Where did Lucifer's "iniquity" come from?

[now faith]

I do understand and I agree that satan deserves absolutely no credence at all.

But....

Psalm 82:6
I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
7 But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.
​

...and Jesus reiterates the fact here...

John 10:34
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, “You are gods”’? 35 If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken),
​

The term "gods," little 'g' (something many in WoF get in trouble for claiming!), simply means judges or rulers.

And again, look at the verse I quoted to you in my last post...scripture is clear about the terms applied to satan. It is not something to like or dislike; it simply is Truth.

So let me get this straight: God says he is the 'god of this world' and you say "Nope, God. That ain't true." I feel the spirit of slap comin' all over me!

Lol. Have you considered ye are gods, as in his or belonging to God? I have heard many a preacher say don't shout me down when I'm preaching good,.." but never don't slap me down!

 

[ABlessedAnomaly]

Lol. Have you considered ye are gods, as in his or belonging to God? I have heard many a preacher say don't shout me down when I'm preaching good,.." but never don't slap me down!

It's an Andrew Wommack-ism. "I felt the spirit of slap comin' all over me!"

BTW, no...."ye are gods" is not a reference to us belonging to God. It is not a deity thing; it is not a child of God thing. It simply means that we are rulers and judges. The word is elohim, and means "gods." When speaking of Jehovah God, it means "God." When speaking of man, it mans magistrates, rulers, judges. Sometimes it refers to angels.

 

[now faith]

namely the Spirit of God and Christ is the one which not only (that) gives life to all living beings i.e. to all souls, but which also holds stably the atoms and molecules and all other constructive elements, if Their Spirit pulls back from the earth, then all this creation will disintegrate together with the life here and all its inhabitants, so that the Heaven and the Earth are one closely interconnected system, as it is shown here:

Revelation 21:1 "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea."

Blessings

You are unaware of the trinity, and the role of the Holy Spirit in the body of Christ. I almost detect a cross between pantheism and Christianity, in your post.If you have a open mind and want to learn the members here are glad to teach. All we ask is that you do not teach your belief, but ask questions and seek knowlage. We teach what is given to us from God,the Holy Bible and nothing out side of it.We encourage you to come to the knowlage of our lord and savior Jesus Christ, and for you to make him the lord of your life. Without Christ there cannot be salvation , only eternal separation from God.

 

[now faith]

It's an Andrew Wommack-ism. "I felt the spirit of slap comin' all over me!"

BTW, no...."ye are gods" is not a reference to us belonging to God. It is not a deity thing; it is not a child of God thing. It simply means that we are rulers and judges. The word is elohim, and means "gods." When speaking of Jehovah God, it means "God." When speaking of man, it mans magistrates, rulers, judges. Sometimes it refers to angels.

Yes this is part of the debate also, the sons of God found the daughters of men fair. It to me is a curiosity , and many have tossed ideas around. From kennoites fathered by hells angles, to the daughters of men being born of Cain ,and the sons of God men from Adam. You may correct me on this but Jehovah was never in the Orginal Hebrew scrolls, it was a replacement name added so that the name given to Moses would not be attempted to be spoken, since it was impossible to pronounce correctly and was considered to holy to utter.

 

[now faith]

I'm gonna get a slap if I ask ,do we get our own planet?

 

[1234321]

We all know where OUR iniquity came from, but there was no satan in Heaven. No sin. Lucifer was made perfect. How is it that iniquity was found in him?

Up until satan showed up, man had no desire to sin. He chose it only after being presented with an alternative to obedience and even then, he was tricked.

Does it have something to do with the fact that angels and men are two entirely different species of creation? If so, how?

But even if that is the case, it seems to me that angels would have had even MORE knowledge of the things of God than man.

How could this happen? How did Lucifer get the idea that he could possibly be ABOVE God? It seems beyond stupid.

If I think about this too long, my head wants to explode.

Then I think, "If this could happen in a perfect Heaven by a perfect creature who knew way more about God than man does and wasn't deceived by anybody/anything else like man was, then what prevents it from happening to us a couple of billion years into eternity?

Are there any books about this?

