When was the Book of Revelation written?

Dorothy Mae said:

Ah, a work of fiction then.

Click to expand...

Not fiction, but hard proof. Many pages of actual quotations from numerous ancient writers making clear statements of exactly what I stated.

Dorothy Mae said:

I agree. It seemed kind to say "borderline." Dispensalionalism has also had very bad effects on the church as it embraced it. Taught the church to wait for the "rapture" and do little among other evils.

Click to expand...

The Irvingites, one of the earliest Dispensationalist groups said that the "rapture" would be in mid 1833. They actually gathered together for the event.

Dorothy Mae said:

You didn’t ask what I believe.

David, I answed too quickly. Please read my answe to this as i disagreed with me. My apologies. I was thinking of something else. Yes, of course Rome was the kingdom mentioned different that all the others. But I do not see the Catholics playing an role in the matter nor Constantine. The empire was not moved to the east. There was an explansion but it still was centered in Rome, Italy under Constatine. I think you are trying to make it fit. I do not see the Papacy playing any role at all in fulfillment of scripture.

Click to expand...

Actually it wasn't centered on Rome. No one ruled from Rome except the papcy till 1870. Capitals: Milan, Ravenna, Mediolanum Never from Rome. The only Roman Emperor to rule from Rome was the pope,till his dominions were taken away in 1870, and who has millions more in his kingdom than the Empire ever did.

David Kent said:

The Irvingites, one of the earliest Dispensationalist groups said that the "rapture" would be in mid 1833. They actually gathered together for the event.

Click to expand...

I’ve heard of this in the last few hundred years. Pretty sad outcome as Jesus didn’t show up.

David Kent said:

The Irvingites, one of the earliest Dispensationalist groups said that the "rapture" would be in mid 1833. They actually gathered together for the event.

Click to expand...

One of the most common epithets John Nelson Darby would hurl against his foes was to accuse them of "Irvingism." He despised Irving, and everything he stood for. People accuse him of getting his ideas from Irving, but he actually got them from Lewis Way and William Lowth.

David Kent said:

Actually it wasn't centered on Rome. No one ruled from Rome except the papcy till 1870. Capitals: Milan, Ravenna, Mediolanum Never from Rome. The only Roman Emperor to rule from Rome was the pope,till his dominions were taken away in 1870, and who has millions more in his kingdom than the Empire ever did.

Click to expand...

ALL of the Caesars ruled from Rome.

David Kent said:

Actually it wasn't centered on Rome. No one ruled from Rome except the papcy till 1870. Capitals: Milan, Ravenna, Mediolanum Never from Rome. The only Roman Emperor to rule from Rome was the pope,till his dominions were taken away in 1870, and who has millions more in his kingdom than the Empire ever did.

Click to expand...

I’ll tell you what, I’ll look into this more as I have time. Is that fair?

Biblewriter said:

ALL of the Caesars ruled from Rome.

Click to expand...

Just shows how much you know about history.

Dorothy Mae said:

I am puzzled why you provide what others say the ancient documents say. Why don't you say what they say with supporting quotes? Not quotes of others who talk about them, but the real deal.
You did not prove anything. Frankly speaking, you bring your whole position into question by not recognizing that you offer no proof at all. Do you know everything Irenaeus wrote including lost documents? Do you realize that people do sometimes make up stuff? Nowhis, if it occured, releases the other men from getting their stuff from Irenaeus, but the reliabity has not increased by having no supporting documents including Irenaeus. t

In any case, your whole position rests on what others say. That is it. And some of what they say was way off. It is easy to think men in the past where somehow closer to the truth by living within centures of the events. I am not sure that we would see any old American as totally reliable as to the events in 1776 just because we are living within 300 years of the events and we have better access to information than men did in 300 AD.

Click to expand...

Dorothy, I think you only say that because youwant to prove, that the book was written pre AD 70. Preterism depends on it being pre AD70, and there is no historical evidence s far as I have seen that supports that, However you reject the evidence that says it was post AD 70 becouse it doesn't fit your therories. That is dishonest. For historicism and futurism it dosn't make any difference whether it is pre or post, both stand or fall on other matters. Remember well that historicism is the only teaching that has not been promoted by the RCC.

Dorothy Mae said:

I’ll tell you what, I’ll look into this more as I have time. Is that fair?

Click to expand...

