Where are the current ripples from Noah's Flood?

[Zaha Torte]

What? How does that change physics?

I don't know exactly how an unspecified period of Time on the Earth when all matter was not subjected to decay would affect how we measure these things today.

(We have measurements from the distant Universe that indicate that physics hasn't changed from object that existed billions of years ago.)

There has always been and will always be Fallen spheres in God's Kingdom - because His works had no beginning and will have no end.

God operates according to Law - unchanging and eternal - this Law includes Physics - yet we can only see the tip of this iceberg. There are Laws we are unaware of.

Just like how we can get the International Space Station into Low Earth Orbit. Did we do this by defying the Laws of Physics or by utilizing them?

It may seem like it is just floating out there in defiance of Law to those who do not understand or who are unaware.

Was the glory that the Earth enjoyed before the Fall in defiance of Law? Is forgiveness of sin defiance of Law? Does Mercy rob Justice?

Anyways - the fact that we can see other Fallen spheres - that we are allowed to see only those things of the same Order as our world - does not mean that there are no other Orders - Higher Orders - that we cannot discern.

I'm not sure why you are talking about the "Garden".

The Earth and all things upon it were different than they are today when they were first created. They were of a Higher Order. Operating by Higher Law.

Your claim the Earth might have reacted differently in "the flood", but "the flood" was hundreds of years after "the fall", not before it.

Not all of the effects of the Fall were immediate. Adam lived to be almost thousand years old - Noah as well.

Sin and its effects were immediate - but the physical changes were gradual - and there is no way I could know what all that would entail.

Even if physics changed with "the fall", that would not make it different than now in the time of "the flood".

Things were definitely different then.

 

[Zaha Torte]

There's no reason not to.

The Word of God claims that the Earth and all things upon it were different than today both before and after the Fall.

Because it would be a flood but one writ large.

A miracle of God. No reason to assume it was like any other flood or that the Earth then operated as it does now.

Why?

If God could be proven to anyone - regardless of their level of faith or alignment with God's will - then coming to know of Him without a shadow of any doubt would damn them forever because they would have no justification when they commit sin.

To sin is to knowingly and willfully violate God's Law - in mortality we are behind the veil - commanded to live by faith not sure knowledge - to protect us from the effects of the Law.

Mortality is a period of Time given us to live and operate without knowledge of the Truth - to see what we will decide to do with what we are given - to test our integrity - and the effects of the Law are suspended - allowing us this probationary state.

Think of it as a childhood - a period when we can learn and grow and come into our own - a period when we can make mistakes without being held to the highest standards of accountability.

Coming to know God means that we are fully accountable - that there would be no justification for sin - because there is no doubt mingled with our faith - we live by a sure knowledge - we would know - and unless you are prepared to live a life without sin - you would be damned forever by that knowledge.

The moment you committed a sin after having receive this knowledge would bring the full effects of the Law upon you - no means of forgiveness.

Probably so, but the usage of the Bible to talk about Earth's history is very suspect and poorly done all around.

The witness of the Holy Spirit is surer than the witnesses recounted in the Bible. You can come to know for yourself.

The Bible is a useful source of certain matters in history - like the Fall and the Flood.

And that makes no sense again. Is it wrong to study the Earth, God's own creation, to try and find a closer understanding of God? Does the Earth not proclaim the glory of God?

There is nothing wrong with studying the Earth - without or without faith in God.

However - if you have no faith in God - then nothing on Earth will convince you that God exists at all. Only the witness of the Holy Spirit can do that.

 

[Warden_of_the_Storm]

The Word of God claims that the Earth and all things upon it were different than today both before and after the Fall.

The Word of God, as written and dictated by fallible and unknowing mortal men. God's actual creation on the other hand shows your claim to not be that at all.

A miracle of God. No reason to assume it was like any other flood or that the Earth then operated as it does now.

Miracles explain everything and thus they explain nothing.

If God could be proven to anyone - regardless of their level of faith or alignment with God's will - then coming to know of Him without a shadow of any doubt would damn them forever because they would have no justification when they commit sin.

To sin is to knowingly and willfully violate God's Law - in mortality we are behind the veil - commanded to live by faith not sure knowledge - to protect us from the effects of the Law.

Mortality is a period of Time given us to live and operate without knowledge of the Truth - to see what we will decide to do with what we are given - to test our integrity - and the effects of the Law are suspended - allowing us this probationary state.

Think of it as a childhood - a period when we can learn and grow and come into our own - a period when we can make mistakes without being held to the highest standards of accountability.

Coming to know God means that we are fully accountable - that there would be no justification for sin - because there is no doubt mingled with our faith - we live by a sure knowledge - we would know - and unless you are prepared to live a life without sin - you would be damned forever by that knowledge.

The moment you committed a sin after having receive this knowledge would bring the full effects of the Law upon you - no means of forgiveness.

Hard disagree.

The witness of the Holy Spirit is surer than the witnesses recounted in the Bible. You can come to know for yourself.

The Bible is a useful source of certain matters in history - like the Fall and the Flood.

Very hard disagree.

There is nothing wrong with studying the Earth - without or without faith in God.

However - if you have no faith in God - then nothing on Earth will convince you that God exists at all. Only the witness of the Holy Spirit can do that.

This is really the only bit I'll agree on.