I think in the spirit things manifest differently than they do on the physical plane of existence. Abstractions in the spirit are just as "tangible" as the physical is in this plane. You are right that angels have an incredible amount of knowledge of God and His creation, but they don't know everything.

Lucifer had one of the highest positions in the Kingdom of God in Heaven. But, then God created man. Instead of considering it a blessing (because God created something new,) perhaps Lucifer perceived us to be a threat to his position. From what I understand, Adam was created like an angel in the beginning: he was angrogynous (male and female,) he was probably "wearing" raiment in the form of shining light (which explains how they "knew" they were naked after sinning - they lost their light,) and he was perfect and spoke directly to the [word of] God like the Angels did. And, the big kicker was that Adam existed as both spirit and physical human, given a planet full of beauty, and later God split his Androgyny into male and female, so that He could intimately know himself. Because of this split, Adam and Eve were able to have children (angels are androgynous so they don't have children...not that they cant.)

Now, the bible says that Lucifer was prideful, so it is safe to assume that all of these things God endowed Adam and Eve with struck a nerve with Lucifer. "Why do they get to have these things? I have been a servant of yours for (so many) million/billion/trillion/quadrillion/etc. of years!" So every time Lucifer watched the progress of Adam and Eve, and the relationship they had with God, he most likely built up a little more rage. Then, when Lucifer found out that it would be a MAN (Christ) and not Lucifer that would sit on the mercy seat at the right hand of God, I assume the pride and confusion grew even more. Now, someone with the knowledge of Lucifer, with intimate council with God, could most certainly believe that he could do similar things as God - create, destroy, establish, etc. However, he knew that God was more powerful than him, and he probably knew that God already knew what he would do next (if he wasn't blinded by pride already.) Angels, because they were with God for so many trillions and quadrillions of years, were not afforded the same luxury of grace and forgiveness as man. Lucifer may have even been aware of where this manifestation of pride and confusion would lead him. So, it is possible he began to reject and hate God for "allowing" him to fall. This may have led to him attacking God through his new children - man. He is no match for God, so he became a satan of man.

Lucifer literally deceived himself into sinning by becomming prideful, confused, jealous, and vengeful. He was tempted by his own feelings to sin, much like he tempted Adam and Eve to sin.

The manifestation of these abstractions were spiritually tangible, as said before. And, it is interesting to notice that satan did to Adam what was innately done to him through his own pride/envy/vengeful ways. The Serpent was the physical vessel, but the words of the serpent represented the spiritual manifestation of satan's temptation. The events are very circular.


I don't think we will do what Lucifer did in billions of years because we are "cutting our teeth" in the arena of sin right now. This is why it is so important to be a "saint" now, because the attitude you have now will only be multiplied in the spirit. Plus, I don't think God would judge us worth to be in the Kingdom (at judgment day,) only to have us fall billions of years later. if we are going to fall in the future, He will be able to judge that.

 

[now faith]

God asked Adam and eve ; who told you thou art naked? I would ask you who told you Adam was both male and female? Where do you find this covering of light on them as well? They ate from the tree of knowlage of good and evil, at that point their minds became carnal and they realized they were naked as if we would also. Their minds before the fall were innocent as babes, ever notice a baby could care less if he is crawling around naked.i don't know where all of these ideas are coming from , but it's not the Bible. It sounds more like Oprah religion to me.

 

[now faith]

To sum it up, before we get any more comments from outer space , Satans fall from heaven was of his own choice free will.

 

[1234321]

God asked Adam and eve ; who told you thou art naked? I would ask you who told you Adam was both male and female? Where do you find this covering of light on them as well? They ate from the tree of knowlage of good and evil, at that point their minds became carnal and they realized they were naked as if we would also. Their minds before the fall were innocent as babes, ever notice a baby could care less if he is crawling around naked.i don't know where all of these ideas are coming from , but it's not the Bible. It sounds more like Oprah religion to me.

