Where are we now in the book of Revelation?

[10s3r]

Only the historicist view, that the Revelation began unfolding soon after John wrote it as he said it would, is the sensible interpretation.

The part about George and the U.S???

 

[shturt678s]

The part about George and the U.S???

The "42 months," Rev.11:2 began at 70 A.D. in light of Lk.21:24 ending at the future, ie, right around the corner, "1" Parousia, ie, the end.

We are on the brink of Satan's personal loosing at Rev.20:7.

Old Jack's view.

 

[iamlamad]

The seals are the opening events that disclose where we are in prophecy. They are not something that opened centuries ago or in a continual state of fulfillment.

John isn't teaching a history lesson in the seals like you would assert. That's anti-productive to prophecy, and makes John a false prophet whether you like it or not.

If you believe John prophesied about the first seal when it already had passed, then maybe you should go and study just what A TRUE PROPHET OF GOD really is.

PEOPLE DON'T CARE ABOUT HAVING A RELIABLE AND SENSIBLE HERMENEUTIC BECAUSE IT OFTEN DEBUNKS WHAT THEY BELIEVE.

Christians typically have an awful understanding of prophets and apostles. And Christians typically don't care if what they believe is totally contradictory as long as they don't have to admit being wrong or making a mitsake.

Basically, you don't care that your method of interpretation is so bad that it debunks John the Revelator as a true Prophet of God.

That's alright! The experts can't get such simple things right either!

You can believe what you want. I spent MONTHS with the Holy Spirit in chapters 4 and 5. During this time, God spoke to me several times. I heard His voice and His words. First I got stuck on John weeping much. I kept bugging God on why we needed to know WHY John wept and why it was "much." Finally God spoke and said, "it shows timing." I struggled with that for days, trying to find out how John weeping showed any kind of timing. I kept bugging God and again He answered and said, "It also shows the movement of time."

Again I struggled, trying to find any kind of movement of time. I just could not see it. Finally God had mercy on me and said, "I will ask three questions about this part of the vision. Until you can answer these questions correctly you will never understand this part of the vision."

This is where you are: you cannot understand. Here are His questions.

1) Why was I not seen at the right hand of the Father the moment John saw into the throne room? There are many verses telling us that is where I went to be. Stephen saw me there.

2) Why was "no man found" in the first search John watched for one worthy to break the seals that ended in failure - the reason John wept? If you read ahead you will see I was found worthy.

3) Why was the Holy Spirit still in the throne room in chapter 4, when I said as soon as I ascended I would send Him down? John saw this vision long after I rose from the dead.

I could not answer any of these questions. I tried. I spent hours a day meditation, thinking, studing, trying to find the answer. And of course I kept bugging God for help. Finally one He spoke and said, "Go and study chapter 12." It was there in Chapter 12 I found the key to answer all three of these questions.

So, 10s3r, I will say what God said: if you cannot answer these three questions correctly, you will never understand this part of John's vision. I will go one step further: if you cannot answer these three questions correctly, you will never understand the author's intent of the first seals.

Just so you know, my "method" of interpretation is to ask the Author. It is the best way. You are only using human reasoning, which has left you thinking you know, when in fact, you don't - as to the real intent of the Author.

10s3r, you cannot pull verses from their context and even HOPE to get the right meaning. The CONTEXT of the first seal is in chapter 5. John saw the very moment Jesus ascended into the throne room. You can try to ignore this, but as long as you do, you will be confused and not even know it. John is setting the TIMING of the first seals. Believe it or not.

Just so you will forever know the truth, the first seal is the CHURCH sent out to make disciples of all nations. This rider rides alone. The next three rides together for Satan, trying to stop the advance of the church. They were LIMITED in their theater of operation to one fourth of the earth. This war has been ongoing for centuries. Of course they FAILED. The church advanced PAST that 1/4 and is now around the world.

You are even confused about what makes a true prophet of God.

LAMAD

 

[Old Timer]

So much for the things which shall be being just that..

 

[iamlamad]

So much for the things which shall be being just that..

Do you agree that this about the Dragon is history?

Rev 12:
4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

LAMAD

 

[Old Timer]

Do you agree that this about the Dragon is history?

Rev 12:
4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

LAMAD

I already I told you that I don't and gave you three reasons why..

1. The book says that's these are the things which shall be hereafter.

2. The Day of the Lord shall come as travail upon a woman with child..

3. Michael standing up for Daniel's people in the time of the end.

The context here is the woman with child and her being protected in the wilderness when the Dragon (currently the prince and power of the air) is cast down to the earth.

 

[Old Timer]

Revelation 4-20 imo is a miraculous description of that Day..

The Day of the LORD, the Day of Jesus Christ..

