Where are we now in the book of Revelation?

[iamlamad]

LAMAD if you'd like to pretend that God speaks to you audibly then go right ahead.

Hearing The Lord's voice has absolutely nothing to do with hearing Him audibly.

That's why we have a more sure word of prophecy in the scriptures... To prevent every believer from pretending that they heard God tell them that Rev 12 is a history lesson when it expressly states that these are the things which shall be hereafter.

So now you are calling me a liar? Old Timer, I am a fellow brother in Christ. I know that liars don't go to heaven. This is a hard thing you are saying.

Did you not remember the story of Samuel and Eli? Samuel heard a voice calling him and thought it was Eli - but it was GOD. For sure it was an AUDIBLE voice.

Did you not remember Saul? Saul was knocked from his horse and heard a voice saying "Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?"

Did you forget about the men with Saul? "the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man."

Did you forget about Peter who said, "I heard a voice saying unto me, Arise, Peter; slay and eat."

Old Timer, you KNOW these things. You also know God is the same, yesterday, today and forever. Yet, because you have not heard His voice, you deny the scriptures and call me a liar. I forgive you, for I now you say it in ignorance.

Just so you know, there IS the "still small voice." There is the "inward witness." But God also speaks in an audible voice, so real, you look behind to see who said it. IT sounds like all the room (IF there were others around) would hear, but in reality most of the time it is God speaking to the human spirit and only the one spoken to would hear.

I also see you are determined to keep your preconceived glasses on, and will not take them off for ANYTHING. You have believed that all from chapter 4 on is future. Well, your preconceived idea is WRONG.

Rev. 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

If from the 6th seal onward, chapters 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21 are all future events, which they are, does not God fulfill what He has said to John? In truth, He shows John MANY THINGS to come in John's future and even our future. From John's perspective, all of those chapters listed were future to him and still future to us today. Does this then fulfill "I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.?" Old Timer, YOU KNOW IT DOES. God showed John MANY things that were to be "hereafter."

I know your preconceived glasses tell you John wrote, "I will shew thee ONLY the things which must be hereafter." If this was what John wrote, you would have an argument. However, John did not write this and you very well know it.

If I were in your place, I would begin meditating on "My sheep hear my voice" and begin asking God WHY I HAVEN'T HEARD.

Next, I would RUN back to ACTS 1 and meditate that chapter, and ask God to forgive me for bypassing it. By the way, did you notice in Acts 1, it was not a suggestion that they be filled with His spirit - it was a COMMAND. So now you are a disobedient Christian, having BYPASSED the mighty baptism with the Holy Spirit. Since I have already caused you enough grief you have called me a liar, I will go on: VERY FEW people, if any, that have not received the mighty baptism with the Holy Spirit ever hear the voice of God. On the other hand, MANY that have received this baptism with the Holy Spirit and pray in the Spirit DO hear His voice. So please, instead of criticizing me, and calling me a liar, do your duty and STUDY to show yourself approved. I am not criticizing you - I am trying to help you!

LAMAD

 

[iamlamad]

OH NO! What do we do now.. I hear the voice of God, you hear the voice of God, we all hear the voice of God and He says different things to all of us..

Now what do we do?

I have an idea.. I'll pretend that I'm more spiritual than you are and basically tell you that you're not hearing the same God as I am..

There.. all fixed.

There is more truth in this post than you may care to believe. Many SAY they hear from God and have totally off the wall doctrines. It is very clear that many hear from the wrong spirit. Did you ever wonder WHY we have hundreds of denominations, all thinking THEY are the only ones right?

As I said before, when GOD speaks, it is always in line with His word. After all, HE is the Author!

LAMAD

 

[Old Timer]

So now you are calling me a liar? Old Timer, I am a fellow brother in Christ. I know that liars don't go to heaven. This is a hard thing you are saying.

A liar would be someone who knows the truth and deliberately speaks against it.. imo..

