When two worldviews collide.

[Bradskii]

Is this a picture of a woman or a man? According to your Australian world view.

It's a guy. According to him.

 

[Bradskii]

You guessed wrong. I argued that the issue is not global, but in specific areas and with specific causes and sometimes it not even an issue for those societies.

Do you think that your Australian culture is superior to cultures where men have different roles than women? Or where reading is not a useful skill?

Australian culture is different, obviously, to other cultures. It is not 'superior' unless you have very specific examples. In which case they will be addressed specifically and I will give my personal opinion.

Ready when you are...

 

[trophy33]

It's a guy.

If by the "guy" you mean "man", how do you know?

 

[trophy33]

Australian culture is different, obviously, to other cultures. It is not 'superior' unless you have very specific examples. In which case they will be addressed specifically and I will give my personal opinion.

Ready when you are...

Is your Australian culture superior to cultures where men and women have different roles or where reading is not a useful skill? You do not need a specific xyz name, this is enough.

 

[Paidiske]

I argued that the issue is not global, but in specific areas and with specific causes and sometimes it not even an issue for those societies.

A lack of literacy, in general, might not be an issue in (for example) highly oral cultures, or cultures which don't use writing. (I would note that this is an extremely small proportion of the world's population). However, a literacy gap (where literacy is a useful skill taught to boys and not girls, or girls at a far lower rate) is an issue wherever it occurs.

But it's a global issue in the sense that it's an issue in many countries, in more than one culture, and has an impact on women in many areas. My feminism is not limited to a small radius around my own home.

Do you think that your Australian culture is superior to cultures where men have different roles than women?

I think cultures which disempower women and deny them opportunities have a significant problem. I will note that this problem is not absent from Australia.

 

[Bradskii]

If by the "guy" you mean "man", how do you know?

He says so. I...don't get where you are going with this.

 

[Bradskii]

Is your Australian culture superior to cultures where men and women have different roles or where reading is not a useful skill? You do not need a specific xyz name, this is enough.

I'm really not sure what point you are making. Australian culture is different to other cultures. It's not, simply by being Australian, necessarily better than anyone else's.

Do you actually have a point that you want to make? You've lost me...

 

[rjs330]

Sport is not exactly a normal workplace. From what I can see, though, elite sports organisations are working through those issues. And sure, safety in prisons is a concern, but it's hardly isolated to trans people.

It's very convenient, though, to keep feminists focussed on trans issues rather than patriarchy.

Now you are down playing it because you realized you are wrong. Sport is a huge workplace for women. All the way from highschool and professional levels. Nearly every sport has women's teams. Men have infiltrated those sports taking jobs and opportunities away from women. That's patriarchy.

And no one is trying to keep feminists focused on trans issues rather than patriarchy. The fact is patriarchy is a part of the trans issues. Men forcing their way into women's places including work places and demanding that women put themselves beneath them. Women have lost scholarship opportunities because they had to compete against men. That's patriarchy.

 

[rjs330]

So you are happy for an 18 year old male to transition. That's crystal clear. And I've used 18 as an arbitrary age which most people would consider to be adult. Although most people wouldn't realise that our brains aren't fully developed until close to 30. More so in males than females. And here's a view (and it's very common) that there's a 2 year difference between the sexes at around 18. So a 16 year old girl is as mature as that 18 year old. The Truth Behind Women's Brains

And let's face it, there is a very wide gap in individuals. Anyone who has had kids and grandkids know that for a fact. I'd say with my kids my daughter was at least three years ahead of my son at that age and probably more so than I was when I was around 17.

In any case, it has been explained to you CONSTANTLY that decisions being made that have long term impacts must be considered on an individual basis. So it's literally impossible to have an arbitrary age cast in stone and say Beyond This You Shall Not Pass. It's simply not an option. It has to be done with the person in question. And for an 18 year old boy, it may be too soon. And for a 16 year old girl, or younger, it might be perfectly acceptable.

Acceptable to you? No, of course not. You think it's not needed, period. But again, as I keep saying, the decision ain't yours.

