Where are we now in the book of Revelation?

[Lollerskates]

I disagree. The first five seals were opened as soon as Jesus ascended.

LAMAD

The fifth seal was a continuous, ongoing thing since Christ went to glory after the resurrection. Is it still going on; their "fellows servents" are still dying for Christ"s name - in China, India, Mongolia, S. Korea, N. Korea, Russia, the States, the UK, and so on. When John saw it, it wasn't the beginning; a bunch of the saints had already died, crying out how long before the end. That seal fully breaks when a certain percentage has died, but not before the four horsemen come.

Despite the Plague, Ebola, Lassa, swine flu, etc., the plague coming will be truly global. The wars will be global. The poverty (i.e. global market collapse) will be global. Imperialism on a global scale is happening, and has been. The sixth seal, trump and vial are concurrent events specific to The Enemy, just as he seventh seal, trump and vial are concurrent events specific to Christ's advent.

 

[TPeterY]

If the rapture happens at the 6th seal, wouldn't that event time frame be classified as pre- wrath instead of pre- trib? The abomination of desolation happens at mid trib and the Jews are told to run for their lives. Doesn't the sudden destruction of Matt 24 happen at midpoint also? I myself believe pre- trib, but I really don't follow you . Please explain how you can still believe in a pre- trib rapture that happens at the 6 th seal. Thanks

Hi bibletruth,

It's because most End Time Bible experts think the Seals are part of the Tribulation when it really isn't. (I use to believe that also). The Seals are really signs before the Tribulation. Jesus never sends wrath and judgement. Father God does that. Jesus opens the Seals to send signs. But after the last Blood Moon to 2018, His return is truly imminent.

One big misunderstanding is not knowing what the actual seals represent and interpreting them as wraths and judgments against the church and the world. We both know God will not judge the church (The FirstFruit part of the Church) and we'll be gone before it happens.

The 6th Seal is the Blood Moon Event. The Church is raptured and in Heaven by the 7th Seal. The Tribulation will officially begin at the sounding of the 1st Trumpet.

Have you had a chance to read about the parallels I wrote about the Olivet Discourse and the 7 Seals? It's reply #4 in thread below.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7817594/

___________________________________

And yes, the sudden destruction of Matt 24 does happen at the midpoint.

Matthew 24:3-14 are signs for the FirstFruit of the Church before Jesus returns to rapture His bride.

Matthew 24:15-31 are guidance for the FirstFruit of Israel (144,000) to help them get through the tribulation.

If you notice, there's a 3.5 year gap between verse 14 and 15. It is because the Church is gone and Israel is in total peace during the first half of the tribulation while her neighboring enemies wage war against each other, and the world experiences tribulation from natural disasters.

There's no need for Jesus' guidance during the first half of the tribulation. His main concern are His FirstFruits.

 

[7sForDays]

Hi bibletruth,

It's because most End Time Bible experts think the Seals are part of the Tribulation when it really isn't. (I use to believe that also). The Seals are really signs before the Tribulation.

What a breath of fresh air.


Another who understands.

 

[Interplanner]

There is no way to get to the future from Mt24A. It makes Christ sound like spacecase who is not really talking about anything serious that he is talking about with that audience.

PRove that it is future.

If you were there, asking about the temple coming down in your life time, and he said nothing abuot the distant future, why would you think he was speaking of the distant future?

You have to wait til v29 to think of the distant future, because 'only the Father knew when He would enforce the day of judgement of the universe.'

 

[dysert]

Jesus never sends wrath and judgement. Father God does that.

There is some disagreement on that:

For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son (John 5:22)​

And I also disagree with your position that the Seals are opened prior to the Tribulation.

The Tribulation will officially begin at the sounding of the 1st Trumpet.

I think the Tribulation officially begins when the antichrist enters into the covenant with Israel (Dan. 9:27).

 

[Interplanner]

...and Dan 9:27 is about the catastrophe of the mid 1st century Judea. That's 490 years in normal math, stretching perhaps the final week into a generation.

The language of the end of Dan 9 is so close to what happened in the Jewish War, it has some scholars thinking it was written at the time...

 

[7sForDays]

I think the Tribulation officially begins when the antichrist enters into the covenant with Israel (Dan. 9:27).

It does indeed.

But there are some events that indicate it is coming, Christ elaborates on these in Mat/Luke.

Those things he warns of match up with the seals.

 

[Interplanner]

There is no capital T tribulation. He simply meant that the Jewish War was going to feature some of the most unthinkable acts, considering the assumed intelligence of the Jewish people.