You're not lying.. you're simply believing that God spoke audibly to you when it could have been a different voice.. simple as that.

Did you not remember the story of Samuel and Eli? Samuel heard a voice calling him and thought it was Eli - but it was GOD. For sure it was an AUDIBLE voice.

Did you not remember Saul? Saul was knocked from his horse and heard a voice saying "Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?"

Did you forget about the men with Saul? "the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man."

Did you forget about Peter who said, "I heard a voice saying unto me, Arise, Peter; slay and eat."

Old Timer, you KNOW these things. You also know God is the same, yesterday, today and forever. Yet, because you have not heard His voice, you deny the scriptures and call me a liar. I forgive you, for I now you say it in ignorance.

And I know that you know that I know that GOD DID speak audibly in the OT times.. simply because the written word was not available for us to read on a daily basis..

Completely different time and topic and once again, the Apostle Peter (who DID actually hear God audibly) told us flat out that we have a more sure word in the scriptures.

Otherwise we have the exact scenario here.. everyone claiming to hear God's voice audible regardless of what the scriptures do say in their simplicity and truth.

Just so you know, there IS the "still small voice." There is the "inward witness." But God also speaks in an audible voice, so real, you look behind to see who said it. IT sounds like all the room (IF there were others around) would hear, but in reality most of the time it is God speaking to the human spirit and only the one spoken to would hear.

I know, God just told me that Rev 12 is in the future, all of it.

I also see you are determined to keep your preconceived glasses on, and will not take them off for ANYTHING. You have believed that all from chapter 4 on is future. Well, your preconceived idea is WRONG.

Rev. 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

If from the 6th seal onward, chapters 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21 are all future events, which they are, does not God fulfill what He has said to John? In truth, He shows John MANY THINGS to come in John's future and even our future. From John's perspective, all of those chapters listed were future to him and still future to us today. Does this then fulfill "I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.?" Old Timer, YOU KNOW IT DOES. God showed John MANY things that were to be "hereafter."

I know your preconceived glasses tell you John wrote, "I will shew thee ONLY the things which must be hereafter." If this was what John wrote, you would have an argument. However, John did not write this and you very well know it.

If I were in your place, I would begin meditating on "My sheep hear my voice" and begin asking God WHY I HAVEN'T HEARD.

Next, I would RUN back to ACTS 1 and meditate that chapter, and ask God to forgive me for bypassing it. By the way, did you notice in Acts 1, it was not a suggestion that they be filled with His spirit - it was a COMMAND. So now you are a disobedient Christian, having BYPASSED the mighty baptism with the Holy Spirit. Since I have already caused you enough grief you have called me a liar, I will go on: VERY FEW people, if any, that have not received the mighty baptism with the Holy Spirit ever hear the voice of God. On the other hand, MANY that have received this baptism with the Holy Spirit and pray in the Spirit DO hear His voice. So please, instead of criticizing me, and calling me a liar, do your duty and STUDY to show yourself approved. I am not criticizing you - I am trying to help you!

LAMAD

I know I know.. now it's because I haven't received the baptism of the Holy Spirit..

I just asked the LORD and He told me that you're wrong LAMAD.

That settles it.

Call me a liar if it makes you feel better.

 

[shturt678s]

Jack, how does the Spirit communicate with you?

Have you had a conversation with Him?


For me its through conviction, or straight up telling me I need to do something, but not with an audible voice, but by giving me thoughts that I cant turn from, at least not without a measure of guilt.

I have too much respect for you and others ergo I'll be candid this one time. The Antichristian propaganda has been speaking to me for too long even while I was a serious Christian, ie, I got tired of it about 4 years ago. Since that time once in awhile our Lord speaks to me through the Scriptures only. Most of the time I cannot differentiate the voice of the antichristian propaganda and our Lord Jesus, however after scrutinizing Scriptures recently (past 3 years or so) checking out what voice I was hearing through the Scriptures ony, it's been more of our Lord than the antichristian propaganda.

