or complex genetic networks which are both mentioned and how do they come about according to evolution theory. According to evolution these networks evolve. How else would they say they came about. You just have to use logic and common sense to know they are talking about evolution. The reason they are questioning natural selections role is because that is what has been said to be one of the main forces for evolution. Why else would the paper be questioning natural selections role if it wasn't about evolution.

And there you go again trying to turn a limited case into a general trend.

So how is it not evolution.

How is that all of evolution?

You are also trying to make things so fixed on particular words as to make it a blinkered view of things to take things out of context and do exactly what you are accusing me of.

Projection much? What you are describing is exactly what you are doing.
 
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Radrook

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It's possible there is no alternative. The 'laws' are the only consistent way that things can be.
That doesn't harmonize with the theoretical statements physicists make concerning alternate universes and dimensions where the laws of nature are described as differing drastically from our own.

Merrimack College Physics Department associate professor Craig W. Looney used quantum mechanics to support his lecture in Mendel Hall Feb. 27 that there are likely alternative realities to our own.
http://www.merrimack.edu/live/news/2207-physics-professor-explores-alternate-realities
 
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stevevw

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Your inability to understand the papers you have cited is not my problem, stevevw.
I understand the papers well and have posted personal extended summaries of them many times. I think it is you that are not understanding them by some of the comments you make like there is no limits to natural selection when it has now been acknowledged that there is even by those on your side who disagree with the papers.
Maybe we should start with an easier question before giving up on all hope of you understanding what you cite.
8 August 2016 stevevw: Do you understand that quote mining is definitely misleading and close to lying, e.g. removing "all four major forces play a substantial role in genomic evolution" from what you quoted from Lynch?
I had included that section of the paper already in case you have missed it. That was the section that began the debate about natural selection not being quantitatively dominate. It came after the part that stated that all four forces played a substantial role.

As I have already explained that statement does not refer to natural selections ability to evolve complex gene networks because I have posted the many statements by the same author who says that natural selection is minor or insufficient. But you are quick to point out this mall contradiction in your mind but not so quick to recognized the fact that the papers do state the insignificant role natural selection plays in evolving complex gene networks. So who is the one really quote mining. I have acknowledge both whereas you are not.

This is all a confusing mish mash of accusations. I have already replied to most of this but it is continually reused over and over without any context to what it is referring to apart from linking back to the same things that have already been dealt with. That is why I broke things down to single points so we could deal with them. But instead you reverted back to this mind field of irrelevant posts that make it hard to be specific. By overloading the post with all these things only avoids being specific and therefore not being pinned down on a point.
 
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stevevw

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And there you go again trying to turn a limited case into a general trend.
No as I had pointed out before which you ignored that the paper is saying this. If they are not then can you explain what they are referring to.

Here is how the paper entitled
Darwinian evolution in the light of genomics.
So even the title tells you its about questioning Darwin evolution. The introduction states it is testing the central tenets of evolution. You cant get more general than that. Its not saying they are going to test a small aspect of evolution. They are testing the central tenets of evolution which are the main mechanisms of evolution.

Comparative genomics and systems biology offer unprecedented opportunities for testing central tenets of evolutionary biology formulated by Darwin in the Origin of Species in 1859 and expanded in the Modern Synthesis 100 years later.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2651812/

As this article below describes the central tenets of evolution covers all of evolution,
Darwin's Theory of Evolution by Natural Selection
  1. More individuals are produced each generation that can survive.
  2. Phenotypic variation exists among individuals and the variation is heritable.
  3. Those individuals with heritable traits better suited to the environment will survive.
  4. When reproductive isolation occurs new species will form.
These are the basic tenets of evolution by natural selection as defined by Darwin.
https://www.ndsu.edu/pubweb/~mcclean/plsc431/popgen/popgen5.htm

Here is the other paper and it starts out
The vast majority of biologists engaged in evolutionary studies interpret virtually every aspect of biodiversity in adaptive terms. This narrow view of evolution has become untenable in light of recent observations from genomic sequencing and population-genetic theory. Numerous aspects of genomic architecture, gene structure, and developmental pathways are difficult to explain without invoking the nonadaptive forces of genetic drift and mutation.

