Where are the miracles today? Where is 'the supernatural'?

[redleghunter]

I skimmed it. I'm not really qualified to judge those radiographs of someone's colon. And it is difficult to verify any of the other stories, such as:

Now as to poison:—The native witch-doctor and sorcerer fraternity are our relentless enemies. We expose their frauds, deliver their victims, and rob them by our gospel of both income and prestige. These men are expert poisoners. They think nothing of putting their opposers out of the way by a decoction of kimpengele or mwavi bark, or by any one of a dozen less-known deadly roots and fruits that grow everywhere in these forests. We have evidence that they have tried repeatedly to poison us. One day my chum and I were enjoying a delicious plate of palmnuts that had been brought to us as a present. We had about finished them when a young man ran up excitedly and whispered, "White man, on no account must you eat those palm-nuts, they are poisoned." We had already eaten them, however. So we knelt and committed ourselves to God, claiming the promise of Mark 28 16:17-18 "These signs shall follow them that believe; if they drink any deadly thing it shall not hurt them." We felt absolutely no ill effects from the palm-nuts and for years I hesitated to speak of the incident, lest there had been some mistake, and the nuts had not been poisoned. Then I became very friendly with an ex-medicineman and spirit-consultant. He opened his heart to me with unusual freedom, and when I remarked, "You know that your poisons could not harm us," he laughed as he replied, "Yes, we (witch-doctors) have all found that out. I was the one who sent you the poisoned palm-nuts from Kanguba, but our poisons which kill other people have no effect on you Christians."

There is an obvious test one could perform nowadays under controlled circumstances, but it seems far too hazardous to carry out, so I do not ask for such a test.



Did you mention the website? I missed that. Where's the link?

I did follow up on one of the stories you mention: "Idris Davis carried his doctor issued death certificate around for many years proving God had raised him from the dead. What did the so called experts say? We don't know the doctor so we can't prove its not a forgery."

I wasn't sure if you meant Idris Davies. I tracked down this information that says "There is no death certificate to officially document this miracle, it is likely that before the records were sent to authorities they had realized the mistake in certifying him as dead and did not send his name with the records."

This seems to conflict with your story.

Kingdom Triangle by JP Moreland is well worth the read. The third part of the book addresses miracles. Some of which you will consider "puny" but significant for those on the receiving end. He then accounts the big miracles of Biblical proportion happening in the third world where the Gospel is new or revived in a culture. Not surprising such is happening in the ME too.

The Gospel in the NT came in Word and Power and that is so today. Spiritual regeneration is a miracle in itself. One example of such was John Newton.


You might find the first part of the book interesting as well. It deals with the Christian worldview standing in comparison to relativism.

The second part of the book deals with Christian engagement with evangelism in both preaching and living the Gospel.

As a non-Christian you would benefit from reading Moreland's book IMHO.

 

[rockytopva]

Miracles still happen!

 

[redleghunter]

Miracles still happen!

Thanks!

 

[essentialsaltes]

big miracles of Biblical proportion happening in the third world where the Gospel is new or revived in a culture.

Is there a particular example from the book, that you'd like to share?

 

[redleghunter]

Is there a particular example from the book, that you'd like to share?

Missionary reports of healings and accounts of the dead raised. All of which would be 'a nice story' unless you witnessed first hand.

Biblically speaking, miracles were performed to demonstrate the Word spoken with Power. Not a merry band of magicians doing tricks to prove to skeptics things are real. If you read the scriptures, the skeptics did not get what they sought. Only those who were seeking.

 

[Llewelyn Stevenson]

There is the question of the miracle that actually happened when Jesus said this: the fig tree that died overnight. Was this a "puny" miracle that could be scientifically explained away? I don't know since I'm happy believing what I read and the question is not really mine.

I don't think God has ever responded to idle curiosity but this I know God loves every person in every time and in every place, that is why Jesus died for our sins. Therefore I pray that God would manifest his love. Sort of like this story John 4:47-53.

Do you see how Jesus challenged the man about sign seeking but when the man implored him Jesus' love moved him to answer the dad's request. When we receive the love of God we are surprised at the great lengths he will go to. Man was created to be loved by God.

 

[redleghunter]

There is the question of the miracle that actually happened when Jesus said this: the fig tree that died overnight. Was this a "puny" miracle that could be scientifically explained away? I don't know since I'm happy believing what I read and the question is not really mine.

I don't think God has ever responded to idle curiosity but this I know God loves every person in every time and in every place, that is why Jesus died for our sins. Therefore I pray that God would manifest his love. Sort of like this story John 4:47-53.