That's what the next big (staggering) thing which shall be hereafter is..

The Day of the LORD..

 

[Old Timer]

To me it doesn't make a lot of sense to make this about when Christ was born.. even though that is what I often believed in the past.

What is the point of John writing about Christ being born and then caught up with respect to that time.. when Israel REJECTED Christ and was then left desolate while the gospel went out to the GENTILES and Israel remained blind in part..

See what I mean?

It's a major context disconnect imo..

The actual context here is Israel being delivered for that time, times, and a half time when the Dragon is literally cast down to the earth.

 

[Old Timer]

Micah 5 blew me away the other day...

Now gather thyself in troops, O daughter of troops:
he hath laid siege against us:
they shall smite the judge of Israel with a rod upon the cheek.

But thou, Beth-lehem Ephratah,
though thou be little among the thousands of Judah,
yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel;
whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.

Therefore will he give them up,
until the time that she which travaileth hath brought forth:
then the remnant of his brethren shall return unto the children of Israel.

 

[TPeterY]

WHY did John break between the 6th and 7th seal for the chapter 7 parenthesis? For what reason? I asked God about this.

Consider a play with several acts. Between acts, they close the curtain. Why? What happens behind the curtain? They REARRANGING the set to fit the next act.

The truth is, John cannot get to the 7th seal, the next "act" as in a play, until two things are accomplished: the 144,000 absolutely must be sealed for their protection, and the church absolutely must be in heaven, their place of safety. Why? Because the 7th seal is the official notice in heaven that the wrath of God is about to begin on earth, and God has promised to SAVE US from His wrath. He set no appointment for us with His wrath; rather, we have an appointment before His throne.

So the purpose of the chapter 7 parenthesis is to rearrange the setting. Before the wrath of God comes, the church MUST BE IN HEAVEN.

John does the same thing, for the same reason, between the 6th and 7th trumpets.

LAMAD

Isn't that what I'm saying?

 

[TPeterY]

It is worse yet; they have to fit wars, rumors of wars, pestilences and earthquakes in various places into the same 3 1/2 years. Most wars take longer than that!

Correct.

The truth is, the 7th seal BEGINS the 70th week, or "marks*" the very start of the week. *I got the word "mark" from God. He sent me to find the exact midpoint, "clearly marked" in the book of Revelation. I heard His voice and His words. He also said, "In fact, you could find the entire 70th week 'clearly marked.'"

The week is "marked" by 7's: the 7th seal begins the week, the 7th trumpet marks the midpoint and the 7th vial ends it.

One MUST come to understand chapters 4 & 5 the way God understands them. He gave me three questions I could not at first answer.

1) Why was I not immediately seen at the right hand of the Father by John in the throne room? This vision was given to John LONG after I rose from the dead, and there are many verses saying that I went to be at the right hand of the Father, and Stephen saw me there.

2) Why was "no man found" in the search for one worthy to break the seals - that John watched end in failure? If you read ahead you see that I was found. So why was I not found in the FIRST search?

3) Why was the Holy Spirit still in the throne room in chapter 4? I said as soon as I ascend to heaven, I would send Him down.

I could not answer any of these questions. It seems I was blinded by preconceptions. I struggled with them. Finally, God said, "go and study chapter 12." There I found the key I was missing! In talking about the first 5 verses of chapter 12, Jesus said two words that became the key: "history lesson." I was looking at chapters 4 & 5 as future, while Jesus had John write them as history. Don't believe me and what Jesus said to me? Go and read that John saw the very instant Jesus ascended into the throne room and the Holy Spirit instantly sent down. This would have been moments after He told Mary, "don't touch me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father."

This passage of the throne room is the CONTEXT for the first seals - yet people try to figure out the seals OUT OF CONTEXT.

LAMAD

Whatcha talkin bout Willis?!

LOL, speak bible. I have no idea what this lingo means.

 

[TPeterY]

Many people don't see the "history lessons" (things that were history to John when he wrote) mixed in with future events. However, they are there. Chapter 12:1-5 is a parenthetical history lesson about the birth of Christ.

If people think this is a hereafter passage, they will remain confused.

LAMAD

You are too smart for that. Go back and look. Does John promise that he will write ONLY of things in the future? Check out chapter 1, where he is told to write of the past, present and future.

Back to chapter 12:1-5. Did you really think that was about the church? Surely not!

I heard it from the Master Himself. He gave me a synopsis of chapter 12. I heard His voice and His words. "Chapter 12 is Me introducing John to the dragon, and in particular what the dragon will be doing in the last half of the week. However, I chose to show John what the dragon did when I was born. Those first five verses were a history lesson for John. Count how many times the dragon is mentioned, including pronouns."