Thank you again for caring,

Old Jack's opinion

 

[shturt678s]

OH NO! What do we do now.. I hear the voice of God, you hear the voice of God, we all hear the voice of God and He says different things to all of us..

Now what do we do?

This is probably the closest we will get agreeing to agree.

I have an idea.. I'll pretend that I'm more spiritual than you are and basically tell you that you're not hearing the same God as I am..

There.. all fixed.

Back to agreeing to disagee again,

Old agreeing Jack

 

[Old Timer]

There is more truth in this post than you may care to believe. Many SAY they hear from God and have totally off the wall doctrines. It is very clear that many hear from the wrong spirit. Did you ever wonder WHY we have hundreds of denominations, all thinking THEY are the only ones right?

As I said before, when GOD speaks, it is always in line with His word. After all, HE is the Author!

LAMAD

The LORD told me that Rev 12 is in the future..

I just now read it in the scriptures where John is writing the things which shall be hereafter.

Paul also told me that the Day of the Lord (a thing which shall be hereafter) shall come as travail upon a woman with child.

Isaiah just asked me "Whoever heard of such a thing" as a woman being delivered of a man child before she travailed..

Micah told me that the Lord shall give them up until the time that she which travaileth hath brought forth..

Daniel told me that Micahel shall stand up for Daniel's people in the time of the end..

But maybe you're right.. maybe it's all just a history lesson.. after all that's what God told you right?

 

[Old Timer]

This is probably the closest we will get agreeing to agree.



Back to agreeing to disagee again,

Old agreeing Jack

Jack, now obviously we're hearing two different voices, so one of them or even both of them could be wrong..

Agreed?

Or are you one of those Christians who can't ever be wrong?

 

[shturt678s]

Jack, now obviously we're hearing two different voices, so one of them or even both of them could be wrong..

Agreed?

Or are you one of those Christians who can't ever be wrong?

I'm trying to remember when I didn't water down the Word of God? No sarcasm or rhetoric. Lately I've been more careful, and not offending our Lord that much, ie, at least I pray so anyway, ie, has more to do with my 'fear' of our Lord (Rom.3:18) not wanting to offend him waaay beyond Church on the whole "1" hour on Sunday sort of thing.

Thank you again,

Old Jack

 

[Old Timer]

Here's a thought..

WHO might want Christians to believe that the things which shall be hereafter are actually the things of the past?

Any ideas?

Any wild guesses who might want us to believe that?

 

[Old Timer]

I'm trying to remember when I didn't water down the Word of God? No sarcasm or rhetoric. Lately I've been more careful, and not offending our Lord that much, ie, at least I pray so anyway, ie, has more to do with my 'fear' of our Lord (Rom.3:18) not wanting to offend him waaay beyond Church on the whole "1" hour on Sunday sort of thing.

Thank you again,

Old Jack

Jack you're certainly a master of completely avoiding the obvious.

I really must give you that brother!

All I was trying to say is that it is possible that we are both wrong.

Simple as that.. nothing to worry about.. it's not like we're going to hell for admitting we could be wrong or anything like that.

 

[iamlamad]

Is that all you've got Lamad?

Paul isn't talking about a pre-trib rapture in the sudden destruction of 1 Thes. 5. That sudden destruction is the separation of the sheep and goats otherwise known as the judgment of nations. It's the judgment that debunks the nonsensical pre-trib question, "who will populate the Millennium."

This shows just how confused you really are! You need to study this more carefully! This sudden destruction will come INSTANTLY after the rapture. Why do you think Paul called it SUDDEN? It is clear you don't understand Paul's rapture, nor do you understand his "sudden destruction."

