When trying to find like-minded people in church, false gospel is prominent?

[GodBeMercifulToMeASinner]

The Lord Jesus Christ said it best...

“And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.” —Matthew 23:9

God is the only Father of His Church.

“But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.” —James 3:17

“Then Peter opened hismouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:” —Acts 10:34

Eusebius:
Collected the writings of Origen and promoted his false teachings. Constantine hired Eusebius to produce some Greek New Testaments. Many textual authorities have identified Vaticanus and Sinaiticus, as two of the copies of the Greek New Testament made by Eusebius. Said authorities have charged Eusebius with making many changes in the text of Scripture. Many of the noted omissions in the modern versions can be traced to this period, such as Mark 16:9-20 and John 8:1-11.

Jerome:
Proponent of the manmade doctrine of believing the state of virginity to be spiritually superior to that of marriage and demanding that church leaders be unmarried. He lived as a hermit, contrary to the Bible’s command to go forth and preach the gospel to every creature (Mark 16:15). Believed in the veneration of “holy relics” and the bones of dead Christians. Sounds more like voodoo or santeria than the Biblical Christian Faith imo. Taught the manmade doctrine that saints in heaven hear the prayers of men on earth, intercede on their behalf, and send them help from above. This isn’t found in scripture anywhere. Taught that Mary became instrumental in helping to redeem mankind. Believed in the blessing of ‘holy water’ which is now one of the most beloved manmade traditions in the Roman Catholic religion. Expressed hatred toward those that strived to follow the Biblical 1st Century New Testament Church model.

Ambrose:
Taught manmade doctrines such as Christians should be devoted to Mary, encouraged the manmade tradition of monasticism, and believed in prayers to the saints. Believed that the church has the authority to forgive sins. Taught the manmade doctrine of ‘virginity is holier than marriage’ and encouraged young women not to marry. Another manmade doctrine he believed in was offering prayers for the dead.

Augustine:
Instigated persecutions against Bible-believers who were striving to maintain biblical churches, which only include those whom have come to repentance (2 Corinthians 7:10) and rebirth (John 3:3). This paved the way for the multibillion dollar business model that is today’s denominational building-based religion. By opening the ‘church’ so-called to those outside God’s called out ekklesia of reborn believers (John 3:3) this allows for more people in the pews, thus more money for the gold plates, more unbiblical mandatory tithes..more CONTROL for the gatekeepers of weekend religion. Augustine also taught that baptism and the Lord’s Supper are means of salvation..false gospel = accursed (Galatians 1:9). Taught the manmade doctrine that infants should be baptized, and that the baptism took away their sin. He called all who rejected infant baptism “infidels” and “cursed.” Taught that Mary did not sin and played a vital role in one’s salvation. Preached the manmade doctrine of purgatory. He exalted the authority of the church over that of the Bible, declaring, “I should not believe the gospel unless I were moved to do so by the authority of the Catholic Church” (quoted by John Paul II, Augustineum Hyponensem, Apostolic Letter, Aug. 28, 1986). He believed that the true interpretation of Scripture is derived from the declaration of church councils (Augustin, De Vera Religione, xxiv, p. 45). This is contrary to what God’s Word says (1 John 2:27) and serves as a means for manmade religion to usurp more CONTROL. He also laid the blueprint for the manmade religion of calvinism by preaching that God has pre-ordained some for salvation and others for damnation. Which contradicts God’s Word (1 John 2:2, Romans 2:11, 2 Corinthians 5:14-15, John 3:16, 1 Timothy 2:4, 2 Peter 3:9, Hebrews 2:9).

John Chrysostom:
Taught that religious tradition can be equal in authority to God’s Word, which is in opposition to God’s Word (Mark 7:6-9). Also believed in the manmade mystical bread doctrine.

Cyril:
Promoted the veneration of Mary and called her the Theotokos, or bearer of God. In 412, Cyril instigated persecution against the Donatists.

“Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.” —1 John 4:1

 

[Tranquil Bondservant]

The Lord Jesus Christ said it best...

“And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.” —Matthew 23:9

God is the only Father of His Church.

“But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.” —James 3:17

“Then Peter opened hismouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:” —Acts 10:34

Eusebius:
Collected the writings of Origen and promoted his false teachings. Constantine hired Eusebius to produce some Greek New Testaments. Many textual authorities have identified Vaticanus and Sinaiticus, as two of the copies of the Greek New Testament made by Eusebius. Said authorities have charged Eusebius with making many changes in the text of Scripture. Many of the noted omissions in the modern versions can be traced to this period, such as Mark 16:9-20 and John 8:1-11.

Jerome:
Proponent of the manmade doctrine of believing the state of virginity to be spiritually superior to that of marriage and demanding that church leaders be unmarried. He lived as a hermit, contrary to the Bible’s command to go forth and preach the gospel to every creature (Mark 16:15). Believed in the veneration of “holy relics” and the bones of dead Christians. Sounds more like voodoo or santeria than the Biblical Christian Faith imo. Taught the manmade doctrine that saints in heaven hear the prayers of men on earth, intercede on their behalf, and send them help from above. This isn’t found in scripture anywhere. Taught that Mary became instrumental in helping to redeem mankind. Believed in the blessing of ‘holy water’ which is now one of the most beloved manmade traditions in the Roman Catholic religion. Expressed hatred toward those that strived to follow the Biblical 1st Century New Testament Church model.

Ambrose:
Taught manmade doctrines such as Christians should be devoted to Mary, encouraged the manmade tradition of monasticism, and believed in prayers to the saints. Believed that the church has the authority to forgive sins. Taught the manmade doctrine of ‘virginity is holier than marriage’ and encouraged young women not to marry. Another manmade doctrine he believed in was offering prayers for the dead.

Augustine:
Instigated persecutions against Bible-believers who were striving to maintain biblical churches, which only include those whom have come to repentance (2 Corinthians 7:10) and rebirth (John 3:3). This paved the way for the multibillion dollar business model that is today’s denominational building-based religion. By opening the ‘church’ so-called to those outside God’s called out ekklesia of reborn believers (John 3:3) this allows for more people in the pews, thus more money for the gold plates, more unbiblical mandatory tithes..more CONTROL for the gatekeepers of weekend religion. Augustine also taught that baptism and the Lord’s Supper are means of salvation..false gospel = accursed (Galatians 1:9). Taught the manmade doctrine that infants should be baptized, and that the baptism took away their sin. He called all who rejected infant baptism “infidels” and “cursed.” Taught that Mary did not sin and played a vital role in one’s salvation. Preached the manmade doctrine of purgatory. He exalted the authority of the church over that of the Bible, declaring, “I should not believe the gospel unless I were moved to do so by the authority of the Catholic Church” (quoted by John Paul II, Augustineum Hyponensem, Apostolic Letter, Aug. 28, 1986). He believed that the true interpretation of Scripture is derived from the declaration of church councils (Augustin, De Vera Religione, xxiv, p. 45). This is contrary to what God’s Word says (1 John 2:27) and serves as a means for manmade religion to usurp more CONTROL. He also laid the blueprint for the manmade religion of calvinism by preaching that God has pre-ordained some for salvation and others for damnation. Which contradicts God’s Word (1 John 2:2, Romans 2:11, 2 Corinthians 5:14-15, John 3:16, 1 Timothy 2:4, 2 Peter 3:9, Hebrews 2:9).