 

[Hans Blaster]

I don't know exactly how an unspecified period of Time on the Earth when all matter was not subjected to decay would affect how we measure these things today.

That doesn't even enter into the same universe as explaining how "the fall" changed the laws of physics.

There has always been and will always be Fallen spheres in God's Kingdom - because His works had no beginning and will have no end.

Which one is the distant galaxy in? (And I thought the beginning of our universe was one of those points you guys claimed as matching your text to our reality.)

God operates according to Law - unchanging and eternal - this Law includes Physics - yet we can only see the tip of this iceberg. There are Laws we are unaware of.

So now the laws (and that would include physics) are unchanging. How does this match with changing the laws or constants of physics. (You can't even be constant within a single post.)

Just like how we can get the International Space Station into Low Earth Orbit. Did we do this by defying the Laws of Physics or by utilizing them? It may seem like it is just floating out there in defiance of Law to those who do not understand or who are unaware.

Seriously, this is embarrassingly misinformed. If you had ever seen it in the sky you would not call it "floating".

Was the glory that the Earth enjoyed before the Fall in defiance of Law? Is forgiveness of sin defiance of Law?

I don't care. THat's just your theology. Got nothing to do with the world I live in.

Does Mercy rob Justice?

Yes. That is the point of mercy.

Anyways - the fact that we can see other Fallen spheres - that we are allowed to see only those things of the same Order as our world - does not mean that there are no other Orders - Higher Orders - that we cannot discern.

The Earth and all things upon it were different than they are today when they were first created. They were of a Higher Order. Operating by Higher Law.

This makes no sense at all (and neither does you capitalization, only "Earth" should be capitalized inside these sentences).

Not all of the effects of the Fall were immediate. Adam lived to be almost thousand years old - Noah as well.

Sin and its effects were immediate - but the physical changes were gradual - and there is no way I could know what all that would entail.

Raw, unevidenced assertion.

Things were definitely different then.

And so is this.

 

[BT3241]

My advice don't read it it will make you see things in a whole new light I do not recommended it.I just wanted to bring it up as a possible reason I wish I didn't now. I won't discuss it.

 

[Warden_of_the_Storm]

My advice don't read it it will make you see things in a whole new light I do not recommended it.I just wanted to bring it up as a possible reason I wish I didn't now. I won't discuss it.

Who are you talking to and what about?

 

[AV1611VET]

The Word of God, as written and dictated by fallible and unknowing mortal men.

No ... this word of God:

1 Thessalonians 2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.

 

[Warden_of_the_Storm]

No ... this word of God:

1 Thessalonians 2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.

As written and dictated by fallible and unknowing mortal men.

 

[AV1611VET]

As written and dictated by fallible and unknowing mortal men.

Just think if God would have written it!

Oh, wait!

2 Peter 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

 

[Warden_of_the_Storm]

Just think if God would have written it!

Oh, wait!

2 Peter 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

As written and dictated by fallible and unknowing mortal men.

 

[Astrid]

As written and dictated by fallible and unknowing mortal men.

Then “ interpreted” by whoever to mean whatever.

 

[AV1611VET]

As written and dictated by fallible and unknowing mortal men.

With God superintending.

I don't know a lick of algebra, but with my wife looking over my shoulder, I can do the basic math stuff, and she can make sure the formulas are correct.

Remember:

The quality goes in, before the name goes on.

 

[AV1611VET]

Then “interpreted” by whoever to mean whatever.

First things first.

Let's understand Who wrote it, before we get to those who interpret it.

 

[Warden_of_the_Storm]

With God superintending.

I don't know a lick of algebra, but with my wife looking over my shoulder, I can do the basic math stuff, and she can make sure the formulas are correct.

Remember:

The quality goes in, before the name goes on.

And yet there's a LOT of noticeable errors in it that an omniscient supervisor would surely have picked up on.

But this isn't really the thread to get into Biblical inerrancy.

 

[AV1611VET]

Then “ interpreted” by whoever to mean whatever.

And yet there's a LOT of noticeable errors in it that an omniscient supervisor would surely have picked up on.

Anyone see the irony in Warden's statement?

How do you know, Warden, that your "noticeable errors" aren't misinterpretations instead?

But this isn't really the thread to get into Biblical inerrancy.

Or Biblical authorship.

 

[Warden_of_the_Storm]

Anyone see the irony in Warden's statement?

How do you know, Warden, that your "noticeable errors" aren't misinterpretations instead?

Not getting into this. Start a challenge thread on it if you want, though maybe not in the Physical and Life sciences forum.

 

[AV1611VET]

Not getting into this. Start a challenge thread on it if you want, though maybe not in the Physical and Life sciences forum.

I'll pass.

I've made my point.

 

[Warden_of_the_Storm]

I'll pass.

I've made my point.

You really didn't, but we'll pretend you did if it makes you feel better.

 

[Astrid]

We have two recent hurricanes as examples of the damage that rushing water can do. And by comparison, they would have been tiny compared to a Noah Flood. Yes, after a certain depth I can see more of a bathtub sort of filling. But not at first where it would be a gush. But than there's the drainage effect afterwards. You just can't have that much water on the face of the earth with out evidence left behind.

What drainage? During rain?

 

[AV1611VET]

What drainage? During rain?

If the flood was just a local one, what was the retaining wall that kept the waters in?