It is not part of a "NASA launch sequence" of events. It is vital, direct, current warning about things happening in that generation, and how his church was to stay safe and get out of it alive.

 

[interpreter]

The trumpet prophesies were fulfilled during the great tribulation of WW II. We are now experiencing the 7 last plagues, and currently we are dropping 100-pound hailstones on the 7th head of the beast. Soon the Satanic beast of the Revelation will be so soundly defeated that it will not be heard from for a thousand years!

 

[bibletruth469]

Hi bibletruth, It's because most End Time Bible experts think the Seals are part of the Tribulation when it really isn't. (I use to believe that also). The Seals are really signs before the Tribulation. Jesus never sends wrath and judgement. Father God does that. Jesus opens the Seals to send signs. But after the last Blood Moon to 2018, His return is truly imminent. One big misunderstanding is not knowing what the actual seals represent and interpreting them as wraths and judgments against the church and the world. We both know God will not judge the church (The FirstFruit part of the Church) and we'll be gone before it happens. The 6th Seal is the Blood Moon Event. The Church is raptured and in Heaven by the 7th Seal. The Tribulation will officially begin at the sounding of the 1st Trumpet. Have you had a chance to read about the parallels I wrote about the Olivet Discourse and the 7 Seals? It's reply #4 in thread below. http://www.christianforums.com/t7817594/ ___________________________________ And yes, the sudden destruction of Matt 24 does happen at the midpoint. Matthew 24:3-14 are signs for the FirstFruit of the Church before Jesus returns to rapture His bride. Matthew 24:15-31 are guidance for the FirstFruit of Israel (144,000) to help them get through the tribulation. If you notice, there's a 3.5 year gap between verse 14 and 15. It is because the Church is gone and Israel is in total peace during the first half of the tribulation while her neighboring enemies wage war against each other, and the world experiences tribulation from natural disasters. There's no need for Jesus' guidance during the first half of the tribulation. His main concern are His FirstFruits.

What you are saying makes a lot of sense. I don't think that I completely agree with everything , but I can see it being plausible. What I do find interesting is that the signs that Jesus mentions Matt 24:5-7 match up almost precisely with the 1 st five seals ,rev 6:1-11. I can see a very strong parallel . I haven't noticed this in the scripture before.

If the 1 st five seals were already opened by Christ, are we at the point now where we are waiting for the fulness of the Gentiles to come in at the 5th seal when that last maryter is called home and the rapture happens ? Can it still be a pretribulation rapture ? It does seem to make sense.

Also, the tribulation is a 7 year period which starts the last 70 th week of Daniel. The tribulation ' time frame' does not start at the rapture , but at the confirmation of the peace accord with antichrist, Israel and the many nations starts the tribulation Dan 9:27. I believe that there may be some time,( days, months , years) between when the rapture happens and the peace signing. No one is sure.

I am not one to set dates, however the time frame that you mentioned concerning a generation in Israel's history is interesting . We should not be dogmatic about a certain year though.

Thanks for your great insights!

I need to study and pray for the Holy Spirit to be the ultimate teacher. It is making sense to me. I really believe that pre trib rapture with this theory can be plausible .

 

[Interplanner]

How can you use Mt 24A about the distant future? What reasons do you have for doing that?

 

[iamlamad]

And once again I'll remain confused.. simply because the book itself declares that these are the things which shall be hereafter.. specifically chapters 4 onward.

What or who gives you the right to make them the things which were or the things which are?

You are too smart for that. Go back and look. Does John promise that he will write ONLY of things in the future? Check out chapter 1, where he is told to write of the past, present and future.

Back to chapter 12:1-5. Did you really think that was about the church? Surely not!

I heard it from the Master Himself. He gave me a synopsis of chapter 12. I heard His voice and His words. "Chapter 12 is Me introducing John to the dragon, and in particular what the dragon will be doing in the last half of the week. However, I chose to show John what the dragon did when I was born. Those first five verses were a history lesson for John. Count how many times the dragon is mentioned, including pronouns."

There you have it: the first five verses are about the birth of Christ. They are certainly history and were history to John when He wrote them.

LAMAD

 

[iamlamad]

Once again.. here are a few reason why I believe that all of Revelation 12 (and Rev 4-22 for that matter) pertains to the things which shall be... and not the things which were OR which are..

1. The book specifically says so.

2. Paul tells us that the Day of the Lord shall come as travail upon a woman with child.. this is clearly future.

3. Michael standing up for Daniel's people in the time of the end.

IMO that's pretty strong scriptural support.