John Chrysostom:
Taught that religious tradition can be equal in authority to God’s Word, which is in opposition to God’s Word (Mark 7:6-9). Also believed in the manmade mystical bread doctrine.

Cyril:
Promoted the veneration of Mary and called her the Theotokos, or bearer of God. In 412, Cyril instigated persecution against the Donatists.

“Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.” —1 John 4:1

Your arguments are largely based upon semantics without allowing room for any nuance whatsoever. I think that you should really examine your beliefs my friend because I recall you denigrating religious education and now you find yourself relying upon it in order to establish your arguments against reading the Church Fathers. A child of God can read the writings of other children of God without treating them as Scripture and receive spiritual blessings from doing so. They needn't accept their mistakes nor build doctrine upon them. I'm sure you have believed things erroneously in the past but I'm equally sure that you did not treat yourself the same way you're treating the Church Fathers. The same way a child of God can read a history book or a commentary and receive greater understanding through doing so, so to can they participate in the body of Christ with the writings of their brothers and sisters who have long since passed. Those children who were put to the sword or given to lions for cheering crowds for their confession of Jesus as the Christ and Son of God, your brothers and sisters who you so readily say that Satan preached more Biblically than (without personally even reading their writings).

Your arguments which are based upon semantics are also done in ignorance. You denigrate religious education & scholarship and champion yourself as someone who believes only what the Bible says while simultaneously relying upon scholarship to establish your arguments. Your reference to Matthew 23:9 proves a kind of hypocrisy in your argumentation. You say that no man should call another "Father upon the earth" and yet I take it you call your dad father or some kind of synonym for it? If you want to use the Greek word to establish your arguments against the Church, lets look at the Greek here. The word used for Father in this verse is patēr; do you know what that means? "Literally someone’s male parent. It can also be used to refer to forefathers in the plural." (Lexham Theological Wordbook). Because you argue so literally for definitions without any nuance you pour hot coals upon your own head in regards to other arguments. I'm sure you will argue that the context is speaking about spiritual fathers, but where does it say that in the Bible? The word here denotes an ancestor. If we apply your same reasoning for your arguments based upon the word Ekklesia to this, you cannot call anyone Dad (or the like) ever.

Furthermore, the word "ekklesia" did not come into existence with the incarnation, death, resurrection and ascension of our Lord Jesus. In the example I'm about to give the Septuagint translates the word "qāhāl" as ekklesia and we translate both of these in English as assembly. To be a part of the ekklesia means that you can still attend an "assembly". In Ezra 2:64 we're told "The whole assembly numbered 42,360", the word used for assembly here in the Septuagint is ekklesia. In Ezra 10:1 we're told "Now while Ezra was praying and making confession, weeping and prostrating himself before the house of God, a very large assembly, men, women and children, gathered to him from Israel; for the people wept bitterly.", the word used for assembly here in the Septuagint is "ekklesia". However in Ezra 10:8 we're told "and that whoever would not come within three days, according to the counsel of the leaders and the elders, all his possessions should be forfeited and he himself excluded from the assembly of the exiles.", the word used for assembly here in the Septuagint is "ekklesia". So as you can clearly see from these examples in the book of Ezra there is enough room within the usage of the word ekklesia for the Ekklesia to be able to attend an ekklesia. You have both the word "Ekklesia" being used in a general sense to denote a general assembly of people (Ezra 10:1) and also a specific group of called out people, namely the assembly of the exiles (Ezra 10:8). The reason I call your arguments semantics is because it's literally based on the usage of nouns, and if the word for "ekklesia" in English is "assembly" then the Assembly can attend an assembly.

Please brother, re-examine your beliefs and why it is you're arguing before you do yourself and others serious harm. You're speaking presumptuously on so many things and with so much confidence that you're liable to seal yourself off from any form of correction. I'm also not pretending to be innocent in this as I have previously spoken with arrogance & presumption in the form of arguing for Conditional Immortality (which I no longer believe). I look back on some of the things I have written and how I went about arguing and as a result I now feel incredible personal shame, I hope I can spare you the same. God bless you and God be with you.

 

[timewerx]

I think you are mistaken though that when Peter writes in 2 Peter 3:16 that Paul's teachings are difficult to understand that he is implying that some don't make sense to him personally. What he is actually saying is a defence of Paul's teachings.

I agree, Peter made it clear in defense of Paul. However, the Greek passage gets distorted somehow in the English translation.

It's more like "unintelligible" or "jibberish" in 2 Peter 3:16 with the Greek 'dus' + noétos instead of "hard to understand"

It's a huge problem if you look at it this way - If Peter is having problems with Paul's writings, then how much more to people who never walked with Christ in the flesh - The Christians a few generations later.

Also the Greek words used by Paul for "submission" and "love" are distinct from one another. Hupotassó and agapaó respectively

Strong's Greek: 25. ἀγαπάω (agapaó) -- to love

Strong's Greek: 5293. ὑποτάσσω (hupotassó) -- to place or rank under, to subject, mid. to obey

Submission is purely in the context of subjecting yourself under an authority or a higher ranking officer. Submission/Hupotassó doesn't imply "love" - you can submit yourself to a higher ranking officer or a leader whom you hate for example.

To Peter, whom John 15:15 is known, it would not make sense.

Submission / obedience is only necessary if you need to be commanded what to do because you don't know what you're doing or you don't possess the knowledge nor experience/skills to perform a certain task nor the initiative to autonomously perform tasks on your own.

For example it was necessary for women during the Roman occupation to submit to their husbands due to having little rights and poorly educated compared to men.

This is why it would be better for women during the Roman occupation to remain single, and just live with her parents. The necessity to submit to husband entails great risk of being forced into false beliefs or the wrong religion.

You can submit and serve when you love but you can submit and serve without love and submission alone won't bring you the truth. It is love that reveals the truth, not submission alone. Love the Lord your God....the Word is God. Love brings you to the truth not, submission alone. Because submission alone can lead to blind allegiance and eventually to accepting false beliefs.

But Paul clearly separated submission from love in Ephesians 5. He did not say for wives to submit and love but submit only and for the church to submit to Christ only, not submit and love.

To the original disciples, such teaching would not make sense.

I'm NOT saying Paul mean these things literally but perhaps to make his point clear across a specific culture. A culture that is unlike ours. A teaching that isn't meant for us. (1 Corinthians 9:19-23)

Other things that wouldn't make sense to Peter and the original disciples is Paul's teachings regarding the need for a church hierarchy of leadership when the anointing of the Holy Spirit would be sufficient (1 John 2:27) (John 16:13).

The corruptibility of men and women and if you need to submit to corrupted men and women. Do that for many generations and we have a huge problem in our hands. Only few will ever know the truth as Jesus foretold.

