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Where Did Humans Come From?

returnn23

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I believe Adam and Eve were the first man and first woman. I also believe Eve was created by God as described in Genesis. However, there are those who have the mistaken belief that there were primitive men that came before Adam, like Neanderthals, that interbred with so-called "modern" humans. I contend Neanderthals were not primitive men but true men who buried their dead, produced artifacts and made cave art.

https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1316780110
 
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The Barbarian

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As you know, the Vatican's Theological Commission has found that the evolution of anatomically modern humans from from a common ancestor of all living things is "virtually certain."


INTERNATIONAL THEOLOGICAL COMMISSION


COMMUNION AND STEWARDSHIP:

Human Persons Created in the Image of God*

Since it has been demonstrated that all living organisms on earth are genetically related, it is virtually certain that all living organisms have descended from this first organism. Converging evidence from many studies in the physical and biological sciences furnishes mounting support for some theory of evolution to account for the development and diversification of life on earth, while controversy continues over the pace and mechanisms of evolution. While the story of human origins is complex and subject to revision, physical anthropology and molecular biology combine to make a convincing case for the origin of the human species in Africa about 150,000 years ago in a humanoid population of common genetic lineage. However it is to be explained, the decisive factor in human origins was a continually increasing brain size, culminating in that of homo sapiens. With the development of the human brain, the nature and rate of evolution were permanently altered: with the introduction of the uniquely human factors of consciousness, intentionality, freedom and creativity, biological evolution was recast as social and cultural evolution.

Communion and Stewardship: Human Persons Created in the Image of God
(my emphasis)

So that's consistent with the evidence, but not with creationism.
 
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returnn23

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Your understanding of Catholic Church teaching appears limited. From Communion and Stewardship:

"While the story of human origins is complex and subject to revision, physical anthropology and molecular biology combine to make a convincing case for the origin of the human species in Africa about 150,000 years ago in a humanoid population of common genetic lineage. However it is to be explained, the decisive factor in human origins was a continually increasing brain size, culminating in that of homo sapiens. With the development of the human brain, the nature and rate of evolution were permanently altered: with the introduction of the uniquely human factors of consciousness, intentionality, freedom and creativity, biological evolution was recast as social and cultural evolution."

This document uses precise terminology that is sometimes lacking in discussions like this. That quote is not set in stone and the writers add "subject to revision." Although a reference is made to science, it does not say "evolution" as described in Biology textbooks was responsible but God. This is a lengthy document that makes other statements that further clarifies this.

"64. Pope John Paul II stated some years ago that “new knowledge leads to the recognition of the theory of evolution as more than a hypothesis. It is indeed remarkable that this theory has been progressively accepted by researchers following a series of discoveries in various fields of knowledge”(“Message to the Pontifical Academy of Sciences on Evolution”1996). In continuity with previous twentieth century papal teaching on evolution (especially Pope Pius XII’s encyclical Humani Generis ), the Holy Father’s message acknowledges that there are “several theories of evolution” that are “materialist, reductionist and spiritualist” and thus incompatible with the Catholic faith. It follows that the message of Pope John Paul II cannot be read as a blanket approbation of all theories of evolution, including those of a neo-Darwinian provenance which explicitly deny to divine providence any truly causal role in the development of life in the universe. Mainly concerned with evolution as it “involves the question of man,” however, Pope John Paul’s message is specifically critical of materialistic theories of human origins and insists on the relevance of philosophy and theology for an adequate understanding of the “ontological leap” to the human which cannot be explained in purely scientific terms. The Church’s interest in evolution thus focuses particularly on “the conception of man” who, as created in the image of God, “cannot be subordinated as a pure means or instrument either to the species or to society.” As a person created in the image of God, he is capable of forming relationships of communion with other persons and with the triune God, as well as of exercising sovereignty and stewardship in the created universe. The implication of these remarks is that theories of evolution and of the origin of the universe possess particular theological interest when they touch on the doctrines of the creation ex nihilo and the creation of man in the image of God."

I cannot emphasize this enough. "Pope John Paul’s message is specifically critical of materialistic theories of human origins and insists on the relevance of philosophy and theology for an adequate understanding of the “ontological leap” to the human which cannot be explained in purely scientific terms."
 
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The Barbarian

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This document uses precise terminology that is sometimes lacking in discussions like this. That quote is not set in stone and the writers add "subject to revision."

The article was not cited as being subject to revision. Let's take a look...
Since it has been demonstrated that all living organisms on earth are genetically related, it is virtually certain that all living organisms have descended from this first organism.

So what is subject to revision?