Absolutely.
The last emperor was overthtown at Ravena having fled from Mediolanum the seat of the Western Roman Empire before being overtaken and deposed by Odacer

Mediolanum is the ancient name of Milan

https://www.reddit.com/r/papertowns/comments/71z4di/mediolanum_in_the_4th_century_ad_capital_of_the/

David Kent said:

Dorothy, I think you only say that because youwant to prove, that the book was written pre AD 70. Preterism depends on it being pre AD70, and there is no historical evidence s far as I have seen that supports that, However you reject the evidence that says it was post AD 70 becouse it doesn't fit your therories. That is dishonest. For historicism and futurism it dosn't make any difference whether it is pre or post, both stand or fall on other matters. Remember well that historicism is the only teaching that has not been promoted by the RCC.

Click to expand...

I am surprised you say that. There is no historical evidence it was written later that looked to me like evidence. The writings of men who knew as much or as little as we know is not evidence. And from what I read, it is actually only guy who said it and the others quoted him. Same guy who said Jesus was 50 when he died or something similar. There is historical evidence for later and what is worse, the internal evidence speaks clearly of pre 70AD.

I know you favor later and the events of Rome and the RCC to be the fulfillment. The problem is none of that had any signficance for the Kingdom of God. None of it. So why would Jesus go to the trouble of telling Daniel John events in history that have no significance for him. The events in 70 AD and the tremendous persecution would have great signficance for the plans of God. The Christians were about to be almost wiped out and were told that this was going to happen. This gave them courage as the end would not be an elimination of the believers altogether. And that is only one element. John was told he was going to be again testifying before others. When he was 90, he could hardly walk. The persecution on the cities came and was real. So frankly speaking, the historical evidence shows pre 70 AD, that is the evidence of history with the 3+ years of persecution under Nero who was the worst tyrant in all of history. When I heard this position, the whole book of Revelation opened up to me and I understood so much of it and it was a great blessing. It fits into God interacting in human history beautifully. What happened with the Pope and the fall of Rome was insigificant and affects no one told. The fall of the Jewish system of worship is gone forever and the temple with its sacrifices will never be rebuilt with a seal sitting on top of its place on earth. This is significant in the kingdom of God.

Lastly, it would be a lot earier if you did not insist on labeling people. I mean that is how you think and are educated I guess but not everyone thinks and fits into pigeon holes. I look at the details of a theory and not put people into labels. At least in science, my field, we do not have lables but read the theories for themselves, not which label we can slap on them.

It would also be an improvement if you would not call people dishonest attacking their character because they disagree with you. This tells me that the fruit of your position does not belong in the category of the fruit of the Holy Spirit. When a man's theory or thinking makes him personally attack others who disagree instead of showing tolerance and love despite the disagreement, then I question the source of that theory. I do not agree with you and I do not call you dishonest or other character attacking names. You might want to work on that in your life. It does not make your theory more attractive to see that this is what a man does if he believes as you do.

claninja said:

Please state whether you believe Revelation was written either post 70 AD or Pre 70 AD.

Additionally, please provide evidence to support your belief.

Click to expand...

Jn.2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?


21 But he spake of the temple of his body.


22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.


But he spake of the temple of his body.



Col.1:26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:


Gal.3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.


Eph.4:4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling;


5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism,


6 one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all.




Rev.21:22 I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.


23 And the city has no need of the sun or of the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God has illumined it, and its lamp is the Lamb.


But he spake of the temple of his body.



Can you please tell me when this 70 AD thing started?



Thank you.

claninja said:

Please state whether you believe Revelation was written either post 70 AD or Pre 70 AD.

Additionally, please provide evidence to support your belief.

Click to expand...

The Nuremberg Chronicle says that John was sent to Patmos by Domitain, who began his persecution during the 12th year of his reign, and that he reigned from 98-113. When he died, John the beloved was released [pretty cool to outlast your persecutioner].

So, if the Nuremberg Chronicle is correct about these dates and events, then John was given the Revelation of Jesus sometime between 110 and 113 A.D. And since John records himself getting ready to write the words of the 7 thunders, we know that he was writing it at the same time he was being shown/told it.

claninja said:

Please state whether you believe Revelation was written either post 70 AD or Pre 70 AD.

Additionally, please provide evidence to support your belief.

Click to expand...

claninja said:

The syriac version of revelation starts with:

"The Revelation which God made to John the evangelist, in the Island of Patmos, to which he was banished by Nero Caesar"

Click to expand...

I have no view on when it was visioned or written.

There is also another book of Revelation which shows John was on Mt Tabor after the taking up of Jesus. [Yes, I know John says he was on the isle of Patmos]
I have never read this version, so I have no view on it
It is believed by some that Mt Tabor is where the transfiguration event occurred..........