Sure there is. We have a legal age for a reason. Adult decisions are reserved for adults. And yes the number is arbitrary and society has determined that 18 is a legal adult and everyone under is a juvenile. We have established arbitrary decisions based on age such as alcohol. It's what we have. Now we could argue that the age of adulthood could and should be raised. And that would be a very interesting conversation but probably not well received and would only be an intellectual conversation. No chance of it really happening.

Now you mentioned 16 for girls being as mature as 18 year old girls. Would you be for making them adults at 16 then and giving them the rights of all adults?

 

[rjs330]

Oh please. Please don't. When on earth is this going to stop what people think is some sort of gotcha.

Hey, I know...I can give some examples. You present as a male. You know, beard on the avatar. So you're a guy until you tell me differently. My wife is female. I'm pretty certain about that because she tells me so some times (and she has had two children). So treat her as such if you'd be so kind. I'm a guy. Same as you. Born male. All the requisite equipment in full working order. And you may address me as he or him. One of my relatives is male. Beard again, considers himself male, we'll skip the equipment but you wouldn'tbe able to tell. So he is male. Refer to him as such please.

Are we good? Or are you still unclear and you want me to clarify what anyone else is?

You didn't answer the question. In fact you did what leftists always do. You said he presented as a male. What is a male? It's only a gotcha question when you can't really answer it despite making claims that women are men. The examples you gave are performative.

I also found it interesting that you said your wife is a female because she tells you she is. So you have no clue if she is a female or not and it's all based on what she tells you? And she has had two children? What does having children have to do with her being female?

If your relative has a beard and looks like a dude I would think he's a dude simply by outward appearances. Maybe. No promises until I actually laid eyes on them. We all use first appearances a a basis for first impressions. However, I have actually seen many trans people who under first oppression I immediately recognized they were trans. Which tells me some are better at their cover up than others.

But make no mistake, your relative is not a he. Your relative is a she who desires to be thought of as a he. If you relative walked up to me and shook my hand and introduced themselves as Bill, I would respond with "Hi Bill, nice to meet you." And if I couldn't tell Bill was a female by outward appearance I would say, "That Bill is a nice guy." And if Bill wanted to use the men's room I would say let him. Can't tell the difference. And Bill would use a stall so no one would be the wiser.

I would also say Bill should stay out of mens locker rooms, men's showers, men's sports, men's prisons, men's fraternities etc. Because Bill isn't a man. Bill is a woman dressed up and disguised as a man and everyone would figure it out pretty quickly.

But as an everyday thing, walking around and doing regular business and no one would guess on first appearances then Bill can live as a man all Bill wants. But the consequences of Bills decision is Bill doesn't get to do all the man things because Bill isn't really a man. Bill just feels like a man. That's a consequence of Bills choices.

As someone once said "Looks is deceiving". Looks isn't everything. It's just part of the package and you are not man or woman without the entire package. You are just pretending to be one.

So the question remains, what is a man? Is a man only what he feels? Is a man only what he looks like at first glance? Is a man only how he behaves? Or is there more to it than that? What is a man?

 

[Paidiske]

Now you are down playing it because you realized you are wrong. Sport is a huge workplace for women.

No, I'm downplaying it because I think sport is a niche issue.

And no one is trying to keep feminists focused on trans issues rather than patriarchy.

Amazing, then, how when someone offers a valid critique of patriarchy, it becomes all "but what about men in women's sports!" As if this is what we should be focussed on instead of the global literacy gap, instead of women being disadvantaged in the workplace, instead of women being marginalised in faith communities, and so on.

The reality is, no transwoman has ever blocked my progress, denied me an opportunity, or taken a role I should have had on merit. But all of those things happen to women, by men, around the world, every day.

So transwomen are not the problem. Patriarchy is the problem. And I refuse to be diverted from that by someone who thinks it's a bigger issue that not every sporting body has worked out its standards on trans peoples' participation yet.

The fact is patriarchy is a part of the trans issues.

If you're so concerned about patriarchy, please list some issues with patriarchy which you would like to see tackled, which have nothing to do with trans issues.

 

[Bradskii]

Now you mentioned 16 for girls being as mature as 18 year old girls. Would you be for making them adults at 16 then and giving them the rights of all adults?

No. As mature as 18 year old boys. So they have the same mental capacity to determine what they do and what they want as an 18 year old boy. And some people mature a lot earlier. The point being that each individual case must be determined individually. You cannot simply say that, sorry, you have to wait for your birthday before we do anything as regards a medical process.