I think the system of church hierarchy is also period-specific and only meant to be temporary because it is at great risk getting corrupted over time and meaning greatly distorted from the original teachings. Look no further than the Church Orthodoxy. They have mountains of problems and keeps on relenting to the pressures of the world when the world is the enemy (James 4:4).

Read the verses and links I posted here and tell me that I'm wrong. Or just look at the Orthodoxy and tell me there's nothing wrong with what they're doing with corruptions all around and their efforts to try to please the world.

Also read about Jude 1, the whole chapter. God will allow these things to happen. The great deception and finality of which only few will come to know the truth.

 

[Tranquil Bondservant]

Submission is purely in the context of subjecting yourself under an authority or a higher ranking officer. Submission/Hupotassó doesn't imply "love" - you can submit yourself to a higher ranking officer or a leader whom you hate for example.

It may not imply love by the 100% literal definition of the word used but by tying it in with Christ contextually it absolutely implies love. You can't separate a few words from the surrounding theology and context. Nor his other writings.

But Paul clearly separated submission from love in Ephesians 5. He did not say for wives to submit and love but submit only and for the church to submit to Christ only, not submit and love.

No he didn't:
Ephesians 5:22: "Wives, be subject to your own husbands, as to the Lord."
Ephesians 5:25: "Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her,"
Philippians 2:3-8: "Do nothing from selfishness or empty conceit, but with humility of mind regard one another as more important than yourselves; do not merely look out for your own personal interests, but also for the interests of others. Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross."
Ephesians 5:28-29: "So husbands ought also to love their own wives as their own bodies. He who loves his own wife loves himself; for no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ also does the church,"
1 Corinthians 13:1-3: "If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing."

The same man who wrote Ephesians 5 wrote these other things. So you say he clearly separated submission from love but I don't think that's clear at all. The only way you can read it that way is if you delete Paul's other epistles and what he thinks about submission and love. Also you say that he separated submission from love but what do you think "as to the Lord" in Eph 5:22 means? Paul's saying extremely similar things for both men and women and tying both genders to the love of Christ. So no matter which way you look at it, he's not separating it from love. Especially when you consider the totality of his epistles and Scripture in general.

 

[timewerx]

I was going to reply in detail to every point you made, but my response would end up being very long. I feel like this is starting to stray very far from the original discussion and question posed by the OP. I don't want to derail his thread with a discussion about submission or Paul's teachings in general. Perhaps a discussion we can save for another thread. I also don't approve of abuses within church leadership. Of course, not everyone who is ordained a pastor is Godly. There are many wolves in sheep's clothing and false teachers. That's why we are given instruction on how to discern correct teachings/doctrines. My initial argument in all of this was that there are still good churches, good pastors, and that God did design his church to be shepherded by elders, pastors, and bishops. We shouldn't dismiss this hierarchy simply because some have abused their position.

I will just address one other point:

If you read the whole chapter of 2 Peter 3 the context of the entire chapter is Peter's commentary about scoffers who don't believe in the judgements. He begins with a recap of the scoffers who disbelieved the warnings of Noah, and then those who disregarded the prophecies of the prophets. He compares their attitude to the current attitude of those who discredited the belief in the end times and the return of the Lord. He mentions Paul's writings, because Paul wrote a lot about the end times, the antichrist, and Christ's return. This is taught in detail in his epistles to the Thessalonians. He's specifically referring to these doctrines Paul taught.

And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

It's clear that what Paul writes that is difficult to understand is his warnings about the return of Christ. This has nothing to do with submission. What you may believe about that issue is not at all related to this chapter. Peter is exhorting them to not be scoffers, but to listen to Paul's warnings. That his writings are wisdom from the Holy Spirit. Peter speaks highly of Paul's wisdom. No one understands fully how the end times will unfold. We are told that no man knows the hour of the Lord's return. We are not intended to know that. Rather we need to believe that it will come and we need to prepare spiritually for it. This isn't a cause for confusion. Paul wasn't preaching something that was contrary to what the other disciples believed. We have to walk by faith in many areas. It's really not hard to understand this at all when you read the entire passage.

As I bow out of this discussion, I want to say that each Christian should pray and seek God for wisdom and guidance. He can direct us to find other believers to fellowship with. Whether that be a local church or a home fellowship. I think both are equally valid forms of fellowship. I never disparaged home groups or meetings outside of an established church. My only concern (and what prompted me to respond initially) was that some were advising others to avoid established churches all together. This I felt was dangerous advice. I think that Scripture should be our highest authority. That coupled with discernment from the Holy Spirit. I referenced the fathers in my initial post to provide historical context and proof that immortality of the soul was the accepted belief by the leaders of the first century church. I suggested that the writings of the fathers could be beneficial and supplemental to our reading of Scripture and could help us gain insight into what the church has historically and collectively believed throughout the centuries. I was not suggesting that they were infallible or correct on all points of doctrine. I also don't think we should submit to the ministry of pastor who has not demonstrated a life of Godliness and sound teaching. Of course, as with all things, we need to make decisions based on wisdom from prayer.

I only meant to share examples why Peter might say Paul's teachings doesn't make sense to Peter.

Other examples are like Paul's chose of words to "obey" vs "keep" (like keeping the commandments) for Jesus. While "keep" in the Greek words means to "stand guard". The context of "obey" is again similar to "submit" with the general usage of submitting under an authority or higher ranking officer.

Again, this doesn't make sense to Peter and the original disciples. If they're not under another person, then they have nobody to obey or submit themselves to (1 John 2:27).

This isn't a cause for confusion. Paul wasn't preaching something that was contrary to what the other disciples believed.

I totally get why Paul's teachings may sound different. He had to preach to the Gentiles.

Had Paul used the "language/wordings" of Jesus and the original disciples, the Gentiles would end up getting confused instead. In reference to 1 Corinthians 9:19-23.

However, the differences in teaching is a potential source of problematic doctrines if you assume the Gentiles of 2000 years ago are still the same Gentiles today. They're not. We're so culturally remote to the Gentile culture of 2000 years ago that we're practically "alien" to them.

This is why I keep saying many of Paul's teachings no longer apply today. They already didn't apply to many during his time as Paul only meant his teachings for specific audiences.

It's the reason why Peter finds some teachings of Paul nonsensical and it's because of 1 Cor 9:19-23.

Another problem are people thinking they clearly understand all of Paul's teachings when even the spirit-filled Peter who is a first-hand disciple of Jesus had trouble understanding some of Paul's teachings.

It's a problem, a rather huge problem when our religion built the Christian doctrine upon the epistles of Paul. Epistles that wasn't meant for us. It explains everything...Why our religion is in a huge mess today and losing credibility day after day and many people leaving the religion for good.

I think that Scripture should be our highest authority. That coupled with discernment from the Holy Spirit.

It's actually the other-way around. John 16:13, 1 John 2:27

I want to say that each Christian should pray and seek God for wisdom and guidance

I made this prayer when I was 12 years old. Everyday until the Holy Spirit literally drew me out of a crowd. The world no longer made sense to me that's why I made that prayer. I had no problems during those times, except that the world no longer made sense.

It would be for many many years later I would realize what the Holy Spirit did to me on that day was symbolic of what Jesus said to His disciples in John 15:19. He had taken them "out of the world" that is why the world hates them.