While the story of human origins is complex and subject to revision, physical anthropology and molecular biology combine to make a convincing case for the origin of the human species in Africa about 150,000 years ago in a humanoid population of common genetic lineage. However it is to be explained, the decisive factor in human origins was a continually increasing brain size, culminating in that of homo sapiens.

That is the teaching of the Church. The details are still subject to revision, but the data showing the evolution of humans is "convincing" and common descent of all living things is "virtually certain" according to the Church.
 
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The Barbarian

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the Holy Father’s message acknowledges that there are “several theories of evolution” that are “materialist, reductionist and spiritualist” and thus incompatible with the Catholic faith. It follows that the message of Pope John Paul II cannot be read as a blanket approbation of all theories of evolution, including those of a neo-Darwinian provenance which explicitly deny to divine providence any truly causal role in the development of life in the universe.

As you learned, neither Darwinian theory nor any other scientific theory of evolution does this. Remember why? Because such a finding is beyond the reach of science. And as I showed you, the Church teaches that God can use either contingency or necessity to effect divine providence.
 
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returnn23

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That's not accurate. You appear to want to see something that's not there. What the Church teaches combines science and theology. Kids being taught from the Biology textbook can get the idea that nothing made them. This is not true. From Communion and Stewardship:

"Any evolutionary mechanism that is contingent can only be contingent because God made it so. An unguided evolutionary process – one that falls outside the bounds of divine providence – simply cannot exist because “the causality of God, Who is the first agent, extends to all being, not only as to constituent principles of species, but also as to the individualizing principles....It necessarily follows that all things, inasmuch as they participate in existence, must likewise be subject to divine providence” (Summa theologiae I, 22, 2).'
 
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The Barbarian

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That's not accurate.

It's exactly what was written.
Since it has been demonstrated that all living organisms on earth are genetically related, it is virtually certain that all living organisms have descended from this first organism.
...
While the story of human origins is complex and subject to revision, physical anthropology and molecular biology combine to make a convincing case for the origin of the human species in Africa about 150,000 years ago in a humanoid population of common genetic lineage. However it is to be explained, the decisive factor in human origins was a continually increasing brain size, culminating in that of homo sapiens.

That is what the Church teaches.
You want to see something that's not there.

Kids being taught from the Biology textbook can get the idea that nothing made them.

It's not what the biology textbooks say, so we only have your unsupported assumption.

As you see, nothing in biology says that God can't create in this manner. You want science to do for you what faith must do. If your faith won't do it, science can't help you.
 
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FaithT

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Very true. The issue is that creationists don't approve of the way He did it.



You've wandered a bit. Is it your argument that if Adam and Eve's ancestors evolved from other species, they couldn't disobey God? You do realize that evolution does not mean that Adam and Eve could not be two real people, right?

This is why the Church says that human descent from other species is "virtually certain", without contradiction of other doctrines.
Where does it say that?
 
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returnn23

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Let me put it this way.

Biology textbook. What does it tell people about how human beings got here? Does it mention God? It does not.

If someone is non-Christian, especially non-Catholic, where do they think human beings come from?
 
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The Barbarian

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Where does it say that?
Since it has been demonstrated that all living organisms on earth are genetically related, it is virtually certain that all living organisms have descended from this first organism. Converging evidence from many studies in the physical and biological sciences furnishes mounting support for some theory of evolution to account for the development and diversification of life on earth, while controversy continues over the pace and mechanisms of evolution. While the story of human origins is complex and subject to revision, physical anthropology and molecular biology combine to make a convincing case for the origin of the human species in Africa about 150,000 years ago in a humanoid population of common genetic lineage. However it is to be explained, the decisive factor in human origins was a continually increasing brain size, culminating in that of homo sapiens. With the development of the human brain, the nature and rate of evolution were permanently altered: with the introduction of the uniquely human factors of consciousness, intentionality, freedom and creativity, biological evolution was recast as social and cultural evolution.
Communion and Stewardship: Human Persons Created in the Image of God

See section 63.
 
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The Barbarian

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Let me put it this way.

Biology textbook. What does it tell people about how human beings got here?

It says we evolved from other organisms. So does the Catholic Church, as you now see.

Does it mention God?

Can't. Science can only speak to the physical universe. If your faith isn't sufficient, science can't help you. You might as well ask if plumbing is concerned with God. Plumbing can't do that any more than science can.

Fortunately, scientists and plumbers can do it. If this puzzles you, maybe you should re-read some of the things I've shown you.

If someone is non-Christian, especially non-Catholic, where do they think human beings come from?

If they know something about biology, they know humans evolved from other primates. Of course, if they are Christians, especially if they are Catholic, they know that our souls are given immediately by God. Would you like me to show you that?
 
