Where are the miracles today? Where is 'the supernatural'?

[essentialsaltes]

Go to a pentecostal or charismatic church and decide for yourself.

Why? Are the ones where miracles occur hiding their light under a bushel?

 

[AV1611VET]

Why? Are the ones where miracles occur hiding their light under a bushel?

Ya ... pentecostal & charismatic churches are hidden deep in the forests of America.

 

[essentialsaltes]

The ones where verifiable miracles occur seem to be hiding. Or do you know of one?

 

[AV1611VET]

The ones where verifiable miracles occur seem to be hiding.

I know.

Q: Where's the best place to hide from an atheist?
A: In a church, of course.

 

[Llewelyn Stevenson]

I am open to any non-puny miracles you'd like to talk about.

You deliberately missed the point to my question. What you consider puny I do not.

Secondly I have spoken about miracles and you have refused to consider them. I have even told you where you can get witness accounts of them and yet it appears that you haven't even bothered to look.

My life is full of miracles that began with me being healed as a baby through faith in the name of Jesus as a baby, but then you want what you consider "credible proof" and that I don't have if you discount witnesses on any basis. You call these "puny miracles" but I am not so insulting to God and am grateful for everyone of them. You on the other hand choose to vilify God [don't worry, his answer to you is... meh].

Did you read Willie Burton's booklet titled Signs Following? Did you go to the CFAN site and obtain the videos of the two miracles I mentioned [remember videos were suggested as possible credible truth]? These all took place in the last hundred years - another criteria met. Unfortunately I did not keep the news report of the Ethiopian evangelist who raised the dead lady, and it happened in the last decade so I cannot remember the channel it was on.

 

[essentialsaltes]

Did you read

I skimmed it. I'm not really qualified to judge those radiographs of someone's colon. And it is difficult to verify any of the other stories, such as:

Now as to poison:—The native witch-doctor and sorcerer fraternity are our relentless enemies. We expose their frauds, deliver their victims, and rob them by our gospel of both income and prestige. These men are expert poisoners. They think nothing of putting their opposers out of the way by a decoction of kimpengele or mwavi bark, or by any one of a dozen less-known deadly roots and fruits that grow everywhere in these forests. We have evidence that they have tried repeatedly to poison us. One day my chum and I were enjoying a delicious plate of palmnuts that had been brought to us as a present. We had about finished them when a young man ran up excitedly and whispered, "White man, on no account must you eat those palm-nuts, they are poisoned." We had already eaten them, however. So we knelt and committed ourselves to God, claiming the promise of Mark 28 16:17-18 "These signs shall follow them that believe; if they drink any deadly thing it shall not hurt them." We felt absolutely no ill effects from the palm-nuts and for years I hesitated to speak of the incident, lest there had been some mistake, and the nuts had not been poisoned. Then I became very friendly with an ex-medicineman and spirit-consultant. He opened his heart to me with unusual freedom, and when I remarked, "You know that your poisons could not harm us," he laughed as he replied, "Yes, we (witch-doctors) have all found that out. I was the one who sent you the poisoned palm-nuts from Kanguba, but our poisons which kill other people have no effect on you Christians."

There is an obvious test one could perform nowadays under controlled circumstances, but it seems far too hazardous to carry out, so I do not ask for such a test.

Did you go to the CFAN site

Did you mention the website? I missed that. Where's the link?

I did follow up on one of the stories you mention: "Idris Davis carried his doctor issued death certificate around for many years proving God had raised him from the dead. What did the so called experts say? We don't know the doctor so we can't prove its not a forgery."

I wasn't sure if you meant Idris Davies. I tracked down this information that says "There is no death certificate to officially document this miracle, it is likely that before the records were sent to authorities they had realized the mistake in certifying him as dead and did not send his name with the records."

This seems to conflict with your story.

 

[Llewelyn Stevenson]

Did you mention the website? I missed that. Where's the link?

I must have forgotten to reply when I posted. I'm sorry. I went back but couldn't find it.

http://www.cfan.org.au/avmain/dvd.html

The original link was their Brittish office.

I wasn't sure if you meant Idris Davies.

Yes, sorry for the misspell but it appears that is the same Idris from the names mentioned at the bottom. I was a young child and I am relying on the witness of my parents who told me he had the death certificate. Is it possible the doctor gave it to his parents since reporting the death was no longer an issue? I wouldn't know. Maybe somebody in his family knows. All I know is my parents told me he had the death certificate. I did recognize them from the photograph on the blog site. Part 3 I think it was.

 

[essentialsaltes]

I must have forgotten to reply when I posted. I'm sorry. I went back but couldn't find it.

http://www.cfan.org.au/avmain/dvd.html

Alas, I don't feel compelled to spend money on their videos. But I note that other Christians do not seem to think much of this miracle.