My life literally turned upside down after that. Fate was no longer smiling at me but turned a frown. I didn't know what was going on at the time like a switch has been flipped. It was for many many years I would realize this when I first read the whole Bible.

 

[eleos1954]

Good to know you would consider the early church fathers to be heretics for teaching the immortality of the soul. I've read some of their writings. Clement for example references this teaching in his epistle to the Corinthians. Hard to believe he, being a co-laborer with Paul, would be instructing the Corinthians to believe heretical doctrine. He's not the only early father who held to this.

The immortality of the soul is well established in Scripture. It's been the predominant belief within Christianity since the beginning. It's pride to believe that you have the truth and the rest of the church doesn't.

1 Timothy 6:16

Simple and very clear statements

English Standard Version
who (God) alone has immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, whom no one has ever seen or can see. To him be honor and eternal dominion. Amen.

We don't receive immortality until Jesus returns. It is the purpose of the resurrection ... Jesus raising the dead in the grave to life ... that happens when He returns ... not before.

This is a "mini" example

Matthew 27:52-53 Amplified Bible (AMP)The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints (God's people) who had fallen asleep [in death] were raised [to life]; and coming out of the tombs after His resurrection, they entered the holy city (Jerusalem) and appeared to many people.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17​

For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

1 Thessalonians 4:13–5:11
​

The Coming of the Lord

13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. 14 For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. 15 For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord,4 that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these
words.

King James Bible
Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Pretty clear my friend .... there are many many other verses (What Does the Bible Say About Fall Asleep In Death?)

We surely die .... thus says the Lord.

Genesis 2:17. (God said)

King James Bible
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

satan said

Genesis 3:4

King James Bible
And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

I'm believing God.

We aren't supposed to be confused about death ... we are mortal the very definition means we are subject to death ... and we are ... period.

 

[GodBeMercifulToMeASinner]

Your arguments are largely based upon semantics without allowing room for any nuance whatsoever. I think that you should really examine your beliefs my friend because I recall you denigrating religious education and now you find yourself relying upon it in order to establish your arguments against reading the Church Fathers. A child of God can read the writings of other children of God without treating them as Scripture and receive spiritual blessings from doing so. They needn't accept their mistakes nor build doctrine upon them. I'm sure you have believed things erroneously in the past but I'm equally sure that you did not treat yourself the same way you're treating the Church Fathers. The same way a child of God can read a history book or a commentary and receive greater understanding through doing so, so to can they participate in the body of Christ with the writings of their brothers and sisters who have long since passed. Those children who were put to the sword or given to lions for cheering crowds for their confession of Jesus as the Christ and Son of God, your brothers and sisters who you so readily say that Satan preached more Biblically than (without personally even reading their writings).

Your arguments which are based upon semantics are also done in ignorance. You denigrate religious education & scholarship and champion yourself as someone who believes only what the Bible says while simultaneously relying upon scholarship to establish your arguments. Your reference to Matthew 23:9 proves a kind of hypocrisy in your argumentation. You say that no man should call another "Father upon the earth" and yet I take it you call your dad father or some kind of synonym for it? If you want to use the Greek word to establish your arguments against the Church, lets look at the Greek here. The word used for Father in this verse is patēr; do you know what that means? "Literally someone’s male parent. It can also be used to refer to forefathers in the plural." (Lexham Theological Wordbook). Because you argue so literally for definitions without any nuance you pour hot coals upon your own head in regards to other arguments. I'm sure you will argue that the context is speaking about spiritual fathers, but where does it say that in the Bible? The word here denotes an ancestor. If we apply your same reasoning for your arguments based upon the word Ekklesia to this, you cannot call anyone Dad (or the like) ever.

Furthermore, the word "ekklesia" did not come into existence with the incarnation, death, resurrection and ascension of our Lord Jesus. In the example I'm about to give the Septuagint translates the word "qāhāl" as ekklesia and we translate both of these in English as assembly. To be a part of the ekklesia means that you can still attend an "assembly". In Ezra 2:64 we're told "The whole assembly numbered 42,360", the word used for assembly here in the Septuagint is ekklesia. In Ezra 10:1 we're told "Now while Ezra was praying and making confession, weeping and prostrating himself before the house of God, a very large assembly, men, women and children, gathered to him from Israel; for the people wept bitterly.", the word used for assembly here in the Septuagint is "ekklesia". However in Ezra 10:8 we're told "and that whoever would not come within three days, according to the counsel of the leaders and the elders, all his possessions should be forfeited and he himself excluded from the assembly of the exiles.", the word used for assembly here in the Septuagint is "ekklesia". So as you can clearly see from these examples in the book of Ezra there is enough room within the usage of the word ekklesia for the Ekklesia to be able to attend an ekklesia. You have both the word "Ekklesia" being used in a general sense to denote a general assembly of people (Ezra 10:1) and also a specific group of called out people, namely the assembly of the exiles (Ezra 10:8). The reason I call your arguments semantics is because it's literally based on the usage of nouns, and if the word for "ekklesia" in English is "assembly" then the Assembly can attend an assembly.

Please brother, re-examine your beliefs and why it is you're arguing before you do yourself and others serious harm. You're speaking presumptuously on so many things and with so much confidence that you're liable to seal yourself off from any form of correction. I'm also not pretending to be innocent in this as I have previously spoken with arrogance & presumption in the form of arguing for Conditional Immortality (which I no longer believe). I look back on some of the things I have written and how I went about arguing and as a result I now feel incredible personal shame, I hope I can spare you the same. God bless you and God be with you.

Haha, no offense intended at all partner, but you’re using obvious gaslighting techniques here. That doesn’t work with me lol. See, remember when you reached out that day, I told you that you have to be careful of who you yoke yourself up with in regards to spiritual matters? It’s because a person’s ungodly ways can rub off.

“Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners.” —1 Corinthians 15:33

What I said earlier is that God’s Word is discerned spiritually, not via scholarship. In other words, Biblically sound doctrine is not arrived at via scholarship/manmade educational institutions. That is evidenced by the thousands of denominations and sects within weekend building-based religion. That is what happens when manmade institutions not ordained by God such as seminaries & bible colleges, or ‘church fathers’ so-called and other manmade religious systems are relied upon for doctrine.

Yes, 100% true, I am not going to allow for nuance, I stick to God’s Word. God is to be worshipped in spirit and in truth (John 4:24), not worshipped in nuance and in academics lol. Where in the Bible does it say to allow for nuance in doctrine? Now, obviously, institutions of scholarship can be very useful for non-spiritual matters and people can get educated in non-spiritual matters there for careers and what not, which I am all for. There is a big difference between relying on academia for education in worldly matters and relying on academia for spiritual matters. All I did was post some of the unbiblical teachings of the ‘church fathers’ (so-called) and of course, a little leaven is all it takes, as it is written (Mark 8:15, 1 Corinthians 5:6-5:11, Galatians 5:9). But as they say, to each their own.