There you have it: the first five verses are about the birth of Christ. They are certainly history and were history to John when He wrote them. A couple made the mistake using the word was but you can check the original greek to confirm it's all about the future and never the past.

LAMAD

This is incorrect. It's not history. It's not about the birth of Jesus, it's about the 2nd Coming of Jesus. It's not biblical and a false doctrine to twist the meaning of the bible to fit what you believe. Look at the verse from several translations. It's all future tense and nothing historic about it.


Revelation 12:5
New International Version (NIV)
She gave birth to a son, a male child, who “will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.”[a] And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne.

Revelation 12:5
American Standard Version (ASV)
And she was delivered of a son, a man child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and unto his throne.

Revelation 12:5
New Century Version (NCV)
Then the woman gave birth to a son who will rule all the nations with an iron rod. And her child was taken up to God and to his throne.

Revelation 12:5
English Standard Version (ESV)
She gave birth to a male child, one who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron, but her child was caught up to God and to his throne,

Revelation 12:5
Amplified Bible (AMP)
And she brought forth a male Child, One Who is destined to shepherd (rule) all the nations with an iron staff (scepter), and her Child was caught up to God and to His throne.

Here's 2 Greek confirmation of Rev 12 is indeed a future event:

http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/rev12.pdf

Greek and Hebrew Reader's Edition | BibleWebApp.com
_________________________________

"The Woman, Child and the Dragon"

The Woman is "not" Mary, therefore it's not about the past. Mary is always referred as the Virgin, never the Woman. So this is not about the birth of Jesus, it's about the 2nd Coming of Jesus. The Woman is Israel, but to be precise, it's the 144,000 FirstFruits - which is still in the future.

The Child is Jesus' 2nd Coming, not the 1st coming. Jesus "never" came to earth with a rod of iron and never ruled all the kingdoms of the earth 2000 years ago. That's still in the future in His 2nd Coming. (This is so easy to see, how can people misinterpret something so obvious and think it's history?).

The Dragon is the antichrist. Nowhere in history did satan or a dragon ever attacked Mary. Another debunk to the myth of Rev 12 being history. In chapter 12, satan the dragon gets kicked out of Heaven and cast upon the earth (3rd Woe). Satan can't touch us without becoming flesh, he becomes satan the antichrist upon earth. He gives his power and authority to the person who will become the antichrist.

Last time satan became flesh was in the Garden of Eden as a snake. The reason is because of Ephesian 6:12. Satan is in the Supernatural realm, not in our realm.

Ephesians 6:12 (NKJV)
For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age,[a] against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places

"All of Revelation 12 is described in a metaphor type explanation" That's the truth and there's absolutely no history about it once you understand it.

________________________________

Revelation 12:1-2 (NKJV)
The Woman, the Child, and the Dragon

1) Now a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a garland of twelve stars. 2) Then being with child, she cried out in labor and in pain to give birth.

The 12 Stars are the 12 Tribes of the 144,000.

"She cried out in labor and in pain to give birth" is metaphor of the 144,000 fleeing and trying to survive their annihilation from the antichrist during the 2nd half of the tribulation. It's because of them, Jesus' 2nd Coming happens at that time to rescue them. They give birth to Jesus who will rule with a rod of iron.

Jesus isn't specifically returning at that time to save all of Israel, it's mainly for His FirstFruit on Earth. Unfortunately, if you do the math from the bible's description, you'll see roughly 8 million Jews will perish and less than 300,000 will survive till the 2nd Coming.

First thing He does as described in Mark 13:27 is He'll gather all His FirstFruits in Heaven (The Church) and on Earth (144,000) together to be with Him upon His return. And the 144,000 will meet Him at Mount Zion.

Mark 13:27 (NKJV)
And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven.

Revelation 14:1 (NKJV)
The Lamb and the 144,000
Then I looked, and behold, a Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His Father’s name written on their foreheads.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Cu0LkglQgw

Who are the 144,000? - Rev. Charles Cooper

The Woman Clothed With the Sun - The ministry of the 144,000 during Great Tribulation

The 144,000 of the Tribulation, who are the 144,000 witnesses, the tribulation

________________________________________

Lastly, Revelation is not in perfect chronological order. There "IS" a reason why, but telling others that it's perfect will mislead those new to reading Revelation who won't understand.

Overall, there is no history lessons in Revelation. You just haven't figured out some of the events and how they tied into one another, but instead decided to accepted a wild idea to fit them into your eschatology.

Sorry Lamad, but that's what's happening.

 

[Interplanner]

TPeter,
your Joel 2 tagline is about Pentecost and the undermining of Judaism

 

[iamlamad]

I already I told you that I don't and gave you three reasons why..

