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Grace turns the wicked into believers. We see no grace in their lives until then.
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Grace turns the wicked into believers. We see no grace in their lives until then.Allowing the wicked to live and prosper seems awfully gracious to me. Especially since they are being wooed by The Spirit so fervently. I'm thinking of at least 1/2 dozen Bible verses to support this.
Since the wages of sin is death, shouldn't sinners die as soon as they have their first sinful thought, but for grace. Grace at every breath seems patently reasonable to me.
Isn't teaching that God hates the wicked a somewhat selective, uber-literalism interpretation of Scripture. I'm fairly certain that for every single verse which intimates that God "hates" the wicked, there are quite a few that suggest the opposite.It's not. God hates the wicked but uses them to nurture the elect. Greed drives business but the elect work for the greedy untainted etc.
Correct like judas for example.So if someone is following Christ and then walks away, would you say that they were never saved or "appointed for salvation" in the first place?
The Spirit does draw people to God, but he doesn't force them to stay there.
God has chosen to given us the ability to choose. If he can choose, we are made in his image so it follows that we are able to choose also.
“The LORD trieth the righteous: But the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.” Psalm 11:5 (KJV 1900)Isn't teaching that God hates the wicked a somewhat selective, uber-literalism interpretation of Scripture. I'm fairly certain that for every single verse which intimates that God "hates" the wicked, there are quite a few that suggest the opposite.
Are we talking about the same word here—the one usually defined as "unmerited favor?"Grace turns the wicked into believers. We see no grace in their lives until then.
You think Judas was once converted?Correct like judas for example.
Yep.With regards to faith being a work, it seems pretty clear that the Bible always CONTRASTS faith and works when it comes to justification. After all, salvation is by faith. Rom 4:5 is a good example for clarity.
"And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness".
Yep. Completely agree, but 1) that's an argument from silence and 2) it fails to address the point made: the fact that 3) both scripturally and logically faith is accompanied by works manifestly testifying to the existence of that faith.There's no qualifications that say faith is a work, well, anywhere.
Yes, and I addressed that point and have yet to receive a cogent response.The only time faith comes close to being a work is John 6:29, as already mentioned, where it seems God does the work, and James 2 where faith is said to be proved by works. (Works complement faith, but in terms of justification, they contrast.) But not even James 2 classifies faith as a work.
Nowhere in scripture does it say that Judas was saved or possessed eternal life. In fact it declares just the opposite. The bible teaches that Judas was the son of perdition from the beginning. He was created for the very purpose and role as the traitor who would betray Jesus. Jesus said of Judas it would of been better off for him to not even been born than to betray the Son of Man.You think Judas was once converted?
Yes, and the salient point it there is no faith recognized as soteriological efficacious that is absent works. You've been arguing for a distinction between faith and work and thereby implicitly arguing for "faith begets works."BEGETS works is not the same as actually being a work.
The snotty comments about the posters observably continues. Noted as such and ignored accordingly.So says you.
You have in fact treated scripture eisegetically. All you have shown is that you can make scripture say faith precedes salvation. Every verse used was about people who already believed in God; verses that have no bearing on the modern atheist's conversion. The concerns of this op, now summarized in the five or six points in Post#469, have not been addressed and resolved.I haven't used any of these things. I've shown clear scripture that proves belief precedes salvation.
And attempting to drag you off your op.It doesn't say that. You are moving the goalposts.
Do you really think I've never read that verse? We could have a match of proof texting and consulting of the original languages, but the Bible was written for the common man which is why, I believe, that this problem is solved by the preponderance of Biblical evidence, however "contradictory" or paradoxical it may appear. "God is love." He is not merely the Source of all love; His very essence is synonymous with it (I say, as I virtually remove my shoes before the Holy ground upon which I now tread). He does not indulge malice. He administers vengeance and indignation with self-control/temperance (naturally). He acknowledges those who hate Him as His enemies. But never does he stoop to the cheapened, modern definition of the word "hate."“The LORD trieth the righteous: But the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.” Psalm 11:5 (KJV 1900)
“What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:” Romans 9:22 (KJV 1900)Do you really think I've never read that verse? We could have a match of proof texting and consulting of the original languages, but the Bible was written for the common man which is why, I believe, that this problem is solved by the preponderance of Biblical evidence, however "contradictory" or paradoxical it may appear. "God is love." He is not merely the Source of all love; His very essence is synonymous with it (I say, as I virtually remove my shoes before the Holy ground upon which I now tread). He does not indulge malice. He administers vengeance and indignation with self-control/temperance (naturally). He acknowledges those who hate Him as His enemies. But never does he stoop to the cheapened, modern definition of the word "hate."
Do you have an example?Often it is condemning them... but Paul is specifically calling out the good that an unsaved person does and why; "When Gentiles who do not have the law do instinctively the things of the law..."
Not helpful at all. I can't believe the way the character of God is maligned in some of these discussions.He was created for the very purpose and role as the traitor who would betray Jesus.
Are we really going to do this? Are you actually suggesting that anger and malice are one and the same?“What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:” Romans 9:22 (KJV 1900)
What does Paul say?Are we really going to do this? Are you actually suggesting that anger and malice are one and the same?
Lots of really great stuff, as do other Bible writers but I have noticed that the baton always gets passed to the Great Apostle when the theological debate-going gets tough. And the warning from another apostle about misunderstanding the work of his pen is not lost on me, I assure you.What does Paul say?
But God withholds it from most. Many avenues to explore in proving it, but he certainly withholds grace from most.Lots of really great stuff, as do other Bible writers but I have noticed that the baton always gets passed to the Great Apostle when the theological debate-going gets tough. And the warning from another apostle about misunderstanding the work of his pen is not lost on me, I assure you.
Grace (very expensive—not cheap) is to me largely a matter of religious liberty—a hill upon which I am well-prepared to die.
You may fire when ready, Sir.
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