Do you see how Jesus challenged the man about sign seeking but when the man implored him Jesus' love moved him to answer the dad's request. When we receive the love of God we are surprised at the great lengths he will go to. Man was created to be loved by God.

Thank you for the post above. You touch on the 'human spirit' factor, which the OP would most likely file in the cabinet marked 'nice to know.' I do however, appreciate it very much.

Based on that, we do have miracles of Christ, big ones where there were 100s if and 1000's in attendance as witnesses. EVEN THEN people still rejected Christ. So I am of the mind that even today if there was such a miracle as the feeding of the 5,000 and it was documented by skeptic scientists and broadcast on MSNBC, and God opened the sky showed His Glory and said, 'I just gave you a miracle believe Me", there would still be a majority of people who reject Him.

Why? It is not, as we are told, the lack of evidence for an uncreated Creator or that He took human form in the Person of Jesus Christ. No there's plenty of evidence. The problem mainly is they don't like what God has to say. They don't like His rules and they don't like that He is in charge. In fact they want to be their own gods with their own rules. And God allows us free will to reject Him. Why? Because real love does not come from compelling people but from a free will to love back.

So yes, an adulterous generation seeks a sign.

As we see in the Gospels, Jesus healed those who believed He could do it. They had faith in the "Object" of the 'doing.' He healed and came to those who were SEEKING HIM.

Isaiah 55:

6 Seek the Lord while He may be found,
Call upon Him while He is near.
7 Let the wicked forsake his way,
And the unrighteous man his thoughts;
Let him return to the Lord,
And He will have mercy on him;
And to our God,
For He will abundantly pardon.

 

[essentialsaltes]

The problem mainly is they don't like what God has to say. They don't like His rules and they don't like that He is in charge. In fact they want to be their own gods with their own rules.

Oh, I see. The lack of miracles is all my fault.

 

[razzelflabben]

The god of the Old Testament performed many obvious miracles, on a literal reading:
The Flood of Noah
Destruction of Sodom & Gomorrah
Lot's Wife turning to salt
Plagues of Egypt, including three days of darkness & the death of the firstborn sons.

And individuals perform 'supernatural' deeds, like pharaoh's men turning their rods into serpents.

In the New Testament, the miracles of Jesus are manifold. And his followers displayed certain spiritual gifts:

Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

I understand there is some controversy about whether these gifts have continued to the present day. Be that as it may, the Bible still seems to be quite clear that believers obtain certain powers or benefits:

Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.

And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.

And he said, The things which are impossible with men are possible with God.

Now perhaps Jesus was exaggerating when he said that faith could move mountains. But faith does not appear to allow even molehills to be moved by command. Or even a mustard seed.

The self-professed miracle workers of today are not very impressive: they babble nonsense, and claims of healings and exorcisms are not very credible.

And if the miracles of the faithful have waned in impressiveness, divine miracles appear to be completely absent today. Although the bible promises signs and wonders, and stars falling from the sky, the best that can be said is that it hasn't happened yet. Compared to the active days of the Old Testament, there seems to be no sign at all of god interfering with the natural order of things.

Why are there no miracles or supernatural events 'today'? Let's keep the focus of the discussion on the past 100 years. Who has moved a mountain?

First, let me say that I don't recall a Biblical story in which a literal mountain was moved, meaning it is figurative.

Second, the power is still there, we just have no idea what it is for or how to use it as scripture instructs and much of that has to do with lack of teaching in the church. Let's take one example to show what I mean. James 5...if any are sick among you...now, look at the requirements given for the sick to be healed. Only the elders are called, these are men and woman who are dedicated to study of the word and prayer. Second, they are to confess one to another, this is both the sick and the elders. A cleansing so to speak. This is a service of confession and repentance. Then we anoint. The importance of this is right on topic, because it is the fervent prayer of a righteous man that availeth much. IOW's we offer prayers in sin, both the prayer is sinful and we are living in unrepentant sins, an unrighteousness that scripture says turns God's ear deaf and yet we complain because God did not answer the way we wanted. Righteousness is vital to effective prayers.

Another big hinderance is that presume to know what God wants to do, in the case of healing, we presume that God wants everyone physically well. But this physical healing is not a promise of God, in fact, when Christ entered into His healing ministry and gave the gift to others, it was for the purpose of showing that He was the MEssiah, the promised one. Today, what purpose does the healing serve if no one turns to Christ in the process?

Well that is two huge problems...thanks for the question

 

[essentialsaltes]

for the sick to be healed. Only the elders are called, these are men and woman who are dedicated to study of the word and prayer. Second, they are to confess one to another, this is both the sick and the elders. A cleansing so to speak. This is a service of confession and repentance. Then we anoint.