Did you not know that the judgment of the nations will come LONG after Paul's rapture, more that 7 years after. So much for your much acclaimed hermeneutic. I will give you this though, you are right about this judgment of the nations: its purpose is weed out all that will not make it into Christ's millennial kingdom. However, "who will populate the millennium" is a very valid question. Posttribbers have never answered the question as to HOW people in their natural bodies will enter Christ's kingdom. Indeed, it is impossible with a post trib rapture - UNLESS God will allow the unrighteous into His kingdom. Do you think there is a chance of that?

What sudden destruction comes when Christ raptures people?

NONE! The only 'sudden destruction' coming after the rapture are the judgments that follow!

Again you need to go back and study it again. SUDDEN means sudden! What is it that happens suddenly in that passage? It is both the rapture and the destruction. They are back to back events and cannot be separated. Did you not see the youtube video of how the rapture will be? There were many in the church; the preacher was preaching, and SUDDENLY there were only a few left on their seats - all the rest had disappeared. Paul's rapture will be exactly like that. INSTANTLY half the people on the planet will SUDDENLY disappear. Of course you won't because you don't believe it. Jesus is coming for those WATCHING for Him. YOu will be left behind.

Now let's go through this again:

Matthew 27
51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,


What is this? Whose graves were opened? It was the ELDERS of the Old Covenant: John SAW them around the throne. This is when they were raised from the dead and got their resurrection bodies. But notice there was a great EARTHQUAKE. What caused this earthquake? It was the graves opening - but more specific, it was GOD bringing the atoms of those long dead bodies together.

It will be exactly the same when the dead in Christ rise - many have been dead almost 2000 years. This will cause a worldwide earthquake - Paul's SUDDEN destruction.

AT this sudden event of the rapture, two different kinds of people get two results: those living in the light get "salvation" [raptured] and get to "live together with Him." But at the very same moment in time, those living in the darkness get SUDDEN DESTRUCTION, which is the beginning of WRATH.

3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

THEY get sudden destruction - WE get raptured. It is plain and simple if we read with no preconceived glasses.

Pre-tribbers like to use scare tactics. They would like you to think that when God takes Christians home, "planes, trains, and automobiles will crash and burn all over the earth killing untold millions of innocent people...even your kids sitting in the back seat! Is that what you mean by "sudden destruction." you're talking about? Or are you saying that after the rapture people will have to go through tribulation and therefore that's their "sudden destruction."

Pretribbers tell the truth of the Word of God. Those raptured will be instantly caught up into the clouds in the air, to meet HIM. Does that seem to you like someone will have time to park the bus or land a plane? The truth is, God has not told us about someone flying a plane or driving a bus. However, this same scenario would certainly be the same IF the rapture came at the end. In EITHER case it will be instant and people will be caught up to be with HIM. Therefore your argument is SILLY. It is not an argument about WHEN at all.

I know you and the others have difficulty quoting "one verse of prophecy" that implicates Rome in any way. Try this one...

Surely. If Christ truly was going to return "BEFORE" the tribulation, then there must certainly be at least "one verse of prophecy," where Christ is said to return "BEFORE' the tribulation. Can you quote ONE verse that say's Christ returns before the tribulation???

Paul wrote it; why don't you believe it? John wrote it, and you still don't believe it. Paul tells us his rapture will come before the Day of the Lord, and as the trigger for that day. John shows us the raptured church in heaven (chapter 7) before he has even began the 70th week, and just as the DAY is about to begin.

Now I know you're going to post a verse about the Lords return, and I'm sure that it will say nothing about the Lord returning "BEFORE" the tribulation.

In every verse of prophecy where the Day of the Lord is mentioned it refers to His return toward the end of tribulation for warfare and divine judgment.

Again you show your ignorance of scripture;

Joel 1
15 Alas for the day! for the day of the Lord is at hand, and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come.
16 Is not the meat cut off before our eyes, yea, joy and gladness from the house of our God?
17 The seed is rotten under their clods, the garners are laid desolate, the barns are broken down; for the corn is withered.
18 How do the beasts groan! the herds of cattle are perplexed, because they have no pasture; yea, the flocks of sheep are made desolate.
19 O Lord, to thee will I cry: for the fire hath devoured the pastures of the wilderness, and the flame hath burned all the trees of the field.
20 The beasts of the field cry also unto thee: for the rivers of waters are dried up, and the fire hath devoured the pastures of the wilderness.