Is it possible the doctor gave it to his parents since reporting the death was no longer an issue? I wouldn't know. Maybe somebody in his family knows. All I know is my parents told me he had the death certificate.

Yes, and you told me that he had the death certificate, but there seems to be no trace of the death certificate.

 

[Llewelyn Stevenson]

Alas, I don't feel compelled to spend money on their videos. But I note that other Christians do not seem to think much of this miracle.

I cannot comment on what other Christians think. That was one of the miracles, I actually pointed to two.

Yes, and you told me that he had the death certificate, but there seems to be no trace of the death certificate.

Yes, I did and I have no reason to disbelieve my parents. I might ask the sons if there is any trace. I often say should my dad have had such an item it would be my most treasured possession, my brothers could have the rest. My dad reassured me that he had seen the death certificate. As I say, I have no reason to disbelieve him and I'm happy with that.

 

[essentialsaltes]

Close, but no cigar.

The Catholic Diocese of Salt Lake City says a bleeding host reported after a Communion wafer turned water red was caused by bread mold, not a miracle.

 

[AV1611VET]

Close, but no cigar.

The Catholic Diocese of Salt Lake City says a bleeding host reported after a Communion wafer turned water red was caused by bread mold, not a miracle.

Who puts communion wafers in water?

 

[HitchSlap]

You deliberately missed the point to my question. What you consider puny I do not.

Secondly I have spoken about miracles and you have refused to consider them. I have even told you where you can get witness accounts of them and yet it appears that you haven't even bothered to look.

My life is full of miracles that began with me being healed as a baby through faith in the name of Jesus as a baby, but then you want what you consider "credible proof" and that I don't have if you discount witnesses on any basis. You call these "puny miracles" but I am not so insulting to God and am grateful for everyone of them. You on the other hand choose to vilify God [don't worry, his answer to you is... meh].

Did you read Willie Burton's booklet titled Signs Following? Did you go to the CFAN site and obtain the videos of the two miracles I mentioned [remember videos were suggested as possible credible truth]? These all took place in the last hundred years - another criteria met. Unfortunately I did not keep the news report of the Ethiopian evangelist who raised the dead lady, and it happened in the last decade so I cannot remember the channel it was on.

Ok, so sick people sometimes get well. Color me unimpressed.
Now, healing an amputee, that would be cool.

 

[Sketcher]

Reports tend to be out on the edge of the mission field. Being as 69% of polled Americans claim a form of Christianity, the case can be made that we are not on the edge of the mission field. There are exceptions, of course.

A friend of mine at church spent some years growing up in another state, and had a neighbor lady. She was wheelchair bound. She had received prayer, and had been praying, for healing. One day, it actually spontaneously happened; she started walking, and continued walking, and went to the doctor, everything checked out. Whether this was divine providence (which is when God works within the laws of nature to his glory), or a proper miracle (which is when God temporarily breaks or suspends the laws of nature to his glory), I am not sure. Either way, to God be the glory.

Well, why doesn't he perform nifty little magic tricks for the faithful, who might capture cell phone video of it?

If you saw a "nifty little trick" on Youtube that people ascribed to the work of God, would you honestly believe it?

 

[Llewelyn Stevenson]

Well I can only witness to the things that have happened to me: the "puny" miracles I have experienced in my life. Quite frankly I do not need impressing and do not consider these miracles in the way that those discouraging faith do. I am delighted for what I have received and thank God for every one.

In 1987 I quit my job and left Sydney for Forbes to spread the gospel. I could barely afford to move the meagre furniture I had but stepped out in faith believing the words of Jesus, "Anyone who leaves houses or lands for my sake and the gospels will receive an hundredfold and everlasting life in the world to come."

Having recently migrated from Zimbabwe I did not own a home and lived with my parents in Penshurst NSW.

Arriving in Forbes we lived with my brother in a two bed room flat for a couple of months when we were asked by a complete stranger to baby sit their son's home while he was in rehabilitation. This was to be for three months. I began to apply for work.

Since my experience lay in stores and the supermarket I applied to the local owner of the IGA who apologized saying nothing was available. I picked up casual work but much of it was disappointing. In the meantime a church began to grow around me.

My brother was friends with a farmer who I wanted to witness to and I went to visit him. He was harvesting pumpkins and the only way I could hold a conversation with him was to harvest pumpkins alongside him. My witness was unsuccessful but unknown to me he was the brother-in-law of the IGA supermarket owner.

When I first arrived in Forbes a walk to the shops took me past the rear of the home I now live in. As I walked past one day I prayed, "Lord, I'd like to own that property."