Even if I was to say that the above paper isn't talking about all of evolution which it is. Its still talking about major components of the theory. Too many to say its just a small aspect or something specific. When it says numerous it means a lot of what happens in evolution. But its a lot about what happens in development pathways, genomic architecture, gene structure which are what evolution is all about.

Heres another paper that clearly states it is talking about a revision of evolution and goes on to talk about how evolution needs a rethink discussing the non adaptive forces I mentioned. It specifically talks about the entire theory and that it needs a rethink not some small part of evolution. Once again the heading tells you its about all of evolution.

Does evolutionary theory need a rethink?
Core values
The core of current evolutionary theory was forged in the 1930s and 1940s. It combined natural selection, genetics and other fields into a consensus about how evolution occurs.
The story that SET (Standard Evolution Theory) tells is simple: new variation arises through random genetic mutation; inheritance occurs through DNA; and natural selection is the sole cause of adaptation, the process by which organisms become well-suited to their environments.
In our view, this ‘gene-centric’ focus fails to capture the full gamut of processes that direct evolution.

Then the paper goes on to talk about how the non adaptive forces are responsible for how life changes.

Rather than just object and complain that you think I am making these papers something they are not by claiming they are not talking about all of evolution can you explain to me what the above papers mean when they refer to their headings and introductions. Can you explain how it doesn't mean all of evolution in what they are talking about.

How is that all of evolution?

Projection much? What you are describing is exactly what you are doing.
Are you serious. Its like you are purposely pretending that you didn't understand the papers. OK Ill ask you what does the papers mean then when they mention

"given the massive global dominance of unicellular species over multicellular eukaryotes, both in terms of species richness and numbers of individuals, if there is an advantage of organismal complexity, one can only marvel at the inability of natural selection to promote it.

I posted this in my last post and you didn't explain how it isn't referring to all of complex life when it states that one can only marvel at natural selections inability to promote all multicellular eukaryotes life. Not just one or two or section but all.
 
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Loudmouth

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No as I had pointed out before which you ignored that the paper is saying this.

The paper is not saying that natural selection is negligible for all of evolution.

Are you serious. Its like you are purposely pretending that you didn't understand the papers. OK Ill ask you what does the papers mean then when they mention

"given the massive global dominance of unicellular species over multicellular eukaryotes, both in terms of species richness and numbers of individuals, if there is an advantage of organismal complexity, one can only marvel at the inability of natural selection to promote it.

I posted this in my last post and you didn't explain how it isn't referring to all of complex life when it states that one can only marvel at natural selections inability to promote all multicellular eukaryotes life. Not just one or two or section but all.

Notice that it just focuses on complexity and not all of evolution.
 
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stevevw

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The paper is not saying that natural selection is negligible for all of evolution.
I disagree but it seems we are stuck on meaning here. You are focusing on being very specific and not reading the paper in context by only looking at the natural selection and negligible point. So I will stick with that for a moment. The statemnet says that natural selection is negligible when it comes to many aspects of genomic, cellular, and developmental evolution.

It is impossible to understand evolution purely in terms of natural selection, and many aspects of genomic, cellular, and developmental evolution can only be understood by invoking a negligible level of adaptive involvement

Many aspects of cellular evolution is talking about how single celled life evolved into complex multi celled life. If thats not a general coverage of evolution then what is. Many aspects of genomic evolution is talking about the whole genome which is a pretty big part of evolution and many aspects of development evolution is talking about the developmental process of all life and comparing it to each other to determine the differences and how they come about.


Genome evolution
Genome evolution is the process by which a genome changes in structure over time, through mutation, horizontal gene transfer, and sexual reproduction. The study of genome evolution involves multiple fields including structural analysis of the genome, genomic parasites, gene and ancient genome duplications, polyploidy, and comparative genomics.
http://www.nature.com/subjects/genome-evolution
Evolution of cells
Evolution of cells refers to the evolutionary origin and subsequent evolutionary development of cells
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_of_cells
What Is Evo Devo?
Evolutionary developmental biology, or "evo devo," is a broad term that encompasses a lot of things.
the fundamental aspect of evo devo is understanding how development is tweaked over evolutionary time.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/evolution/what-evo-devo.html