Fulfilled here:
Rev 8
7 The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.

HOW did John end the 6th chapter? "The DAY of His wrath has come." Then His wrath begins with this first trumpet judgment. Did Jesus come? OF COURSE NOT! You are confused, thinking the Day of the Lord will begin with HIS COMING. The Day of the Lord begins LONG before Jesus returns. This is the truth of Scripture.

Pretribulationism is the most fabricated, complicated, contradictory, and widely held false teaching of all time. It's an outright perversion of God's Word.

You have fallen for the most deceitful doctrine the Church has ever had to endure. And the rest of your eschatology reflects it!

Pretribulationsm. The devil would want it no other way!

Your ignorance is showing again. Paul and John agree: the Bride of Christ will be IN HEAVEN before the 70th week begins.

You just go ahead with your beliefs. You will anyway. You will certainly be LEFT BEHIND wondering why you were not taken. You are setting YOUR OWN APPOINTMENT with His wrath.

But WHY? Why set your OWN appointment? Why not follow Luke?Luke 21:36

36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.


You really could obey this verse.


LAMAD

 

[Old Timer]

But then again I've learned recently that Christians are never wrong.. they're only misunderstood.

 

[iamlamad]

Here's a thought..

WHO might want Christians to believe that the things which shall be hereafter are actually the things of the past?

Any ideas?

Any wild guesses who might want us to believe that?

Why not just read that the way God intended? Why wear preconceived glasses? AT least a FEW commentaries got this right.

"a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:"

Any student of the bible would immediately think:

Genesis 37:9 And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me.

Of course Joseph himself was the 12th star. So far this is telling us John is seeing symbols of ISRAEL.

2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

What did Israel give birth to? Of course the MESSIAH had to come through Israel. Did you not read the Begats? They are almost all ISRAEL.

3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.


Do you imagine King Herod murdered all the children in Bethlehem on his own? You cannot imagine Satan had anything to do with it? OF COURSE it was Satan behind King Herod! That is what John is telling us.


5 And she brought forth a man child...


Does this fit? Did Mary of Israel bring forth a man child? CERTAINLY she did.


5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.


Was Jesus to rule all nations with a rod of Iron? YES! Did Jesus get caught up to HIS THRONE in heaven? CERTAINLY HE DID! What does Psalms 2 tell us?


Pslams 2:9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.


Now you tell me, what part of this does NOT FIT the birth of Jesus Christ - except some crazy preconceived idea that God cannot talk about history in his visions to John?


LAMAD

 

[iamlamad]

A liar would be someone who knows the truth and deliberately speaks against it.. imo..

You're not lying.. you're simply believing that God spoke audibly to you when it could have been a different voice.. simple as that.



And I know that you know that I know that GOD DID speak audibly in the OT times.. simply because the written word was not available for us to read on a daily basis..

Completely different time and topic and once again, the Apostle Peter (who DID actually hear God audibly) told us flat out that we have a more sure word in the scriptures.

Otherwise we have the exact scenario here.. everyone claiming to hear God's voice audible regardless of what the scriptures do say in their simplicity and truth.



I know, God just told me that Rev 12 is in the future, all of it.



I know I know.. now it's because I haven't received the baptism of the Holy Spirit..

I just asked the LORD and He told me that you're wrong LAMAD.

That settles it.

Call me a liar if it makes you feel better.

My dear brother, I don't call fellow brothers in the Lord liars. However, it certainly SEEMS you are now trying to deceive me, even if it is more like a joke.

No, I just believe you are mistaken. It is not a life and death thing. But let's not just skip over this baptism with the Holy Spirit! As I said, it was not given as a suggestion, it was a command of the Lord. And I can assure you, it is VERY REAL. Did you study Acts 8? Did you study Acts 19?