The supermarket owner was so impressed with the things he heard of me he sought me out to employ me.

I started work for him just before Christmas 1987.

At the beginning of 1988 the supermarket owner approached me to rent a house his dad-in-law owned since the old man needed to go to special aged care. Within weeks of our moving in he asked me to make an offer for that house: it was the very property I had asked the Lord for. I made an offer but apologized that I did not have the deposit required to borrow the necessary funds. He gave me the deposit and paid all the necessary legal fees! No strings attached.

In his own words, "I did it out of the kindness of my heart."

This may be a puny miracle to some but it is a great blessing to this poor migrant who had not been in Australia long enough to establish himself. Not only that but Jesus words had proved true and God had answered my prayer.

In 1997 I had been believing with a farmer for a miracle that would have certainly impressed, however it was not to be as the farmer himself turned his back on the request believing me to be a heretic. We were praying for a crop where none had been planted due to a number of years of misfortune in his practice.

A certain minister in town scorned at me asking, "Do you think God is just going to send someone to drop bags of groceries on your front veranda?"

I replied, "Yes, if the need should arise."

He laughed at me yet only months later he was dropping groceries on my front veranda to help me through a period of unemployment unsolicited! We were very grateful as it took some pressure off.

I am sure that none of this impresses you but I know that it is because God loves the world so much that these things happen, and they most often happen through prayer and faith.

All I can tell you is that God loves you and that he will do for you what he has done for me - even more if you will only believe in him.

 

[essentialsaltes]

If you saw a "nifty little trick" on Youtube that people ascribed to the work of God, would you honestly believe it?

First, please note that the 'nifty little trick' was me quoting the other person, not my own coinage.

Certainly I've seen many fake UFO videos, so just seeing a clip on YouTube may not be instantly convincing, but there are experts who can judge whether video has been manipulated, and I would rely on their expertise. As an example, there's this video of an angel/superhuman/alien saving someone from a car accident.

Is this a miracle? At first, some people feel really certain - "This is an Angel, not a man." But then they issue an update: "My apologies to all, including myself, who fell for this hoax." But if you hunt around ... it's easy to find people who are still real believers in this.

So Christians can certainly see through hoaxes, too. But where are the super-convincing ones? Where's your best stuff?

 

[Sketcher]

First, please note that the 'nifty little trick' was me quoting the other person, not my own coinage.

Certainly I've seen many fake UFO videos, so just seeing a clip on YouTube may not be instantly convincing, but there are experts who can judge whether video has been manipulated, and I would rely on their expertise. As an example, there's this video of an angel/superhuman/alien saving someone from a car accident.

Is this a miracle? At first, some people feel really certain - "This is an Angel, not a man." But then they issue an update: "My apologies to all, including myself, who fell for this hoax." But if you hunt around ... it's easy to find people who are still real believers in this.

So Christians can certainly see through hoaxes, too. But where are the super-convincing ones? Where's your best stuff?

More to the point of my question: People are so used to fake stuff on YouTube like this, that they will dismiss it out of hand, often before even watching the video. Are you honestly open-minded enough to consider that something someone might capture would be real? And what corroborating evidence, if any, would you require before you believe?

Concerning the "best stuff," like I said, most of those reports are at the edge of the mission field.

 

[essentialsaltes]

Are you honestly open-minded enough to consider that something someone might capture would be real? And what corroborating evidence, if any, would you require before you believe?

I already said "there are experts who can judge whether video has been manipulated, and I would rely on their expertise."

Concerning the "best stuff," like I said, most of those reports are at the edge of the mission field.

Why is that, do you imagine? Surely there are some places in Europe, or even America, that could use some missionary work.

 

[essentialsaltes]

"Controversial evangelist Todd Bentley claims nearly 500,000 Muslims attended a Christian crusade in Karachi, Pakistan, where 290,000 people turned to Christ, three people – including a young boy – got raised from the dead, and he has the video to prove it.
...
"We do have, pray for us, because we do have about 50 hours of full HD television footage of everything coming and we will be releasing the TV footage of all the resurrections and all the preaching. There is actually gonna be some amazing footage coming for the glory of God," said Bentley of his claim in a video posted to YouTube on Monday."

So we have a video of him saying he has a video. I guess we'll see.

 

[Sketcher]

Why is that, do you imagine? Surely there are some places in Europe, or even America, that could use some missionary work.

God's preference on where and how to reveal himself. Beyond that, I can only speculate, and speculating on God's motives does not do him justice.

 

[essentialsaltes]

Something like the God of the gaps, you posit a God of the shadows, hiding from the bright lights and cameras. Cameras and light continue to spread more widely, and will ultimately reach everywhere. Either your God will show up... Or he won't.