1. The book says that's these are the things which shall be hereafter.

2. The Day of the Lord shall come as travail upon a woman with child..

3. Michael standing up for Daniel's people in the time of the end.

The context here is the woman with child and her being protected in the wilderness when the Dragon (currently the prince and power of the air) is cast down to the earth.

1. The book DOES NOT say ONLY things which shall be hereafter. But you are reading it as if it does.

2. While people are saying, "Peace and safety," destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.

KJV: For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.


Your timing is 3 1/2 years off. Paul is talking about the RAPTURE event, not some event at the midpoint. Do you not yet understand Paul here? Let me summarize and see if you can agree:

Paul tells us there will come a SUDDEN EVENT at a time when people are saying (and living) peace and safety. This SUDDEN event will be the rapture of the church. At this sudden event, the rapture, two different groups of people get two different results: those living in the Light (born again) get "salvation" [rapture] and get to "live together with Him [rapture.]

Those living in darkness (not born again) will get SUDDEN DESTRUCTION. WHAT is this sudden destruction? It will be the worldwide earthquake caused by the dead in Christ rising, as seen at the first event of the 6th seal. Remember Matt. 27: "the earth did quake...and the graves were opened." The rising of the elders of the Old Covenant - men dead thousands of years - caused a great earthquake. (Also notice a great earthquake when the two witnesses are risen.) If you consider, the atoms and respective Quarks that make up the atoms of Adam at this time may have been scattered over a GREAT area: the flood took place after Adam was gone. But when those elders rose, their bodies were formed INSTANTLY. Whether on an atomic level or Quark level, those elements had to move a GREAT DISTANCE instantly. It caused an earthquake. Imagine, some of the atoms from Adam's body could have ended up a mile deep. Some could have traveled miles in any direction. Make no mistake: when the dead in Christ rise, it will cause a worldwide earthquake! The dead in Christ are around the world.

What does Satan falling and taking 1/3 of the angels with him have to do with Michael or Michael with them?

Did you FORGET the dream that Joseph had about the sun, the moon and the stars? They were to represent ISRAEL. WHEN was Israel "pregnant" and about to give birth to one who would "rule the earth with a rod of iron?" Of course this is speaking of the Messiah. What did King Herod do? He killed all the children under 2 living in Bethlehem, but it was the DRAGON who inspired him to do this. The VERY SAME dragon who fell long before Adam was created, and caused 1/3 of the angels to follow him.

Did you not notice the great difference in this battle and the battle we see in the latter verses, after verse 6? There is no mention of 1/3. John starts verse 7 with THEN......then when? At the exact midpoint of the week, when the woman, those living in Judea see the abomination and begin to flee. THAT Is when.

Did you ever consider what great event must have triggered Michael going after Satan at that moment in time? WHY THEN? What was the trigger? Please allow me to submit a reason: some of the ancient men, the sages of Israel, wrote that man would have the earth for 6000 years, but the 7th thousand would be GOD on the earth ruling. I submit that at the sounding of the 7th trumpet, when the kingdoms of the earth are turned over to Jesus, it was because ADAM'S 6000 YEAR LEASE WILL RUN OUT! Satan usurped Adam's lease. So when the lease (the scroll in the Father's right hand, the same scroll with the 7 seals) runs out, automatically the kingdoms of the world that Satan used to attempt to bribe Jesus were TRANSFERRED to the King of Kings and Lord of Lords. And at the same time, Michael is sent to take Satan DOWN. Suddenly Satan has no legal hold to ANYTHING. Do you not understand that if no one had been found worthy to break the seals, then Satan would remain the god of this world forever? This is why John wept much. He KNEW the great importance of the breaking of the seals to open this lease document. The breaking of the seals was the beginning of the end of the reign of Satan as the god of this present world.

Therefore, this battle has nothing to do with the battle when 1/3 of the angels followed him. John has shown us two battles, many thousands of years apart, in one chapter.

Finally, I can tell you, most emphatically, I heard Jesus Christ, the HEAD of the church and the body of Christ speak to me and TELL ME that the first 5 verses of Rev. 12 were a "history lesson" to John and were about HIS BIRTH. I heard His voice and I heard His words. They were very clear. I was NOT dreaming, I was very wide awake, studying diligently Rev. chapters 4 & 5. He spoke and told me to go and study chapter 12. He gave me a synopsis of the entire chapter, but spoke specifically of the first 5 verses. WHY study chapter 12 to understand chapters 4 & 5? It is very simple, BOTH are "history lessons."

Did you see the three questions God asked me about chapters 4 & 5? Perhaps you should try and answer them. It will help you see that God showed John some events of history while He was showing John FUTURE events. Take for example 5:6. This verse (in context) is showing is the very moment Jesus ascended into the throne room - the VERY SAME moment the Holy Spirit was sent down. There is proof that this is the intended meaning of the Author.