Oh, yes indeed partner, I have surely believed erroneously in the past..in fact..the relatively recent past to be entirely honest, haha. But don’t be so sure I wasn’t hard on myself, that isn’t true at all. Presumptuous you said? Hahaha..at any rate, I surely was quite hard on myself for allowing myself to be deceived. I sold out on my own self for a period of time, and even sold out on God. But He got me out of it. You know how? First, by simply stating the truth. See, the devil is the father of lies, (John 8:44). And we are told in James 4:7 to resist the devil and he will flee, and what caused satan to depart from Christ in the wilderness? Christ resisted the devil’s narrative, told the truth, and the devil left. Wickedness flees from the truth, wickedness will have no part in accountability.

“The wicked flee when no man pursueth: but the righteous are bold as a lion.” —Proverbs 28:1

Now, what did I do after believing erroneously? I got convicted, and I repented (2 Corinthians 7:10, Luke 18:13-14). I asked God to forgive me. And God blessed me with more grace, abundance, contentment, and other things. Now what about these ‘church fathers’ so-called? Did they repent of their false doctrines? I am not condemning their souls, only God knows..but consider that islamics die for their god, the Jonestown suicide cult claimed to be of Christ, cult leader David Koresh believed he was dying for Christ in a barrage of gunfire, and even the devils believe (James 2:19). Point being, we are not to just unquestioningly believe everyone (1 John 4:1). Also, Christ requires obedience (John 14:15, 1 John 5:3) as evidence one is His. Part of which = what He said in Matthew 23:9.

Now, that is a very serious accusation to make..to call someone a hypocrite. And trust me partner, I know all about hypocrites, haha. No offense taken though, it’s cool. But it is best to be very certain you are righteous to make such an accusation on someone. Now are you? I stand by Christ’s teachings and Matthew 23:9 100%. People can go on about scholastic word salads all day; but it means nothing. The scriptures are discerned spiritually, and scripture is used to interpret scripture, not academia. Lets look at that verse Matthew 23:9 in context, and see what God’s Word says:

“But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren. And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.” —Matthew 23:8-10

Rabbi, Master...are these titles used to denote family members? No, they’re used in this passage to indicate a position of spiritual leadership. It is obvious that ‘father’ in Matthew 23:9 is in reference to spiritual regards, not family ties. So really, it’s you who is reliant on semantics here partner haha. I am just using God’s Word to interpret God’s Word. No offense intended, I am just saying.

At any rate, I also mentioned to DragonFox91 in an earlier post, #18 on the first page here in this thread, that it is just fine to refer to one’s dad as ‘father’ (Mark 7:10, Exodus 20:12). But in matters of spiritual leadership, no, and that is what Matthew 23:9 is all about. So your ‘hypocrite’ accusation is certified false. Use scripture to interpret scripture.

Now, again, this is more semantics here with this ekklesia stuff you mention haha. No offense. Now I never stated that the word ekklesia came into existence with the incarnation, death, resurrection and ascension of The Lord Jesus Christ. God has always had His called out people, set apart for His cause. From the Old Testament to the present day and beyond. Call it whatever ya wish, ekklesia, church, assembly, brethren..we can use Greek words, Hebrew words, Aramaic, Japanese, Spanish, French, Portuguese, Mandarin Chinese whatever..doesn’t matter. My whole point from that old post I made was ‘church’ does not equate to religious buildings. That’s a manmade concept. It is those called out and born from above (John 3:3) whom are the true church, assembly, body..whatever anyone wants to call it in whatever language. It isn’t religious buildings, it is a people. I also said this earlier; I 100% support local assemblies, it is 100% biblical..however, in the religious buildings, not everyone in there is God’s children..including many of the modern pastors. A person must be reborn in order to be His child (John 3:3). But God’s people can gather at buildings, parks, houses, hotels, fields, beaches, riversides, even in prison recreation yards or military barracks haha..doesn’t matter.

So, I am going to stay right where I am in regards to my beliefs, and I will praise God highly for blessing me with them. Not sure how it could possibly be harmful to stick to God’s Word LOL..besides, why waste time and effort on thousands of writings and manmade religious systems which do indeed have false ways. There is no false ways in His Word, it was with Him from the beginning (John 1:1). These ‘church fathers’ (so-called), ahh..not so much, they’ve plenty false ways. Oh well, to each their own as they say.

Now this ‘conditional morality’ doctrine you speak of, what caused you to adopt that in the first place? It was the teachings of manmade religious systems. By going outside the Bible for doctrine, not using scripture to interpret scripture, and relying on man rather than the Spirit to teach you (1 John 2:27). No offense intended, just explaining why I stand where I stand, I hate manmade religion. And whatever religious system you adhere to now, are you sure that it is fully biblical? Or is it another manmade system? If so, have you considered the origins of that system? How about those whom have taught you the ways of that religious system, are they reborn (John 3:3), what fruits of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23) do they exhibit? How about their testimony/repentance/conversion experience/sinful ways God delivered them from? Just things to consider before you take spiritual teachings from someone, gotta try the spirits to see if they are of God, ya know? (1 John 4:1) At any rate, all the best to ya.

“Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way.” —Psalms 119:104

“Therefore I esteem all thy precepts concerning all things to be right; and I hate every false way.” —Psalms 119:128

“Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.” —Matthew 7:15-20

 

[Saucy]

I'm very aware of the verses used to support the doctrine of soul sleep and this position overall. I don't wish to debate the doctrine in detail with you since I have already spent so much time posting in this thread. I will say that these verses do not mean that we exist in a sleepless state until the resurrection. Christ did not teach this.

In the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, both the rich man and Lazarus are fully conscious and aware of their surroundings. In fact, the rich man is able to see what is going to befall his brethren who are still alive. He has a conversation with Abraham and requests that Lazarus be sent to him to cool his burning tongue with water. No one in that parable is asleep. Now, I already know the argument of those who support Soul Sleep. That this is just a parable and not indicative of what is actually happening after we die. I ask you this though, why would Christ teach us about hell and the afterlife and tell us a parable that is not at all accurate to what happens after death. Every other parable that Christ taught including the metaphors used were accurate. For instance, the parable of the sower. It's an accurate depiction of what happens in farming/planting. He didn't give the Jews a parable that would contradict their experience in agriculture. The parable of the leaven in the dough. He is comparing false doctrine to leaven and he explains how false doctrines corrupt the whole church the same way that yeast causes the bread to rise. It would be very odd for every parable that Christ taught to be accurate except for arguably his most important parable- about the dangers of hell and the afterlife. Why would Christ, essentially teach us a falsehood. If this doctrine is a heresy as you mentioned in your first point, wouldn't Christ be very naive and shortsighted to explain to us what will happen in the afterlife and use descriptions that would most certainly give all his hearers the wrong idea. Of course he wouldn't.

Another example from the life of Christ. The thief on the cross. Christ says to him shortly before the thief dies: Today you shall be with me in paradise. Of course, proponents of soul sleep can argue that the thief will be in paradise that day, but simply in an unconscious and sleeping state. Sure, you can argue that. That does technically work. However, it's not the imagery and comfort that Christ's words imply. I think if you read those words of Christ without bias, you would take from that, that the thief will be reunited with Christ and see him within a few hours.