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FaithT

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Since it has been demonstrated that all living organisms on earth are genetically related, it is virtually certain that all living organisms have descended from this first organism. Converging evidence from many studies in the physical and biological sciences furnishes mounting support for some theory of evolution to account for the development and diversification of life on earth, while controversy continues over the pace and mechanisms of evolution. While the story of human origins is complex and subject to revision, physical anthropology and molecular biology combine to make a convincing case for the origin of the human species in Africa about 150,000 years ago in a humanoid population of common genetic lineage. However it is to be explained, the decisive factor in human origins was a continually increasing brain size, culminating in that of homo sapiens. With the development of the human brain, the nature and rate of evolution were permanently altered: with the introduction of the uniquely human factors of consciousness, intentionality, freedom and creativity, biological evolution was recast as social and cultural evolution.
Communion and Stewardship: Human Persons Created in the Image of God

See section 63.
Oh ok, I pretty much agree. I haven’t been following this thread closely.I thought you were talking about RCC teaching.
 
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FaithT

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It says we evolved from other organisms. So does the Catholic Church, as you now see.



Can't. Science can only speak to the physical universe. If your faith isn't sufficient, science can't help you. You might as well ask if plumbing is concerned with God. Plumbing can't do that any more than science can.

Fortunately, scientists and plumbers can do it. If this puzzles you, maybe you should re-read some of the things I've shown you.



If they know something about biology, they know humans evolved from other primates. Of course, if they are Christians, especially if they are Catholic, they know that our souls are given immediately by God. Would you like me to show you that?
What about the CCs teaching against polygenism?
 
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The Barbarian

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Oh ok, I pretty much agree. I haven’t been following this thread closely.I thought you were talking about RCC teaching.

That is RCC teaching. Communion and Stewardship was prepared by the Vatican's International Theological Commission, headed by Cardinal Ratzinger, later Pope Benedict XIV.
 
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The Barbarian

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What about the CCs teaching against polygenism?

Evolutionary theory doesn't predict polygenism. It's quite possible for a population to be the result of just 2 individuals. You may have noted here that one of the most outspoken advocates of polygenism (Agassiz) strongly opposed Darwin's theory.
 
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returnn23

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You ignore the damage the Biology textbook has done to some Christians. As presented in Biology textbooks, evolution does not require God in order to work. Do you understand? That has led a few Christians to conclude that their Sunday school teachers lied and then they abandon their faith.
 
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The Barbarian

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You ignore the damage the Biology textbook has done to some Christians.

Kind of like physics texbooks or geology textbooks, or plumbing manuals? They don't mention God, either. As I said, if one's faith is insufficient, science can't help. That's not what it's for.

As presented in Biology textbooks, evolution does not require God in order to work.

As presented in physics textbooks, gravity doesn't require God in order to work, meteorology textbooks don't invoke God to make the hydrologic cycle work. And plumbing manuals don't require God to remove clogs. Do you understand that's not what they're for?

That has led a few Christians to conclude that their Sunday school teachers lied and then they abandon their faith.

Actually, I've seen a lot of young Christians (including some Catholics) who were falsely indoctrinated into the belief that God is incompatible with evolution. And when they learned that evolution is directly observed, some of them have had crises of faith. This is the real damage that YE creationism does. Creationism will have much to account for at Judgement.

"By 1986, the growing doubts about the ability of the widely accepted creationist viewpoints to explain the geologic data led to a nearly 10 year withdrawal from publication. My last young-earth paper was entitled Geologic Challenges to a Young-earth, which I presented as the first paper in the First International Conference on Creationism.
...
But eventually, by 1994 I was through with young-earth creationISM. Nothing that young-earth creationists had taught me about geology turned out to be true. I took a poll of my ICR graduate friends who have worked in the oil industry. I asked them one question.

"From your oil industry experience, did any fact that you were taught at ICR, which challenged current geological thinking, turn out in the long run to be true? ,"

That is a very simple question. One man, Steve Robertson, who worked for Shell grew real silent on the phone, sighed and softly said 'No!' A very close friend that I had hired at Arco, after hearing the question, exclaimed, "Wait a minute. There has to be one!" But he could not name one. I can not name one. No one else could either. One man I could not reach, to ask that question, had a crisis of faith about two years after coming into the oil industry. I do not know what his spiritual state is now but he was in bad shape the last time I talked to him.

And being through with creationism, I very nearly became through with Christianity. I was on the very verge of becoming an atheist."

Glenn Morton
Old Earth Creation Science Testimony - Why I Left Young Earth Creationism, by Glenn Morton

Morton was one of the lucky ones. Many were driven from the faith because they were taught that YE creastionism was an essential Christian doctrine.
 
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