LAMAD

 

[interpreter]

The part about George and the U.S???

Well, George and the US came along 1464 years after the 1st horseman. But yes, the most powerful Christian nation in history, whose weapons bring hell and death, is mentioned in the Revelation, and pointed to by the starguide of chapter one, which forms 21 vectors that point to all the good things foretold. One of the vectors points to New York City, Philadelphis and Washington DC (the 3 historical capitals of the US) like 3 ducks in a row.

 

[interpreter]

This is incorrect. It's not history. It's not about the birth of Jesus, it's about the 2nd Coming of Jesus. It's not biblical and a false doctrine to twist the meaning of the bible to fit what you believe. Look at the verse from several translations. It's all future tense and nothing historic about it.


Revelation 12:5
New International Version (NIV)
She gave birth to a son, a male child, who “will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.”[a] And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne.

Revelation 12:5
American Standard Version (ASV)
And she was delivered of a son, a man child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and unto his throne.

Revelation 12:5
New Century Version (NCV)
Then the woman gave birth to a son who will rule all the nations with an iron rod. And her child was taken up to God and to his throne.

Revelation 12:5
English Standard Version (ESV)
She gave birth to a male child, one who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron, but her child was caught up to God and to his throne,

Revelation 12:5
Amplified Bible (AMP)
And she brought forth a male Child, One Who is destined to shepherd (rule) all the nations with an iron staff (scepter), and her Child was caught up to God and to His throne.

Here's 2 Greek confirmation of Rev 12 is indeed a future event:

http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/rev12.pdf

Greek and Hebrew Reader's Edition | BibleWebApp.com
_________________________________

"The Woman, Child and the Dragon"

The Woman is "not" Mary, therefore it's not about the past. Mary is always referred as the Virgin, never the Woman. So this is not about the birth of Jesus, it's about the 2nd Coming of Jesus. The Woman is Israel, but to be precise, it's the 144,000 FirstFruits - which is still in the future.

The Child is Jesus' 2nd Coming, not the 1st coming. Jesus "never" came to earth with a rod of iron and never ruled all the kingdoms of the earth 2000 years ago. That's still in the future in His 2nd Coming. (This is so easy to see, how can people misinterpret something so obvious and think it's history?).

The Dragon is the antichrist. Nowhere in history did satan or a dragon ever attacked Mary. Another debunk to the myth of Rev 12 being history. In chapter 12, satan the dragon gets kicked out of Heaven and cast upon the earth (3rd Woe). Satan can't touch us without becoming flesh, he becomes satan the antichrist upon earth. He gives his power and authority to the person who will become the antichrist.

Last time satan became flesh was in the Garden of Eden as a snake. The reason is because of Ephesian 6:12. Satan is in the Supernatural realm, not in our realm.

Ephesians 6:12 (NKJV)
For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age,[a] against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places

"All of Revelation 12 is described in a metaphor type explanation" That's the truth and there's absolutely no history about it once you understand it.

________________________________

Revelation 12:1-2 (NKJV)
The Woman, the Child, and the Dragon

1) Now a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a garland of twelve stars. 2) Then being with child, she cried out in labor and in pain to give birth.

The 12 Stars are the 12 Tribes of the 144,000.

"She cried out in labor and in pain to give birth" is metaphor of the 144,000 fleeing and trying to survive their annihilation from the antichrist during the 2nd half of the tribulation. It's because of them, Jesus' 2nd Coming happens at that time to rescue them. They give birth to Jesus who will rule with a rod of iron.

Jesus isn't specifically returning at that time to save all of Israel, it's mainly for His FirstFruit on Earth. Unfortunately, if you do the math from the bible's description, you'll see roughly 8 million Jews will perish and less than 300,000 will survive till the 2nd Coming.

First thing He does as described in Mark 13:27 is He'll gather all His FirstFruits in Heaven (The Church) and on Earth (144,000) together to be with Him upon His return. And the 144,000 will meet Him at Mount Zion.

Mark 13:27 (NKJV)
And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven.

Revelation 14:1 (NKJV)
The Lamb and the 144,000
Then I looked, and behold, a Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His Father’s name written on their foreheads.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Cu0LkglQgw

Who are the 144,000? - Rev. Charles Cooper

The Woman Clothed With the Sun - The ministry of the 144,000 during Great Tribulation

The 144,000 of the Tribulation, who are the 144,000 witnesses, the tribulation

________________________________________

Lastly, Revelation is not in perfect chronological order. There "IS" a reason why, but telling others that it's perfect will mislead those new to reading Revelation who won't understand.