Yes it's very clear to anyone who knows scripture that soul sleep isn't a thing. Absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

 

[timewerx]

Yes it's very clear to anyone who knows scripture that soul sleep isn't a thing. Absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

I've experienced involuntary out of body experience OOBE quite a few times throughout my life.

It's like a dream but the dream is about reality, in real time, anything you can remember have indeed happened during the time you're "out".

Some really weird random things happening like directly interfacing with the phone and entering the internet. You can see it. The internet is like a pitch black space with large abstract objects floating in it. Sometimes I've emerged out another device and had a look around, likely from the device's camera.

 

[GodBeMercifulToMeASinner]

So, on the subject of the manmade religious system..today is ‘Mardi Gras’ haha. Had no idea; never keep track of these holidays anymore, just overheard it while out and about. But I remember back in my pagan days this day was a big deal for my buddies..they’d head over to New Orleans for booze, beads, and ahhh...well let’s just say ‘The 3 B’s’ and leave it at that hahaha. Anyway, come to find out years later this ‘Fat Tuesday’ or ‘Mardi Gras’ is some sort of a ‘Christian’ holiday? LOL..a day of gluttony, drunkenness, nakedness, dressing up in creepy costumes, and other things...trying to keep it ‘G’ rated here.

So they go all out on the gluttony on this day, then tomorrow they put a mark on their foreheads (hmmmmm???) to denote the first day of some sort of ‘fast.’ But the Lord Jesus Christ said this:

“Moreover when ye fast, be not, as the hypocrites, of a sad countenance: for they disfigure their faces, that they may appear unto men to fast. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. But thou, when thou fastest, anoint thine head, and wash thy face; That thou appear not unto men to fast, but unto thy Father which is in secret: and thy Father, which seeth in secret, shall reward thee openly.”
—Matthew 6:16-18

Btw, does ‘Father’ in that passage refer to the person who sired us or no? Or is it Clement? Augustine? LOL just joking..

Anyway, here’s what the Amplified Version of Matthew 6:16 says:

“And whenever you are fasting, do not look gloomy like the hypocrites, for they put on a sad and dismal face [like actors, discoloring their faces with ashes or dirt] so that their fasting may be seen by men. I assure you and most solemnly say to you, they [already] have their reward in full.”

Wow..Clown World is REAL! LOL

Genuinely though, no offense intended if anyone does observe this stuff..just trying to encourage people to expand their horizons beyond what the gatekeepers of denominational building-based religion have fed us is all. Ahhh, what am I saying anyways, I’ve gone so far down the rabbit hole of Clown World I dug my way to Buenos Aires LOL.

 

[High Fidelity]

So, on the subject of the manmade religious system..today is ‘Mardi Gras’ haha. Had no idea; never keep track of these holidays anymore, just overheard it while out and about. But I remember back in my pagan days this day was a big deal for my buddies..they’d head over to New Orleans for booze, beads, and ahhh...well let’s just say ‘The 3 B’s’ and leave it at that hahaha. Anyway, come to find out years later this ‘Fat Tuesday’ or ‘Mardi Gras’ is some sort of a ‘Christian’ holiday? LOL..a day of gluttony, drunkenness, nakedness, dressing up in creepy costumes, and other things...trying to keep it ‘G’ rated here.

So they go all out on the gluttony on this day, then tomorrow they put a mark on their foreheads (hmmmmm???) to denote the first day of some sort of ‘fast.’ But the Lord Jesus Christ said this:

“Moreover when ye fast, be not, as the hypocrites, of a sad countenance: for they disfigure their faces, that they may appear unto men to fast. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. But thou, when thou fastest, anoint thine head, and wash thy face; That thou appear not unto men to fast, but unto thy Father which is in secret: and thy Father, which seeth in secret, shall reward thee openly.”
—Matthew 6:16-18

Btw, does ‘Father’ in that passage refer to the person who sired us or no? Or is it Clement? Augustine? LOL just joking..

Anyway, here’s what the Amplified Version of Matthew 6:16 says:

“And whenever you are fasting, do not look gloomy like the hypocrites, for they put on a sad and dismal face [like actors, discoloring their faces with ashes or dirt] so that their fasting may be seen by men. I assure you and most solemnly say to you, they [already] have their reward in full.”

Wow..Clown World is REAL! LOL

Genuinely though, no offense intended if anyone does observe this stuff..just trying to encourage people to expand their horizons beyond what the gatekeepers of denominational building-based religion have fed us is all. Ahhh, what am I saying anyways, I’ve gone so far down the rabbit hole of Clown World I dug my way to Buenos Aires LOL.

It started as a tradition where people ate fatty foods one last time before the Lenten fasting.

The fact the world has misappropriated it isn’t an indictment of the original practice itself, but of the world.

My friend, you seemingly have a lot of anger stored up. I understand the frustration with a lot of organisational religious practices, but a lot of your posts are throwing the baby out with the bath water.

 

[timewerx]

Genuinely though, no offense intended if anyone does observe this stuff..just trying to encourage people to expand their horizons beyond what the gatekeepers of denominational building-based religion have fed us is all. Ahhh, what am I saying anyways, I’ve gone so far down the rabbit hole of Clown World I dug my way to Buenos Aires LOL.

I agree, even if they just read the Bible carefully enough, they'll see what many churches do contradict many teachings in the Bible.

Centuries ago, the Orthodoxy were ordering seizure and burning of Bibles, probably afraid if people can read and understand the Bible for themselves, they might see the church isn't exactly doing what Jesus wants us to do.

This is why up to now. It's a standard teaching to tell new converts that they need someone (another person) to guide them when reading the Bible that it's dangerous to do it without expert guidance. Not what 1 John 2:27 says.

And don't think non-denominational groups are better off. Probably not. You have to dig even deeper!

 

[LoveDivine]

It started as a tradition where people ate fatty foods one last time before the Lenten fasting.

The fact the world has misappropriated it isn’t an indictment of the original practice itself, but of the world.

My friend, you seemingly have a lot of anger stored up. I understand the frustration with a lot of organisational religious practices, but a lot of your posts are throwing the baby out with the bath water.

You hit the nail on the head. This thread escalated needlessly, because some have an axe to grind with other Christians. I'm actually very sorry that I even referenced Clement. I wasn't prepared for the scoffing of the church fathers that ensued. It makes me very sad. I can't explain how sorrowful I feel that truly just men who died for the faith were maligned and accused of all manner of untruths. Essentially a bashing session of martyrs and those who were tortured and exiled. I'm horrified that this happened. I think all this thread accomplished was to show non-Christians who may be reading this that Christians hate each other and can't agree on anything. That we delight in proving each other wrong and attacking everyone who has ever been recognized for their service to Christ. We don't even have any mercy on those who claimed to be of our faith. That, and that truth is unknowable in this life, because Christians can't agree on anything. I'm actually really grieved at what this discussion devolved into. I will be deleting all my contributions in this thread. I wish to not be part of this discussion as it has become one of contention, pride, and accusing others. We are to be the salt of the earth, and this thread will cause more to stumble than to desire to become part of this contentious mess we call Christianity. I will be removing myself from this forum as well. I would like to encourage those who remain to discuss and debate to be more thoughtful of what they post. Our words can carry significant weight and cause damage to those who are new to the faith or not yet a Christian. We will be held to account for every word we posted here.