Please show me a verse that shows when, from some point on, ALL will be future events. That is, show me if you can.

Did you MISS the part about the dragon taking 1/3 of the angels with him in his fall? Please don't tell me THAT event is future! We all know that happened before Adam was created.

LAMAD

 

[iamlamad]

If the rapture happens at the 6th seal, wouldn't that event time frame be classified as pre- wrath instead of pre- trib? The abomination of desolation happens at mid trib and the Jews are told to run for their lives. Doesn't the sudden destruction of Matt 24 happen at midpoint also? I myself believe pre- trib, but I really don't follow you . Please explain how you can still believe in a pre- trib rapture that happens at the 6 th seal. Thanks

Good questions.

No, this is not true. The "trib" or the 70th week does not begin until the 7th seal. You see, the trib beginning at the first seal is also a myth.

The fleeing at the sight of the abomination takes place at 12:6. Therefore the abomination takes place a few seconds before this verse.

No, the sudden destruction Paul talks about, happens one moment after the rapture event. It is a great, worldwide earthquake caused by the dead in Christ rising. In Revelation, it is the great earthquake at the 6th seal.

To really say, "I AM PRETRIB" one must know WHEN the "trib" really begins - right? Did you notice how Paul mentions the Day of the Lord just three verses after his classic rapture verse? He makes them back to back events. You cannot separate them. The rapture is the trigger for the Day.....actually for the SIGNS for the Day, as seen at the 6th seal. So the rapture happens, then the signs for the day, the sun turning dark, the moon into blood, and then John writes, "the day of His wrath has come." The offical start will be the 7th seal broken in heaven. Then the trumpet judgments begin, which will be His wrath starting during the first half of the week. The 7th trumpet marks the exact midpoint.

LAMAD

 

[iamlamad]

The fifth seal was a continuous, ongoing thing since Christ went to glory after the resurrection. Is it still going on; their "fellows servents" are still dying for Christ"s name - in China, India, Mongolia, S. Korea, N. Korea, Russia, the States, the UK, and so on. When John saw it, it wasn't the beginning; a bunch of the saints had already died, crying out how long before the end. That seal fully breaks when a certain percentage has died, but not before the four horsemen come.

Despite the Plague, Ebola, Lassa, swine flu, etc., the plague coming will be truly global. The wars will be global. The poverty (i.e. global market collapse) will be global. Imperialism on a global scale is happening, and has been. The sixth seal, trump and vial are concurrent events specific to The Enemy, just as he seventh seal, trump and vial are concurrent events specific to Christ's advent.

Yes, Stephen was one of the first martyrs, and then have continued on through the church age. But the end of the church age will make the last or final church age martyr. That is what they are told they must wait for. No, the seal was broken when Jesus ascended. The martyrs will have to wait for the last martyr to die as they died: as church age martyrs.

You are WAY WAY off. The seals are broken first before the scroll can be unrolled to reveal the trumpets and vials. However, John got a preview. NO trumpet can be sounded until all 7 seals are broken and the scroll unrolled to reveal that the trumpet judgements are next. And no vial will be poured out until all 7 trumpets are sounded. This is the way it is written, and this is the order these events will take place. There is ORDER to the book - perfect chronology.

LAMAD

 

[iamlamad]

Hi bibletruth,

It's because most End Time Bible experts think the Seals are part of the Tribulation when it really isn't. (I use to believe that also). The Seals are really signs before the Tribulation. Jesus never sends wrath and judgement. Father God does that. Jesus opens the Seals to send signs. But after the last Blood Moon to 2018, His return is truly imminent.

One big misunderstanding is not knowing what the actual seals represent and interpreting them as wraths and judgments against the church and the world. We both know God will not judge the church (The FirstFruit part of the Church) and we'll be gone before it happens.

The 6th Seal is the Blood Moon Event. The Church is raptured and in Heaven by the 7th Seal. The Tribulation will officially begin at the sounding of the 1st Trumpet.

Have you had a chance to read about the parallels I wrote about the Olivet Discourse and the 7 Seals? It's reply #4 in thread below.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7817594/

___________________________________

And yes, the sudden destruction of Matt 24 does happen at the midpoint.

Matthew 24:3-14 are signs for the FirstFruit of the Church before Jesus returns to rapture His bride.

Matthew 24:15-31 are guidance for the FirstFruit of Israel (144,000) to help them get through the tribulation.