Overall, there is no history lessons in Revelation. You just haven't figured out some of the events and how they tied into one another, but instead decided to accepted a wild idea to fit them into your eschatology.

Sorry Lamad, but that's what's happening.

[/quote]

The 144,000 are the 144,000 single male Jews who escaped the great tribulation of WW II by fleeing to the Holy Land. That's how many were available to the newly created IDF in 1948. 100,000 joined the military, and 44,000 were conscientious objectors (i.e, ultra-Orthodox Jews).

 

[Old Timer]

Finally, I can tell you, most emphatically, I heard Jesus Christ, the HEAD of the church and the body of Christ speak to me and TELL ME that the first 5 verses of Rev. 12 were a "history lesson" to John and were about HIS BIRTH. I heard His voice and I heard His words. They were very clear. I was NOT dreaming, I was very wide awake, studying diligently Rev. chapters 4 & 5. He spoke and told me to go and study chapter 12. He gave me a synopsis of the entire chapter, but spoke specifically of the first 5 verses. WHY study chapter 12 to understand chapters 4 & 5? It is very simple, BOTH are "history lessons."

Well if you're going to claim that the Lord speaks to you audibly then what do the scriptures matter?

What does it matter if these are the things which shall be?

What does it matter if Paul says that the Day of the Lord shall come as travail upon a woman?

What does it matter if Michael shall stand up for Daniel's people in the time of the end?

If God Himself told you that it's a history lesson.

My only suggestion would be to think of the possibility that you might have been hearing someone else..

 

[10s3r]

Lamad said,

So, 10s3r, I will say what God said: if you cannot answer these three questions correctly, you will never understand this part of John's vision. I will go one step further: if you cannot answer these three questions correctly, you will never understand the author's intent of the first seals.


Just so you know, my "method" of interpretation is to ask the Author. It is the best way. You are only using human reasoning, which has left you thinking you know, when in fact, you don't - as to the real intent of the Author.

10s3r, you cannot pull verses from their context and even HOPE to get the right meaning. The CONTEXT of the first seal is in chapter 5. John saw the very moment Jesus ascended into the throne room. You can try to ignore this, but as long as you do, you will be confused and not even know it. John is setting the TIMING of the first seals. Believe it or not.

Just so you will forever know the truth, the first seal is the CHURCH sent out to make disciples of all nations. This rider rides alone. The next three rides together for Satan, trying to stop the advance of the church. They were LIMITED in their theater of operation to one fourth of the earth. This war has been ongoing for centuries. Of course they FAILED. The church advanced PAST that 1/4 and is now around the world.

You are even confused about what makes a true prophet of God.

We are not dealing with chapter 4 and 5.

We are in Chapter 6.

I'm not going to educate you on the criteria of a true prophet of God. YOU KNOW a prophet cannot prophesy about something already in existence. But you just don't care about that little contradiction.
I've done my homework on the seals and I use the lexicons to prove my point. It's the right thing to do. On the second seal, I remember reading from several interpreters that what confounded them was that a "very large literal sword" was implied.

The white horse symbol of Rev.6:2 has had a host of interpretations. Possibly as much as any other controversial end-time symbol. Some bible scholars have attributed this white horse to Catholicism, the anti-Christ, Christ and the Church, the Holy Spirit, Michael the Archangel, and even "cold war.

Those who believe it's the AC say the bow symbolizes a bow of peace, reflecting the peaceable entry of the anti-Christ. Another is that the rider is Christ and the "missing arrows" indicate the gospel going forth.

All of these arguments are bogus.

The most common belief about this passage is that it represents either Christ or the anti-Christ. My argument is that neither of these theories have any scriptural support. Some say that Christ is the only one in scripture who rides a white horse. In Rev. 19, Christ does ride a white horse, but so do the heavenly armies that follow Him.

Christ or the church are never associated with a bow.

Christ is mentioned as having a sharp sword and as having many crowns.

In Revelation 19, Christ wears a "diadem," denoting a royal crown and universal dominion. This view suggest that the missing arrows symbolize the gospel that has gone forth into the world. Nowhere in the bible is the gospel referred to as a bow with missing arrows.

And, Christ is the one opening the seals! Why would he also be the rider of this white horse. Why would the first seal be the emerging church or Christ and all the other seals be really bad? With that kind of interpretation there's no continuity or fluidity and it really makes no sense that so much bad (seals 2,3,4)would follow something so good.(seal 1)

Simply studying the Word of God in the English translation is ok sometimes.

But to get the true intended meaning of any author in any passage we must look at it in the language they spoke and wrote it in.

Most of us believe in the inspired Word of God.

The word inspired means God breathed or God spoke.