 

[eleos1954]

Excellent points, and so true, everybody sins and comes up short. Which is why the First Century Church Model wasn’t the one man opus we have in modern denominational religious buildings. The local bodies in the NT Church were overseen by multiple elders (Acts 11:30, Acts 14:23, Titus 1:5) because we all need to take correction at times.

What truly matters isn’t the rites, rituals and superficial works that modern weekend religion focuses on anyway, it is the heart that matters to God (2 Corinthians 7:10, Psalm 34:18, Luke 18:13-14, 1 Samuel 16:7, Psalm 51:17, Matthew 15:18-20). Denominational building-based religion is all about outward appearances. Many adherents of the modern religious system have the words; but they ain’t got the ‘music’ so to speak. In public they’ll act all holy, virtuous, and charming for the crowd, but behind closed doors is where a person’s true colors are shown.

On the other hand, I’ve known many people who barely, or do not even know the words at all. But they do have the ‘music’ if that makes any sense. That is so interesting to me, and it is hard for me to articulate in my own words what I believe God is trying to teach me in all of that, but it brings to mind Matthew Ch. 23, and the sheep/goats parable at the end of Matthew 25. As well as Philippians 3:1-3, where Paul refers to false teachers as dogs and evildoers, and warns the brethren to steer clear of those who fixate on religious rites. True worship is in the Spirit, how one lives their life..not practicing religious traditions.

The greatest enemies of the Lord Jesus Christ during His earthly ministry weren’t the drunkards, tax collectors, prostitutes, gluttons, Roman government, etc. His greatest enemies were the hypocrite religious leaders, and a false disciple who betrayed Him. I believe the same applies today. Manmade religion and false converts are the biggest enemies of Christ, same now as it was then.

Ecclesiastes 1:9
“The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.”

In other words, history repeats itself.

Philippians 3:18-19
“(For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)“

That is true it is the not-so-obvious to be aware of, but they can easily be spotted as well. By how they respond to well meaning constructive criticism. We all need correction at times.

“Reprove not a scorner, lest he hate thee: rebuke a wise man, and he will love thee.” —Proverbs 9:8

Plenty modern pastors and their disciples love to dish it out, just can’t take it.

well written ...

That is true it is the not-so-obvious to be aware of, but they can easily be spotted as well.

Yes they can be .... IF .... one study's His Word for themselves .... many do not do that.

Satan's playbook is deception ... if possible even the elect. Prove all things.

He told them, “Prove all things…” (1 Thessalonians 5:21). The word “prove” is the Greek word dokimadzo, which means to approve after testing. In other words, don't simply believe everything you hear no matter where you hear it. Test it before you accept it. Professing Christians test it (should test it) by using His written word and that which is taught must align with it.

That being said ... God does work on the heart of everyone and only He knows it. Only He has perfect judgement ... AMEN!!

2 Corinthians 11:13-15​

For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. So it is no surprise if his servants, also, disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds.

We should remain mindful of this at all times.

Praying all will diligently and carefully study and be lead by the Holy Spirit. Amen

 

[GodBeMercifulToMeASinner]

It started as a tradition where people ate fatty foods one last time before the Lenten fasting.

The fact the world has misappropriated it isn’t an indictment of the original practice itself, but of the world.

My friend, you seemingly have a lot of anger stored up. I understand the frustration with a lot of organisational religious practices, but a lot of your posts are throwing the baby out with the bath water.

Ahh, come on partner..with your anger/frustration accusations, you are either very mistaken, or you are gaslighting and projecting for the sake of the authorized narrative of weekend building-based religion haha..there is definitely no anger or frustration on my part. Quite the opposite actually. Maybe others here are angry, who knows, I honestly haven’t read all the posts here. I just want to uphold God’s Word and encourage people to maybe reconsider the manmade doctrines and traditions of weekend building-based religion.

Throwing the baby out with the bath water? LOL, there ain’t no baby! Haha. The biggest enemies of the Lord Jesus Christ during His earthly ministry were who? The gatekeepers of manmade religion (Mark 7:6-9, Matthew 15:3) as well as a false disciple who sold Him out. Nothing new under the sun, and as it was it will be again (Ecclesiastes 1:9).

The world hasn’t misappropriated anything. You’ve got it backwards actually. Every one of the holidays of denominational manmade religion were appropriated by the gatekeepers of churchianity. They all have pagan origins of fertility god worship, sun god worship, and worship of other false idols. Like today for example..the gatekeepers of manmade religion appropriated the pagan Roman fertility festival of Lupercalia and renamed it Valentine’s Day.

Where does the Lord Jesus Christ tell us to observe ‘Lenten’? Nowhere. But the Bible does say this, note the bold writing:

“Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.” —1 Timothy 4:1

Furthermore, one of the ‘church fathers’ (so-called) said this:

"Our fast at any other time is voluntary; but during Lent, we sin if we do not fast." —Augustine of Hippo

Yeah ok Boomer LOL. That isn’t in the scriptures, but this is:

“For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.” —Matthew 23:4

“And he said, Woe unto you also, ye lawyers! for ye lade men with burdens grievous to be borne, and ye yourselves touch not the burdens with one of your fingers.” —Luke 11:46

“But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?” —Matthew 15:3

Several of those ‘church fathers’ (so-called) also commanded people not to marry, just a side note to go with what was also prophesied in 1 Timothy 4:3.

By eliminating the clutter and false ways of manmade religion, along with the wolves, the goats, the tares, the hypocrites..doors to abundance will open, I guarantee. Maybe not right away, but they will eventually. I’m not condemning anyone who wants to give their wife some flowers or candies today or whatever. Or if someone wants to fast. The point is to encourage people to search the scriptures to see if what the gatekeepers of weekend building based religion are teaching them are true (John 5:39, Acts 17:11).

“For thou, LORD, wilt bless the righteous; with favour wilt thou compass him as with a shield.” —Psalm 5:12

“And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.” —Ephesians 5:11

At any rate, I am going to eat some fatty meats tonight. Burgers, or steak perhaps..cut with the sharp two edged sword from some sacred cows fresh out of the slaughterhouse hahaha..delicious!

 

[timewerx]

Ahh, come on partner..with your anger/frustration accusations, you are either very mistaken, or you are gaslighting and projecting for the sake of the authorized narrative of weekend building-based religion haha..there is definitely no anger or frustration on my part. Quite the opposite actually. Maybe others here are angry, who knows, I honestly haven’t read all the posts here. I just want to uphold God’s Word and encourage people to maybe reconsider the manmade doctrines and traditions of weekend building-based religion.

Throwing the baby out with the bath water? LOL, there ain’t no baby! Haha. The biggest enemies of the Lord Jesus Christ during His earthly ministry were who? The gatekeepers of manmade religion (Mark 7:6-9, Matthew 15:3) as well as a false disciple who sold Him out. Nothing new under the sun, and as it was it will be again (Ecclesiastes 1:9).