But, where does it say Adam's mind was innocent like a baby's mind? This is a colloquial interpretation, and implication of Adam's nature that is not specifically mentioned in the bible. In the same way, one can make an implicit interpretation of Adam as a perfect being having a raiment of light from such verses in the bible as Rev 6:11, Job 11:14-17, Mark 9:2-3, 1 Thess 5:5, Matt 28:3, and countless other verses which specifically speak about Christ's raiment (and other holy saints) being bright light, white as snow. The angels can also appear as beings of light (2 Cor 11:14, Acts 12:7.) Christ, as the new Adam, had a raiment of shining white light. Christ is God, the Adamic image of God in fact (if you have seen Him, you have seen the Father.) Adam was made in the image of God. Therefore, Adam (before the fall) would by implication have this same raiment.

Adam was a man, but he was created in God's image. God is a man, but He is also everything else too (note: I am not saying God is a woman, but He is everything.) The angels are sons of God, but they are androgynous. (Though, here androgyny may be a misnomer; anatomical ken dolls would be a better description.) This is why they do not give in marriage (male role,) or receive in marriage (female role.) Therefore, by implication Adam was androgynous. When he was put into a trance, God took a rib from him, and separated the sexes leaving Adam fully man, and creating Eve the woman from within him. This is implicit, almost conjecture, as it is not explicitly stated in the bible. But, some things we should be able to figure out/think about on our own. We aren't stupid. Adam was made in God's image, so he reflected all of God's attributes.

Adam was charged with naming every single animal, an act that requires adult intelligence, and adult reasoning by implication. The Hebrew words for the animal names describe their function, or attributes. For example, serpent is "nachash" in Hebrew, which means "a hiss." Eagle in Hebrew means "necher," which means "to lacerate" - an attribute of the talons of the eagle. Sheep is "tsone" in Hebrew, which means "migrate," an attribute of the flock. Even if Adam was innocent, it doesn't mean he was stupid, or that he didn't realize he was exposed. There is a difference between someone who is innocent, and infantile innocence.


Combining the logic of the first and third paragraph, it should be easy to see that Adam and Eve had a raiment of light that covered them, and when they sinned it faded, leaving their bodies exposed (naked.) I appreciate the comparison to Oprah religion [/sarcasm], but Oprah believes there are 1000s of ways to God. I believe Christ is the only way. I am not a New-Age believer. And, if you read my whole response, you would see I said satan deceived himself through his own pride into falling from his position in heaven; it was his choice.

 

[ABlessedAnomaly]

Adam was a man, but he was created in God's image. God is a man, but He is also everything else too (note: I am not saying God is a woman, but He is everything.)

If adam (mankind) was made in God's image, and woman was taken from man's side, where do you think female attributes came from?

I'm not saying God is a woman either. Nor am I saying God is a man. But we (mankind; male and female) have been created in the image and likeness of God. Woman was taken from the side of man. And when we get married we are joined so that the two become one: we become more fully the image and likeness of God. This is one reasong why a marriage of male with male or female with female is not allowed: it does not result in the full image and likeness of God.

 

[toLiJC]

Hi toLiJC,

Two things. (1) I think we have a slight language barrier here and we may be defining "eternity" in two different ways; (2) my request of what denomination/church you belong to is important for this discussion. This is a Word/Faith forum for Word/Faith believers. Non-Word/Faith doctrines are not to be taught here. While I appreciate your words and admission that Jesus Christ is Lord and the only Lord of this universe, some concepts of the rest of what you say need to be fleshed out, but on the surface do not seem to be consistent with Word/Faith. As such they can't be expounded on here; although there are other forums on Christian Forums where you could certainly espouse these questions.

I will fully answer your post in my next response/post. As for these two items I'd like say/ask:

a) "eternity" is not the beginning of creation to the end of creation. It is not within the limits of time as we know it. Eternity is endless on both ends, no beginning, no end. It is where God exists and from where God created our worlds and our "time." Thus, if eternity does not end, then it cannot begin again; it cannot be cyclical.

b) could you tell me what church/denomination you belong to? This is important in a congregational forum.

we are not members/followers of any denomination, we believe in God the Father and Lord Jesus Christ only, because why to seek a denomination when there is one God and one Lord in the universe and the faith must be only in Them the Twain (as it is written in the whole Bible)?!, as regards the eternity, we talk about the biblical concept, not about any word/concept from the dictionary of non-believers, because the biblical concept about the eternity is that it is a circle with a beginning and an end, which means that all events/occurrences repeat 1:1 with this difference that the characters/roles of the souls are rotated/changed with one step forward for each rotation of the eternity as it is with the geometric progression and the cellular division viz. 1 --> 2 --> 4 --> 8 --> 16 --> 32 --> 64 --> etc. - so starts each eternity until God reach His mature form, for that reason it is written in the Bible that all things which whosoever causes to anyone of the others, will be caused to it(i.e. to the causer) in a next rotation of the eternity