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0831.htm

After the taking up of our Lord Jesus Christ, I John was alone upon Mount Tabor, where also He showed us His undefiled Godhead; and as I was not able to stand, I fell upon the ground, and prayed to the Lord, and said: O Lord my God, who hast deemed me worthy to be Your servant, hear my voice, and teach me about Your coming........................
................And again I heard a voice saying to me: Behold, you have heard all these things, righteous.

https://rectorspage.wordpress.com/2017/08/06/mount-tabor-and-armageddon/

Mount Tabor and Armageddon

The Transfiguration is, as we just read in Luke’s Gospel, that event at which Peter, James, and John first experienced Jesus in his truest form, in divine glory. But why this stole on this day?

Going back almost to the time of Jesus himself, Mount Tabor in Galilee has been considered the site of the Transfiguration.

It is mentiones 3 times in the Bible:

Judges 4:
6
Now she sent and summoned Barak the son of Abinoam from Kedesh-naphtali, and said to him, “[fn]Behold, the LORD, the God of Israel, has commanded, ‘Go and march to Mount Tabor, and take with you ten thousand men from the sons of Naphtali and from the sons of Zebulun.
12
Then they told Sisera that Barak the son of Abinoam had gone up to Mount Tabor.
14
Deborah said to Barak, “Arise! For this is the day in which the LORD has given Sisera into your hands; [fn]behold, the LORD has gone out before you.” So Barak went down from Mount Tabor with ten thousand men following him

But the word "Tabor" occurs 12 times.......A few verses:

Jeremiah 46:18
“As I live,” declares the King
Whose name is the LORD of hosts,
“Surely one shall come who looms up like Tabor among the mountains,
Or like Carmel by the sea.

Hosea 5:1
Hear this, O priests!
Give heed, O house of Israel!
Listen, O house of the king!
For the judgment applies to you,
For you have been a snare at Mizpah
And a net spread out on Tabor.

My Lamsa Bible, which is from Syriac Peshitta, makes no mention of either Nero or Domitian in the opening of Revelation.

Traditions about the death of Antipas usually date it as 92 AD, but some traditions put Antipas WAY EARLIER - in Nero's time. He was Bishop of Pergamos,I think, a martyr mentioned in Revelation.

Most scholars say Thessalonians is earliest written of NT books -- in the 50's -- more epistles written in 60's -- gospels not til much later, like 100 even.

But I don't necessarily swallow all that -- I personally find it strange that the destruction of the 2nd Temple would be UNMENTIONED in NT books that were written AFTER IT OCCURRED, especially Gospels.

One scholar, Thiede, said ALL NT books were written prior to 70 AD, at least in their original form.

Some scholars say there was an original of Matthew in Aramaic before it was rewritten in Greek, a few say that was true of Mark also.

I don't think that in this life we can know for sure when Revelation was written, the important thing is not to have our names BLOTTED OUT of Book of Life.

Anto9us said:

Traditions about the death of Antipas usually date it as 92 AD, but some traditions put Antipas WAY EARLIER - in Nero's time. He was Bishop of Pergamos,I think, a martyr mentioned in Revelation.

Click to expand...

The death f Antipas has no bearing on the date of revelation it was long before Revelation was written

• Rev 2:13 I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan’s seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.

Scoffers always say that books of the bible were written long after they were because they don't believe in prophecy. The NT apart from Revelation was all written before AD70. That is how they get 2, 3 or 4 diferent Isaiahs, and Daniel written about 160BC.

David Kent said:

Scoffers always say that books of the bible were written long after they were because they don't believe in prophecy.

Click to expand...

We people who are used to have nothing much in the way of memory, because we have plastic-w/circuits and all the paper of a million trees, fail to recognize that fishermen have a whole lot of patient time to think about what Jesus told them. And the Holy Spirit helped them, by reminding them of Jesus' words and telling them what Jesus means by what He says. His sheep know His voice, so... a light-bulb comes on over their heads, so to speak. They recognized the truth when they hear it, and will follow nothing else.

For us to need USB memory sticks makes us think that the ancients who neither that or writing could not have had accurate history, but it has beeen shown that that is not true. Do you know of events that happend in your country 400 years ago? The early christsians had writing and would not have had to rely on oral traditions. Because we don't have the original documents doesn't mean they didn't exist. We don't have original copies of the gospels. Does that mean our copies are based on hearsay?