When God spoke to His servants the prophets He spoke to them in the language they also spoke, understood, and wrote.

So one of the most important parts of my hermeneutic is to research the definition of the words in the text in the language it was spoken, written, heard, and understood. AND then look at how those same biblical words are used elsewhere in the bible...AND accept the definition of those words regardless if it goes against what I already believe.

We should approach the scriptures as unbiased as we can. Most people who study God's Word do so in the light of what they already believe. Mainstream Christianity often has the incorrect interpretation of God's Word because they listen to the experts who approach the scriptures with their already pre-conceived ideas. People are and often unwilling to reconsider their beliefs because they think they already have the truth.

That's why I said,

"It's more difficult for people to unlearn something than it was for them to learn it in the first place."

When people start getting cornered enough that's when then start implying that they have the truth because they have the Holy Spirit and the other person doesn't.

I've never had to resort to that kind of thing. I let my words speak for themselves. Take them the way you want.

Buy the truth, and sell it not; also wisdom, and instruction, and understanding.

 

[10s3r]

Another thing that shows us where we are in the book of Revelation is the correct understanding of 'apostasy'. Sorry but Christians just don't have this one right. Apostasy is also one of the most mis-understood of all end-time things.

Christian's have the preconceived idea that apostasy is a defection from sound doctrinal truth.

There's not one logical, theological, or grammatical reason to believe 2 Thes. 2 has anything to do with Christians or the end-time Church in any form. To attribute this apostasy or the harlot to God's Church in any way is an absolute perversion of His Word.

We are the only religion that has a different view of apostasy.

This is the web definition of apostasy.

Apostasy - (noun)
1. The act of abandoning a party or cause.

2. The state of having rejected your religious beliefs, political party, cause or sports team in favor of opposing beliefs, causes or teams.

3. A defection, renunciation, disaffiliation, abandonment or revolt from a previous association.

4. (Islamic definition) Rejection in word or deed of one's former religion.

5. (Christian definition) To fall away from the truth.

Apostasy implies going from one thing to another. It means to abandon the religion or political party your currently in and go to another...or nothing at all. I can't emphasize that enough. Antiochus enforced an apostasy from Judaism to Hellenism and changed "the national religion."

Apostasy is a political and/or religious revolt just like what's taking place in the Arab Islamic world today.

Hasan A. Yahya, the Dean of Arab Writers in North America said,

"This article calls for wider scope of protest and revolutions in the Arab countries, otherwise, these revolutions and protests are incomplete and misguided. In his opinion, the revolution may satisfy one country, it does not satisfy all Arabs who aspire for unity, one currency, one economy, and one flag that covers a land with no borders between."

Read more: A New Definition of Apostasy and Heretics: Sociological Analysis

Did you notice what the Mr. Yahya said,

"....it does not satisfy all Arabs who aspire for unity, one currency, one economy, and one flag that covers a land with no borders between."

Does, "What the rebels want" ring a bell with any of you???

The apostasy is taking place today in that region.

The Christian understanding of apostasy is one of the most mis-guided interpretations of all.

 

[iamlamad]

Well if you're going to claim that the Lord speaks to you audibly then what do the scriptures matter?

What does it matter if these are the things which shall be?

What does it matter if Paul says that the Day of the Lord shall come as travail upon a woman?

What does it matter if Michael shall stand up for Daniel's people in the time of the end?

If God Himself told you that it's a history lesson.

My only suggestion would be to think of the possibility that you might have been hearing someone else..

First you should note what Jesus said, "my sheep hear my voice..." If you are not hearing, I would wonder WHY? HE SPEAKS!

Next, we don't throw out the bible because we hear the voice of God. He ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS speaks according to His written WORD. HE IS ONE with His Word. And what He said to me fits this passage PERFECTLY. However, it will not fit a false theory or idea about these verses. When we read of the sun and moon and 12 stars, we should IMMEDIATELY think of Joseph. We use the bible to interpret....is that idea too farfetched? By the way, Jesus came FROM Israel....Israel gave birth to Jesus. Jesus gave birth to the church, not the church giving birth to Jesus. Sorry, but the church will not fit in ANY WAY on verses 1-5. They are not about the church.

Michael DOES stand up, because He is to take Satan DOWN for his position as prince of the power of the AIR. However, Michael standing up for this battle has absolutely nothing to do with Satan falling before the Days of Adam and taking 1/3 of the angels with Him. Why are you struggling so with this?

The Pulpit commentary:
"In describing the vast power of the devil, St. John seems to allude to the tremendous result of his rebellious conduct in heaven, in effecting the fall of other angels with himself (Jude 1:6)."