Matthew 7:12 "Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets."

it is like one and same dvd movie in repeat mode, only the roles are changed, e.g., you will be me, i will be him, he will be her, etc.

we apologize if we violated the order in this forum

Blessings

 

[toLiJC]

We may have a possible language barrier here. Let's make sure we agree: Jesus Christ, although scripture uses the terms "firstborn" with him, was not born in the sense that we are. Jesus always existed and we present at the creation of our worlds. Jesus was not created. Jesus is God. The Father, the Son and the Spirit are One God in three persons, the Father, the son and the Spirit. They are One God above all that there is. The Father, the Son and the Spirit are all Equal and are One God. The persons of the Father, the Son and the Spirit are NOT manifestations of God, but rather they ARE three Persons in One God.



Absolutely not. toLiJC, this is not even basic Christianity. This teaching is heresy and cultic. It is on the same level as Mormanism's man climbing to become a god of his own world and thus "eternity" for that world starts over. Or it is some odd form of reincarnation for God. But God does not partake in reincarnation. God does not have a seed form. God does not have a beginning -- and He certainly does not have many beginnings over and over again. God does not change, thus He does not undergo any sort of reversal. He does not have a mature and seminal form.

What you teach here is herersy.

why "teach"?!, we just testify the Word of God, there is only one Teacher:

Matthew 23:8-10 "be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren. And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ."

and why "heresy" when we testify only the Word of God and Jesus, not anything other?!

Blessings

 

[toLiJC]

You are unaware of the trinity, and the role of the Holy Spirit in the body of Christ. I almost detect a cross between pantheism and Christianity, in your post.If you have a open mind and want to learn the members here are glad to teach. All we ask is that you do not teach your belief, but ask questions and seek knowlage. We teach what is given to us from God,the Holy Bible and nothing out side of it.We encourage you to come to the knowlage of our lord and savior Jesus Christ, and for you to make him the lord of your life. Without Christ there cannot be salvation , only eternal separation from God.

we are not teachers, but just witnesses of God and Jesus, God is the Father, Jesus is the Son/Lord, while the Holy Spirit is just the joint spirit of God and Jesus by which They operate everywhere across the universe i.e. the Holy Spirit is the Hands of God which can be likened with a dove:

the two hands look like the wings of a dove

Blessings

 

[ABlessedAnomaly]

we are not members/followers of any denomination,

Who is "we"? What are you called?

so starts each eternity until God reach His mature form,

Eternity does not have a start nor an end.

God does not "reach His mature form." God is. God does not change.

What you are speaking/teaching/writing here is heresy. This is not Christian belief.

toLiJC, I do not know what type of group you have gotten invovled with, but it is an abomination to the Word of God and the person of God Himself. You need to renounce this aberrant image of God.

Jesus loves you. The Jesus of the Bible...the Jesus who is One with the Father. Jesus is God Himself. There is One God. The Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are One. They are One God; three persons in One God. It is called the Trinity. And God does not change. He does not mature. He does not cycle. He is constant and He is perfect.

Accept the true Jesus and become born again; get out of whatever movement you are in. You can search the internet for men like Joseph Prince www.JosephPrince.org , Andrew Wommack www.awmi.net , Kenneth Copeland www.kcm.org and learn from these ministries.

The theology that you have professed here is heresy. It is not what Christianity professes and preaches.

toLiJC, there are many here who will love you into the kingdom, but you must get out of whatever is teaching you this strange idea of God. Accept the God of the Christian Bible; learn from good teachers. Grow in Christ.

 

[UnionJack]

Lucifer's iniquity came from the fact that God gave all of his creation freewill.

So to answer your question, it came from freewill.

Angels were not made robots to serve God...just like us, they had a choice to choose God or to rebel against God. And the ones who rebelled were thrown out of heaven along with Lucifer.