As with the arbitrary age for buying alcohol etc, it's not practical to interview people for months at a time to determine whether they are mature enough to handle a few beers of drive a truck. So we pick an age. That's not an equivalent situation to dealing with medical issues. But you knew that...

I'll repeat that important bit yet one more time. People must be dealt with on an individual basis. As opposed to the equivalent of saying 'you'll have to wait until two weeks on Thursday before we can do anything.'

 

[Bradskii]

You didn't answer the question. In fact you did what leftists always do. You said he presented as a male.

No, I said that he says he's male. Just looking at the picture, the person is either a woman with a beard or a man who likes to wear make up. As I'm familiar with the person, it's the latter. I don't have his medical details or pictures of his anatomy or his psychological profile. But I know tht he says he's a guy. That's fine by me.

So...what else would I call him?

 

[Lukaris]

Lucky us, eh? We don't have to do it. But lots of people seem keen to let gay people know that they deserve it. I dunno, maybe the distinction is too subtle for me.

I would say the distinction is probably not observed in other belief systems in the world in places like North Korea or Iran or among groups like Boko Harum. Paul was speaking in a surrounding environment that was probably depraved on many levels ( like sacrificing children) which the Bible clearly condemns in Genesis 22:1-19.

The world still is depraved today and maybe not all societies are in step with the latest redefinitions of humanity. There was a lot of criticism of anti lgbtq laws in Uganda in this forum. Uganda is still trying to root out barbarism like child sacrifice alongside modern problems of child slavery etc. They are passing laws as they see fit to keep their society intact like amendments to their children’s protection act:

https://www.loc.gov/item/global-legal-monitor/2016-03-17/uganda-parliament-passes-amendments-to-children-act/#:~:text=It%20states%2C%20%E2%80%9D%5Be%5D,%2C%202015%2C%20%C2%A7%2010.)

Child sacrifice is still happening in sub Saharan Africa:

Child sacrifice in Uganda - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Do the psuedo enlightened secularists on CF have other advice for nations trying to root out horrific things like this? Or is it only because they are not up to date on the latest woke redefinition of humanity and lgbtq must take precedence over trying to root out matters like child sacrifice?

 

[rjs330]

He says so. I...don't get where you are going with this.

Ah so you only ever know if they are a man or woman if they tell you then?

What is a man? And by the way this is only a gotcha question if you can't answer it. For the rest us its not.

 

[timothyu]

Ah so you only ever know if they are a man or woman if they tell you then?

That coincides with the newest guys' pickup line out there..."So, have you always been a woman?"

 

[rjs330]

No. As mature as 18 year old boys. So they have the same mental capacity to determine what they do and what they want as an 18 year old boy. And some people mature a lot earlier. The point being that each individual case must be determined individually. You cannot simply say that, sorry, you have to wait for your birthday before we do anything as regards a medical process.

As with the arbitrary age for buying alcohol etc, it's not practical to interview people for months at a time to determine whether they are mature enough to handle a few beers of drive a truck. So we pick an age. That's not an equivalent situation to dealing with medical issues. But you knew that...

I'll repeat that important bit yet one more time. People must be dealt with on an individual basis. As opposed to the equivalent of saying 'you'll have to wait until two weeks on Thursday before we can do anything.'

So girls at 16 have the maturity of 18 year old boys. Why shouldn't they be allowed to be adults then? Why if they can make mature decisions as if they were 18 then they should be able to do whatever they can do at 18 at 16. At least that's your argument. If not, why did you bring it up?

No people shouldn't be delt with on an individual basis when it comes to juveniles. We have 18 for a purpose to establish adulthood. And at adulthood you are entitled to make adult decisions. We don't let boys two months before they are 18 enter the military and get into boot camp. Here's a whole lot of things you can do at 18 that you can't do before and you DO have to wait until your birthday. Many of these things are FAR more minor than undergoing medical transitioning.

What Can You Do When You Turn 18? 47 Rights & Privileges

Wait until you are 18. These things aren't taken on a case by case basis why should medical transitioning?