LAMAD

 

[Old Timer]

Why not just read that the way God intended? Why wear preconceived glasses? AT least a FEW commentaries got this right.

"a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:"

Any student of the bible would immediately think:

Genesis 37:9 And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me.

Of course Joseph himself was the 12th star. So far this is telling us John is seeing symbols of ISRAEL.

2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

What did Israel give birth to? Of course the MESSIAH had to come through Israel. Did you not read the Begats? They are almost all ISRAEL.

3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.


Do you imagine King Herod murdered all the children in Bethlehem on his own? You cannot imagine Satan had anything to do with it? OF COURSE it was Satan behind King Herod! That is what John is telling us.


5 And she brought forth a man child...


Does this fit? Did Mary of Israel bring forth a man child? CERTAINLY she did.


5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.


Was Jesus to rule all nations with a rod of Iron? YES! Did Jesus get caught up to HIS THRONE in heaven? CERTAINLY HE DID! What does Psalms 2 tell us?


Pslams 2:9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.


Now you tell me, what part of this does NOT FIT the birth of Jesus Christ - except some crazy preconceived idea that God cannot talk about history in his visions to John?


LAMAD

What doesn't fit is the context of Revelation 12.. concerning Israel being DELIVERED and protected for a time, times, and half a time.

How does that fit into the first century when Israel REJECTED Christ and the gospel then went out to the GENTILES?

How does that fit here..?

Seriously..

It has absolutely NOTHING to do with the context.

However.. Israel being with child and being in travail makes perfect sense.. in the future.. because that's one of the huge indicators of the Day of the Lord coming..

As travail upon a woman with child.

I don't know how much clearer I could state my case LAMAD..

You probably can't even fathom that regardless of the fact that there's scriptural evidence all over it.

And that's fine.. you'll simply keep believing that this is in the past and that God told you so so that settles it.

What more is there to say?

I don't have the baptism of the Holy Spirit so I couldn't possibly be on par with you here.

Sorry..

 

[Old Timer]

My dear brother, I don't call fellow brothers in the Lord liars.

No, instead you said that I'm calling you a liar.

However, it certainly SEEMS you are now trying to deceive me, even if it is more like a joke.

No joke, the LORD simply speaks to me in a different way than He speaks to you evidently.. because let's face the facts here.. I haven't been baptized with the Holy Spirit..

So obviously I can't hear God audibly as you can.

No, I just believe you are mistaken. It is not a life and death thing. But let's not just skip of this baptism with the Holy Spirit! As I said, it was not given as a suggestion, it was a command of the Lord. And I can assure you, it is VERY REAL. Did you study Acts 8? Did you study Acts 19?

LAMAD

An I believe that you're mistaken..

Now what..

I know.. I'll go try to see where I missed the baptism of the Holy Spirit so that I can hear God audibly as you do.

 

[bibletruth469]

No, instead you said that I'm calling you a liar. No joke, the LORD simply speaks to me in a different way than He speaks to you evidently.. because let's face the facts here.. I haven't been baptized with the Holy Spirit.. So obviously I can't hear God audibly as you can. An I believe that you're mistaken.. Now what.. I know.. I'll go try to see where I missed the baptism of the Holy Spirit so that I can hear God audibly as you do.

Every child of God has been baptized by the Holy Spirit at the time of salvation ( justification ), so if you are one of His, you have the Holy Spirit . The Holy Spirit will not leave the true believer .

 

[Old Timer]

Every child of God has been baptized by the Holy Spirit at the time of salvation ( justification ), so if you are one of His, you have the Holy Spirit . The Holy Spirit will not leave the true believer .

I believe this bibletruth.. What you write here.

I was told that I don't have the Spirit because I don't hear God speaking to me audibly.