If you notice, there's a 3.5 year gap between verse 14 and 15. It is because the Church is gone and Israel is in total peace during the first half of the tribulation while her neighboring enemies wage war against each other, and the world experiences tribulation from natural disasters.

There's no need for Jesus' guidance during the first half of the tribulation. His main concern are His FirstFruits.

Sorry, the "sudden destruction" is in Paul's description of the rapture event; 1 thes. 5.

I agree, Jesus skips over the first half and goes straight for the abomination that divides the week.

LAMAD

 

[iamlamad]

There is some disagreement on that:

For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son (John 5:22)​

And I also disagree with your position that the Seals are opened prior to the Tribulation.

I think the Tribulation officially begins when the antichrist enters into the covenant with Israel (Dan. 9:27).

That point will be MARKED in heaven by the breaking of the 7th seal - just as the 7th trumpet will mark in heaven the timing of the abomination on earth.

LAMAD

 

[iamlamad]

What you are saying makes a lot of sense. I don't think that I completely agree with everything , but I can see it being plausible. What I do find interesting is that the signs that Jesus mentions Matt 24:5-7 match up almost precisely with the 1 st five seals ,rev 6:1-11. I can see a very strong parallel . I haven't noticed this in the scripture before.

If the 1 st five seals were already opened by Christ, are we at the point now where we are waiting for the fulness of the Gentiles to come in at the 5th seal when that last maryter is called home and the rapture happens ? Can it still be a pretribulation rapture ? It does seem to make sense.

Also, the tribulation is a 7 year period which starts the last 70 th week of Daniel. The tribulation ' time frame' does not start at the rapture , but at the confirmation of the peace accord with antichrist, Israel and the many nations starts the tribulation Dan 9:27. I believe that there may be some time,( days, months , years) between when the rapture happens and the peace signing. No one is sure.

I am not one to set dates, however the time frame that you mentioned concerning a generation in Israel's history is interesting . We should not be dogmatic about a certain year though.

Thanks for your great insights!

I need to study and pray for the Holy Spirit to be the ultimate teacher. It is making sense to me. I really believe that pre trib rapture with this theory can be plausible .

I believe the rapture will be the trigger for first the signs of the Day, then the Day coming soon after. In Revelation the signs are seen at the 6th seal. then His wrath (and the 70th week and the Day of the Lord) will begin AT the breaking of the 7th seal and WITH the first trumpet judgment.

Remember, the martyrs were told they must wait for the last one to be killed as they were killed, as CHURCH AGE martyrs. The very next event is the 6th seal. The rapture will be either moments before the 6th seal, or the first event OF the 6th seal. The great earthquake at the 6th seal will be caused by the dead in Christ rising. (remember Matt. 27: "the earth did quake...and the graves were opened.")

John's chronology is perfect, and what he wrote fits perfectly with what Paul wrote about the rapture.

LAMAD

 

[Interplanner]

Paul mentioned it only once in connection with the devastation of the rebel leader in 2 Thess 2.

 

[Lollerskates]

Yes, Stephen was one of the first martyrs, and then have continued on through the church age. But the end of the church age will make the last or final church age martyr. That is what they are told they must wait for. No, the seal was broken when Jesus ascended. The martyrs will have to wait for the last martyr to die as they died: as church age martyrs.

You are WAY WAY off. The seals are broken first before the scroll can be unrolled to reveal the trumpets and vials. However, John got a preview. NO trumpet can be sounded until all 7 seals are broken and the scroll unrolled to reveal that the trumpet judgements are next. And no vial will be poured out until all 7 trumpets are sounded. This is the way it is written, and this is the order these events will take place. There is ORDER to the book - perfect chronology.

LAMAD

What happens when the sixth and seventh seals, trumps and vials happen? Either something Demonstrative cataclysmic, or the end. Specifically, the 7's are the "end" because it symbolizes Christ's advent, and the events associated with that.The 6's are the Enemies. If there was book that should.be taken mostly spiritually/metaphorically/symbolically is the book of revelations. Seals, Trumpets, and Vials are symbolic words in themselves, with cultural Hebrew.stylistic meanings. If you want a literal, linear tale of the End, and the events associated with it, read Matt 24 to get it from the Horses Mouth, or Daniel 11-12. John "travels space and time" in his prophecy. Revelation is a relatively newly accepted canon book. It was not.originally considered inspired, probably because the depth of symbology John uses.

As far as the first paragraph, we agree besides when the Church Age will end (rapture or not; we have talked about that enough.)