 

[Tennisplayer]

Lucifer's iniquity came from the fact that God gave all of his creation freewill.

So to answer your question, it came from freewill.

Angels were not made robots to serve God...just like us, they had a choice to choose God or to rebel against God. And the ones who rebelled were thrown out of heaven along with Lucifer.

Exactly what I was thinking!

 

[now faith]

Exactly what I was thinking!

Exactly what I said two times already, but it is easy to become sidetracked.

 

[now faith]

But, where does it say Adam's mind was innocent like a baby's mind? This is a colloquial interpretation, and implication of Adam's nature that is not specifically mentioned in the bible. In the same way, one can make an implicit interpretation of Adam as a perfect being having a raiment of light from such verses in the bible as Rev 6:11, Job 11:14-17, Mark 9:2-3, 1 Thess 5:5, Matt 28:3, and countless other verses which specifically speak about Christ's raiment (and other holy saints) being bright light, white as snow. The angels can also appear as beings of light (2 Cor 11:14, Acts 12:7.) Christ, as the new Adam, had a raiment of shining white light. Christ is God, the Adamic image of God in fact (if you have seen Him, you have seen the Father.) Adam was made in the image of God. Therefore, Adam (before the fall) would by implication have this same raiment.

Adam was a man, but he was created in God's image. God is a man, but He is also everything else too (note: I am not saying God is a woman, but He is everything.) The angels are sons of God, but they are androgynous. (Though, here androgyny may be a misnomer; anatomical ken dolls would be a better description.) This is why they do not give in marriage (male role,) or receive in marriage (female role.) Therefore, by implication Adam was androgynous. When he was put into a trance, God took a rib from him, and separated the sexes leaving Adam fully man, and creating Eve the woman from within him. This is implicit, almost conjecture, as it is not explicitly stated in the bible. But, some things we should be able to figure out/think about on our own. We aren't stupid. Adam was made in God's image, so he reflected all of God's attributes.

Adam was charged with naming every single animal, an act that requires adult intelligence, and adult reasoning by implication. The Hebrew words for the animal names describe their function, or attributes. For example, serpent is "nachash" in Hebrew, which means "a hiss." Eagle in Hebrew means "necher," which means "to lacerate" - an attribute of the talons of the eagle. Sheep is "tsone" in Hebrew, which means "migrate," an attribute of the flock. Even if Adam was innocent, it doesn't mean he was stupid, or that he didn't realize he was exposed. There is a difference between someone who is innocent, and infantile innocence.


Combining the logic of the first and third paragraph, it should be easy to see that Adam and Eve had a raiment of light that covered them, and when they sinned it faded, leaving their bodies exposed (naked.) I appreciate the comparison to Oprah religion [/sarcasm], but Oprah believes there are 1000s of ways to God. I believe Christ is the only way. I am not a New-Age believer. And, if you read my whole response, you would see I said satan deceived himself through his own pride into falling from his position in heaven; it was his choice.

No this is not a colloquialism statement on Adam. Before the fall he had no knowlage of good and evil. The example I used was a simile, in order to point out the complete nonsense being posted. You are splitting hairs on grammar and ignoring the fiction being posted.So you may waste your time on straining on a Nat before you swallow a Camel, but I simply don't have time to respond to every heresy posted.

 

[ABlessedAnomaly]

Exactly what I said two times already, but it is easy to become sidetracked.

Exactly!

 

[ABlessedAnomaly]

Lucifer's iniquity came from the fact that God gave all of his creation freewill.

So to answer your question, it came from freewill.

But I'm feeling frisky tonight....so.....

Lucifer's iniquity technically did not come FROM his freewill. His freewill allowed him to choose sin and rebel. The OP asked where did the INIQUITY come FROM? (Why was there iniquity in Lucifer to begin with? How did it get there?)

Seemingly unconnected thought, but yet.....
(1) I give you a brick; using only the brick can you make a loaf of wheat bread? Is it possible? Why or why not?
(2) I give you two dry sticks. They have no fire within them. Can you rub them together and make fire? Is it possible? Why or why not?
(3) I show you Lucifer in Heaven. Can he sin? Is it possible? Why or why not?