Gill's commentary:
"as the dragon Herod sought to take away the life of Jesus quickly after his birth;"

John Darby:
"a woman clothed with the sun, having a crown of twelve stars, and the moon under her feet. It is Israel, or Jerusalem as its centre as in the purpose of God. She is clothed with supreme authority, invested with the glory of perfect administration in man, and all the original reflected glory of this under the old covenant, under her feet. She was travailing in childbirth, distressed, and in pain to be delivered: on the other hand Satan's power in the form of the Roman Empire, complete in forms of power, seven heads, but incomplete in administrative supremacy-ten, not twelve horns. But Satan, as the open infidel enemy of God and God's power in Christ, sought to devour the child as soon as born, who was to have the rule of the earth from God."

Robertson's Word Pictures:
" Charles takes this to refer to a war in heaven between the good angels and Satan, with the fall of some angels ( Jude 1:6 )" "Precisely so the devil tried to destroy the child Jesus on his birth."

Commentary on Revelation (Cannot find the Author)
"He exhibited considerable influence over the stars with his tail. He was key in their rebellion. This is not his final casting out, but his original fall in sin and corruption of a portion of the heavenly host (Isa. Isa. 14:12; Eze. Eze. 28:14). This occurred early in God’s created order, prior to the temptation of Eve in the Garden of Eden"

"a third of the stars of heaven
Stars refer to the angels (messengers or leaders) of the churches (Rev. Rev. 1:20+). They also refer to angels (Job Job 38:7; Rev. Rev. 9:1+; (4). Here, they refer to angels which followed the dragon in his rejection of God and fall into sin (Isa. Isa. 14:12; Eze. Eze. 28:15). They are “his angels” (Rev. Rev. 12:7+, Rev. 12:9+). Since there is an innumerable host of angels (see commentary on Revelation 5:11 ), one-third of such a vast number is countless."

"threw them to the earth
Fallen angels (demons) were on the earth well in advance of Christ’s advent (Gen. Gen. 6:2-4"

"woman who was ready to give birth
The promised birth witnessed by the law and the prophets (Gen. Gen. 3:15; Isa. Isa. 7:14; Isa. 9:6-7) was about to find fulfillment (Mtt. Mat. 1:20; Luke Luke 1:34)."

"Herod’s slaughter of the babes in his attempt to murder Jesus (Mtt. Mat. 2:16)."

as soon as it was born
Although the serpent stood before the woman over an extended period of time, he made one last attempt when the child was first born. Through Herod, the serpent ordered the slaughter of all male children in Bethlehem and its districts who were two years old and under (Mtt. Mat. 2:16).

Revelation commentary Ian Mackervoy
"Joseph had a dream (Genesis 37:9-11). In that dream, he saw the sun, the moon and 11 stars. The sun meant Jacob who was also called *Israel. The moon meant Jacob’s wife. The stars meant Joseph’s brothers. The 12 *tribes of *Israel came from Joseph and his brothers. So, the woman whom John saw meant the nation called *Israel.
The woman cried out because of the pains of birth. The Christ would be born into the nation called *Israel."


"Verse 4 John saw the tail of the *dragon sweep the sky. A third of the stars seemed to fall out of the sky. These stars seem to mean *angels. When *Satan became God’s enemy, many *angels supported *Satan. These evil *angels had to leave heaven.
The *dragon waited to kill the child as soon as it was born. When Jesus was born, Herod tried to kill him. This *dragon also failed.
Verse 5 The baby boy was born to the woman. That boy was Jesus. He was born to Mary who belonged to the nation called *Israel. But the woman whom John saw was not Mary. The woman in John’s *prophecy meant the *Jews who believed in the *Lord."

Old timer, I was really disappointed in the most popular commentaries, as I often am. Most in my opinion are lost in what they wrote about Revelation.

You must get the idea of ONLY things to come out of your mind! It is wrong. In Chapter 1, John is told He will write of things past, present and future. To say that from a certain verse on all must be future is silly.

Can you imagine the possibility that your theory is not the intended meaning of this passage? Did that thought even occur to you? Have you TRIED to fit history to the words written just to see if they MIGHT fit?
If a brother in Christ tells you he heard from God, I think you should at least TRY and see if what he tells you God said fits the written word of God. One person does not and can not receive all revelation. We MUST learn from others revelations. Paul did not write ALL the New Testament. Others got some revelation and wrote. I am SURE Peter learned from Paul.

By the way, it is written MY SHEEP (that would be me) hears my voice. Then he added, "they know not the voice of strangers." The Holy Spirit talks to our spirit, not to our head. Other spirits can only speak outside. It is easy to learn how to listen INSIDE, where God speaks. It takes practice, but it is easy. It is also easy to learn to recognize HIS voice, just as He said.

LAMAD