Notice that it just focuses on complexity and not all of evolution.
Yes its focusing on all Complex life globally, all eukaryotes. I am not sure who needs the lesson in evolution but that is common knowledge. I'm beginning to think you are purposely avoiding this obvious point in the paper. To move from a single celled life to multi celled life is moving into natural selections ability to evolve all complex life. There is nothing simple about eukaryotes and all eukaryotes are complex. The paper is talking about the complex genomic, cellular, and developmental aspects of all complex life. When it says one can only marvel at the inability of natural selection to evolve complex eukaryote life compared to the global success of unicellular species because eukaryote suffer from so many problems and isn't as successful as unicellular life. Even if we say that it is only talking about complex life that is a big section of evolution that natural selection is negligible for.

Besides why didn't you respond to the other papers which obviously show they are talking about all evolution in their headings and introductions. It seems you are avoiding them. This having to prove every word meaning and spell out what the papers say is ridiculous and something you wouldn't do to anyone who supplied support for evolution. This shows that you are biased to begin with as you set a higher criteria for one and not the other.
 
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VirOptimus

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I disagree but it seems we are stuck on meaning here. You are focusing on being very specific and not reading the paper in context by only looking at the natural selection and negligible point. So I will stick with that for a moment. The statemnet says that natural selection is negligible when it comes to many aspects of genomic, cellular, and developmental evolution.

It is impossible to understand evolution purely in terms of natural selection, and many aspects of genomic, cellular, and developmental evolution can only be understood by invoking a negligible level of adaptive involvement

Many aspects of cellular evolution is talking about how single celled life evolved into complex multi celled life. If thats not a general coverage of evolution then what is. Many aspects of genomic evolution is talking about the whole genome which is a pretty big part of evolution and many aspects of development evolution is talking about the developmental process of all life and comparing it to each other to determine the differences and how they come about.


Genome evolution
Genome evolution is the process by which a genome changes in structure over time, through mutation, horizontal gene transfer, and sexual reproduction. The study of genome evolution involves multiple fields including structural analysis of the genome, genomic parasites, gene and ancient genome duplications, polyploidy, and comparative genomics.
http://www.nature.com/subjects/genome-evolution

Evolution of cells
Evolution of cells refers to the evolutionary origin and subsequent evolutionary development of cells
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_of_cells

What Is Evo Devo?
Evolutionary developmental biology, or "evo devo," is a broad term that encompasses a lot of things.
the fundamental aspect of evo devo is understanding how development is tweaked over evolutionary time.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/evolution/what-evo-devo.html


Yes its focusing on all Complex life globally, all eukaryotes. I am not sure who needs the lesson in evolution but that is common knowledge. I'm beginning to think you are purposely avoiding this obvious point in the paper. To move from a single celled life to multi celled life is moving into natural selections ability to evolve all complex life. There is nothing simple about eukaryotes and all eukaryotes are complex. The paper is talking about the complex genomic, cellular, and developmental aspects of all complex life. When it says one can only marvel at the inability of natural selection to evolve complex eukaryote life compared to the global success of unicellular species because eukaryote suffer from so many problems and isn't as successful as unicellular life. Even if we say that it is only talking about complex life that is a big section of evolution that natural selection is negligible for.

Besides why didn't you respond to the other papers which obviously show they are talking about all evolution in their headings and introductions. It seems you are avoiding them. This having to prove every word meaning and spell out what the papers say is ridiculous and something you wouldn't do to anyone who supplied support for evolution. This shows that you are biased to begin with as you set a higher criteria for one and not the other.

Why dont you write to the authors of the paper and ask them?
 
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stevevw

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Why dont you write to the authors of the paper and ask them?
I may do so but why should I have to go to that extent. I dont see others continually contacting the authors of papers to verify what they say. A person can surely understand what the paper states in clear terms. Its not rocket science if you can comprehend English. If it states evolution needs a rethink then that is pretty self explanatory. When someone tries to rationalize that away to try and confuse things by saying no it is really meaning something else then that only questions their integrity. But in the meantime I would like to know what you think. Do you think the papers are referring to evolution generally or just a small section or part of evolution. Do you think as Loudmouth has stated that the papers are only referring to natural selections ability to evolve complexity that this complexity isn't about complex life in general. Or is it only referring to certain complex life.
 
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