A typical filmed Christian miracle service shows people pulled from the audience, their afflictions are described, and then the preacher touches them and they are miraculously healed. This does not seem to follow the pattern you describe. What's your take on them? Are they not miracles? Or are they miracles (and somehow they meet the requirements set in James)? Or are they miracles (but they don't meet the requirements set in James)?

 

[razzelflabben]

A typical filmed Christian miracle service shows people pulled from the audience, their afflictions are described, and then the preacher touches them and they are miraculously healed. This does not seem to follow the pattern you describe. What's your take on them? Are they not miracles? Or are they miracles (and somehow they meet the requirements set in James)? Or are they miracles (but they don't meet the requirements set in James)?

Most have been evidenced as fake. Not sure what else to tell you, God requires righteousness and that very same word says that in the end times there will come those who are false teachers but preform signs and wonders and miracles. In fact, I am very cautious of anyone or anything that is contrary to scripture for many reasons, not the least of which is false teachers who come in sheeps clothing and a devil that poses as an angel of light. I prefer to make sure that I am not one of the deceived, rather than following along because it sounds and feels good. Just my personal two cents.

 

[essentialsaltes]

Most have been evidenced as fake. Not sure what else to tell you ... Just my personal two cents.

No, that's great! I just wanted your opinion, since you seem to be coming at this from a different direction from some others.

 

[razzelflabben]

No, that's great! I just wanted your opinion, since you seem to be coming at this from a different direction from some others.

Since it is common on the forum for people to inflate things that are slightly different, let me add something to my opinion. I DO still believe there are miracles, I have seen some and lived out some. My opinion does not remove miracles from the life of the believer, but puts them in line with what scripture really does testify about them.

 

[redleghunter]

Oh, I see. The lack of miracles is all my fault.

LOL, you forgot one:

“Can the blind lead the blind? Will they not both fall into the ditch?"

In the baseball analogy above I have to ask, what type of baseball is shown in 'conventional logic?' I would argue it is not a baseball but a larger spherical object like a softball. Why are you misleading us?

On the 'religious logic' portion, how bizarre. But funny any way.

 

[redleghunter]

No, that's great! I just wanted your opinion, since you seem to be coming at this from a different direction from some others.

Indeed I would say from your OP and comments you need to break some old stereotypes. JMHO. Like this one:

 

[essentialsaltes]

In the baseball analogy above I have to ask, what type of baseball is shown in 'conventional logic?' I would argue it is not a baseball but a larger spherical object like a softball. Why are you misleading us?

Maybe you're right. Let us study the sphere in question, and figure out the answer.

But we have no miracles to study. Instead, in some cases, all we get is excuses why "it wouldn't even matter if I did show you a miracle which I totally could but I'm not going to because it won't do any good because you want to have sex with men or vote Green or something."

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Yeah... let me just suggest that cartoonists who misspell atheist probably don't have the most cogent ideas to present. I mean take a good hard look at the 'standard logic' side.

 

[redleghunter]

Maybe you're right. Let us study the sphere in question, and figure out the answer.

But we have no miracles to study. Instead, in some cases, all we get is excuses why "it wouldn't even matter if I did show you a miracle which I totally could but I'm not going to because it won't do any good because you want to have sex with men or vote Green or something."



Yeah... let me just suggest that cartoonists who misspell atheist probably don't have the most cogent ideas to present. I mean take a good hard look at the 'standard logic' side.

You can study plenty of eyewitness accounts of miracles.

You can also read about what fellow skeptics believed and actually honestly investigated.


The Greenleaf book is pretty good. Harvard Law review and such.

 

[essentialsaltes]

You can study plenty of eyewitness accounts of miracles.

View attachment 167756

Yeah, that's part of my original post. There's lots of miracles in the bible. The question is where are they today?

 

[redleghunter]

Yeah, that's part of my original post. There's lots of miracles in the bible. The question is where are they today?

I believe some have mentioned third world nations. Not the nicest places to visit but alas that is where the Gospel is reaching new hearts.

 

[essentialsaltes]

I believe some have mentioned third world nations. Not the nicest places to visit but alas that is where the Gospel is reaching new hearts.

Yes, third world nations have been mentioned. But not much in the way of specific miracles.

It's sort of like the opposite of the old joke about the drunk looking for his keys under the streetlight. Instead, since there are no miracles under streetlight of the first world and its cameras and drones, it is suggested that miracles occur off in the third world, out in the dark, where little is known for certain.