 

[Bradskii]

The world still is depraved today and maybe not all societies are in step with the latest redefinitions of humanity. There was a lot of criticism of anti lgbtq laws in Uganda in this forum. Uganda is still trying to root out barbarism like child sacrifice alongside modern problems of child slavery etc. They are passing laws as they see fit to keep their society intact like amendments to their children’s protection act:

Sorry, you have lost me. It sounds like you're saying that if people argue that one thing is wrong then they are indifferent to another. It sounds like that, but it's such a ridiculous suggestion that you must mean something else. But it's got me beat.

 

[Bradskii]

Ah so you only ever know if they are a man or woman if they tell you then?

What is a man? And by the way this is only a gotcha question if you can't answer it. For the rest us its not.

In some cases it's hard to tell. So yeah, it's really handy if they give some indication. If I didn't know the dude in the picture I would have no idea just by looking at him. We had a thing in an office where I worked where we brought in pictures of ourselves from our younger days and everyone had to guess who they belonged to. Mine was taken when I was 16. Hair down to here. Good looking kid. Fresh faced. Too cute for words. Two people thought the picture was of one of the electrical engineers. She wasn't pleased.

And what is a man? Good grief, these dopey questions never end. Are you talking biologically or in regards to gender? Most of us biological guys were born male and have the requisite wedding tackle and if someone asks because there may be some doubt (if for example you have long hair and look cute, like I did) you may have to nominate.

If someone considers themselves female and is transitioning but still has that afore mentioned equipment then it will be up to that person if they would like you to consider them male or female. Yeah, I know. Tough for you to do. But do your best.

 

[rjs330]

No. As mature as 18 year old boys. So they have the same mental capacity to determine what they do and what they want as an 18 year old boy. And some people mature a lot earlier. The point being that each individual case must be determined individually. You cannot simply say that, sorry, you have to wait for your birthday before we do anything as regards a medical process.

As with the arbitrary age for buying alcohol etc, it's not practical to interview people for months at a time to determine whether they are mature enough to handle a few beers of drive a truck. So we pick an age. That's not an equivalent situation to dealing with medical issues. But you knew that...

I'll repeat that important bit yet one more time. People must be dealt with on an individual basis. As opposed to the equivalent of saying 'you'll have to wait until two weeks on Thursday before we can do anything.'

So girls at 16 have the maturity of 18 year old boys. Why shouldn't they be allowed to be adults then? Why if they can make mature decisions as if they were 18 then they should be able to do whatever they can do at 18 at 16. At least that's your argument. If not, why did you bring it up?

No people shouldn't be delt with on an individual basis when it comes to juveniles. We have 18 for a purpose to establish adulthood. And at adulthood you are entitled to make adult decisions. We don't let boys two months before they are 18 enter the military and get into boot camp. Here's a whole lot of things you can do at 18 that you can't do before and you DO have to wait until your birthday. Many of these things are FAR more minor than undergoing medical transitioning.

What Can You Do When You Turn 18? 47 Rights & Privileges

Wait until you are 18. These things aren't taken on a case by case basis why should medical transitioning

No, I said that he says he's male. Just looking at the picture, the person is either a woman with a beard or a man who likes to wear make up. As I'm familiar with the person, it's the latter. I don't have his medical details or pictures of his anatomy or his psychological profile. But I know tht he says he's a guy. That's fine by me.

So...what else would I call him?

I will use th pronouns you've assign d for him to be easy. Call him by his name. That's what I'd do. But I would know he's not a man. And to avoid from having to lie about him I wouldn't use his preferred pronouns when talking about him. I would stick with his name. You only use pronouns when talking about someone, not when talking to them. And no one should be required to use pronouns that don't actually belong to the person. If you WANT to use those pronouns then fine, it's your choice. But don't demand everyone else do the same.

Why do names matter? Because names are not necessarily indicative of sex. I know girls named Charlie. I know males named Fay. And each society determines names anyway. But what is immutable is someone's gender/sex. You are either male or female unless you have a chromosomal defect which under some circumstances can make it unclear. Intersex is a birth defect.

Secondly he shouldn't be allowed in men's spaces b cause he's not a man. The only alteration to this I would give us bathrooms because if he looks like a man and no one can tell then no one is the wiser in a stall.

If he says he's a guy and he's not a guy then dealing with the above are accepting the consequences to his actions.