Not sure what your thoughts are on that although IMO it's important. I certainly believe that all believers hear the voice of God speak although that is through the miracle of His living and powerful word. The Sword of the Spirit.

I do not believe that God speaks audibly today as He clearly did in the OT. The apostle Peter tells us that we have a more sure word of prophecy in the scriptures, even more sure than if we were to hear His own voice, audibly.

Paul tells us that there are many voices in the world.. and he isn't restricting that to audible voices.

Hearing is not always hearing something physically.. It's hearing its content and embracing it.

.02

 

[iamlamad]

What doesn't fit is the context of Revelation 12.. concerning Israel being DELIVERED and protected for a time, times, and half a time.

How does that fit into the first century when Israel REJECTED Christ and the gospel then went out to the GENTILES?

How does that fit here..?

Seriously..

It has absolutely NOTHING to do with the context.

However.. Israel being with child and being in travail makes perfect sense.. in the future.. because that's one of the huge indicators of the Day of the Lord coming..

As travail upon a woman with child.

I don't know how much clearer I could state my case LAMAD..

You probably can't even fathom that regardless of the fact that there's scriptural evidence all over it.

And that's fine.. you'll simply keep believing that this is in the past and that God told you so so that settles it.

What more is there to say?

I don't have the baptism of the Holy Spirit so I couldn't possibly be on par with you here.

Sorry..

What is the CONTEXT of the entire 12th chapter? It is God introducing John to the DRAGON. The dragon is mentioned I think 32 times in this chapter. So the CONTEXT if this chapter is the DRAGON, and in particular what the dragon would be doing during the last half of the week. This would included his being cast down.

However, God CHOSE to show John what the dragon DID at the birth of Christ. But this was written as a parenthesis. The Greeks did not have nice punctuation marks like we have, () to mark off parenthesis. We have to discover them by study, or be instructed by God. The truth is, the first five verses are written as a parenthesis. You are right, they have NO BEARING on the rest of the chapters EXCEPT in regard to the Dragon. Chapter 11 ends one second or so after the abomination. Chapter 12 verse 6 continues with the same time: one second or so after the abomination. Surely you understand parenthesis?

Next, you should know that the 70th week of DANIEL is not about Gentiles, it is for ISRAEL. Of course Gentiles will feel God's wrath also, but Daniel Himself tells us it is for THEM.

Israel being with child and being in travail is about the birth of the manchild that was caught up to heaven. How can that be ANYTHING ELSE but about Christ? What "manchild" will be caught up to God at the midpoint of the week? There is no other reference anywhere in Revelation to tie it to. Is it referencing the 144,000 that will be caught up to heaven later? Were they to "rule with a rod of Iron?" NO.

The truth is, This chapter was God introducing John to the Dragon and what the dragon would be doing in the last half of the week. But God CHOSE to show John what the dragon did when Jesus was born. This is almost word for word what God spoke to me. And it FITS. That is, if one does not wear thick preconceived glasses. We have to let the TEXT form or conceptions, not the other way around. Is the story of the Dragon trying to kill Jesus as a child related to the dragon? OF COURSE IT IS. This chapter is all about the dragon, mentioned 32 times.

Therefore you are MISTAKEN: it DOES have to do with the context. But written as a parenthesis it is NOT RELATED to the chronology.

I can see how travail relates to the Day of the Lord. But can you explain the child part of that argument? It does not fit! That is preconception interfering with your thinking.

There are other parenthesis in Revelation. I wonder if you know where they are? Many miss a big one and are TOTALLY confused about John's Chronology due to that. The truth is, John was meticulous about his chronology.

As for your arguments, I asked you to explain them in more detail. You have not done that.

LAMAD

 

[Old Timer]

Israel being 'born again' as a nation.. receiving Jesus Christ as that woman..

It's like what happened to Mary being with child.. with Mary being a type of Israel.. and being born again..

I have often thought that Mary was a wonderful picture of how a person is born again (spiritually) although now I believe that she is a type of Israel..