The world hasn’t misappropriated anything. You’ve got it backwards actually. Every one of the holidays of denominational manmade religion were appropriated by the gatekeepers of churchianity. They all have pagan origins of fertility god worship, sun god worship, and worship of other false idols. Like today for example..the gatekeepers of manmade religion appropriated the pagan Roman fertility festival of Lupercalia and renamed it Valentine’s Day.

Where does the Lord Jesus Christ tell us to observe ‘Lenten’? Nowhere. But the Bible does say this, note the bold writing:

“Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.” —1 Timothy 4:1

Furthermore, one of the ‘church fathers’ (so-called) said this:

"Our fast at any other time is voluntary; but during Lent, we sin if we do not fast." —Augustine of Hippo

Yeah ok Boomer LOL. That isn’t in the scriptures, but this is:

“For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.” —Matthew 23:4

“And he said, Woe unto you also, ye lawyers! for ye lade men with burdens grievous to be borne, and ye yourselves touch not the burdens with one of your fingers.” —Luke 11:46

“But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?” —Matthew 15:3

Several of those ‘church fathers’ (so-called) also commanded people not to marry, just a side note to go with what was also prophesied in 1 Timothy 4:3.

By eliminating the clutter and false ways of manmade religion, along with the wolves, the goats, the tares, the hypocrites..doors to abundance will open, I guarantee. Maybe not right away, but they will eventually. I’m not condemning anyone who wants to give their wife some flowers or candies today or whatever. Or if someone wants to fast. The point is to encourage people to search the scriptures to see if what the gatekeepers of weekend building based religion are teaching them are true (John 5:39, Acts 17:11).

“For thou, LORD, wilt bless the righteous; with favour wilt thou compass him as with a shield.” —Psalm 5:12

“And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.” —Ephesians 5:11

At any rate, I am going to eat some fatty meats tonight. Burgers, or steak perhaps..cut with the sharp two edged sword from some sacred cows fresh out of the slaughterhouse hahaha..delicious!

The problem with religion in general is that people are more afraid of hell or other punishment or love the reward more than seeking the truth.

So they would rather believe anything that saves them from a horrible fate.

I'm not saying Hell or Heaven isn't real but just saying how far people will go to seek the truth. How much are they willing to sacrifice, perhaps, even the soul.

Love the Lord your God with all your......soul. The Word (truth) is God (John 1:1). If you cannot risk your soul in order to know the truth then you cannot have the truth because the devil can threaten your soul in order to make you believe a false doctrine. In fact, most of the issues of this religion stems from it.

 

[ThisIsMe123]

I will be removing myself from this forum as well. I would like to encourage those who remain to discuss and debate to be more thoughtful of what they post. Our words can carry significant weight and cause damage to those who are new to the faith or not yet a Christian. We will be held to account for every word we posted here.

Wow, you've been a long time member, Yankee. I am surprise no one has yet to quote her post regarding her leaving this message board altogether, much less this discussion.

However, you'll see this in just about every message board in existence on the Internet, and sometimes the topic isn't regarding Christianity either, it just becomes a back and forth, walls of TLDR (Too Long Didn't Read) texts where people argue into oblivion. Notice here, there's probably only a handful of the same people arguing here. So what they type here doesn't carry much weight in the grand scheme of things per Yankee Girl's posts (I concur with her).

The old meme where, "Winning an argument on the Internet" used to go around regarding this. Some how it's all about trying to be right....on the Internet.

 

[GodBeMercifulToMeASinner]

The problem with religion in general is that people are more afraid of hell or other punishment or love the reward more than seeking the truth.

So they would rather believe anything that saves them from a horrible fate.

I'm not saying Hell or Heaven isn't real but just saying how far people will go to seek the truth. How much are they willing to sacrifice, perhaps, even the soul.

Love the Lord your God with all your......soul. The Word (truth) is God (John 1:1). If you cannot risk your soul in order to know the truth then you cannot have the truth because the devil can threaten your soul in order to make you believe a false doctrine. In fact, most of the issues of this religion stems from it.

Yes generally I agree, some good points you mention. But as for the religion in God’s Word described in James 1:27, there are no problems at all. Selflessness. True, the problem with manmade religion, like you say..many people view their adherence to a false denominational religious system as a ‘get out of hell free card’. Or to be able to use God as their personal ‘genie in a bottle’ to grant all their requests. All about self. And it is dead, impotent, in vain (Matthew 15:7-9).

You’re right, the Christian Faith should definitely be about seeking the truth. Also seeking to do God’s will, as well as spread His truth to others, boldly contend for the Faith, having concern for the souls and wellbeing of others, and being grateful for His mercy and graciousness. But the weekend building-based religious system is more about idolatry of manmade doctrines, manmade traditions, modern pastors, and especially CONTROL. Control of the narrative, control of the people, and even control of their money. But God’s people have freedom in Christ (Galatians 5:1). Like you said, it seems the manmade religious system is pretty much the opposite of what Christ and His NT 1st Century Church established. So much of the New Testament teaches against manmade religious traditions, false teachers, serving mammon.

“Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.”
—Colossians 2:8

The truth is hidden in plain sight. It’s right there in the scriptures for all to see, 1 Timothy 4:1-3 prophesied demonic doctrines that pushed things such as unholy fasting and forbidding to marry. Doctrines that the ‘church fathers’ (so-called) invented. And the title they are uplifted with is also unbiblical (Matthew 23:9). People will actually argue against or become upset about what is written right in God’s word in favor of manmade religious traditions (Matthew 15:3) and uphold the false teachers who invented them.

What you said about ‘non-denominational’ building-based religion is also true. After all, they are also based upon the same foundation as the denominational religions. They’re part of the same system. All of the protestant religions were fathered by the Roman Catholic religion..they all carry multiple practices of the Roman religion to varying degrees, ‘non-denominational’ included.

The honest truth is, I rarely come across anyone who doesn’t identify as a Christian having issues with most of the teachings of the Lord Jesus Christ..even the most woke of woke leftists. The problem these people have with the Christian Faith stems from the hypocrites..bad experiences they’ve had with adherents of manmade religion, and I can definitely empathize with them. It seems to me, oddly enough, it is those within manmade religion who have problems with what the Lord Jesus Christ taught more so than the ‘pagans’. Brings to mind this passage:

“But what think ye? A certain man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work to day in my vineyard. He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented, and went. And he came to the second, and said likewise. And he answered and said, I go, sir: and went not. Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you. For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not: but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen it, repented not afterward, that ye might believe him.” —Matthew 21:28-32

Keep seeking truth. Seek and ye shall find.

 

[timewerx]

Wow, you've been a long time member, Yankee. I am surprise no one has yet to quote her post regarding her leaving this message board altogether, much less this discussion.

However, you'll see this in just about every message board in existence on the Internet, and sometimes the topic isn't regarding Christianity either, it just becomes a back and forth, walls of TLDR (Too Long Didn't Read) texts where people argue into oblivion. Notice here, there's probably only a handful of the same people arguing here. So what they type here doesn't carry much weight in the grand scheme of things per Yankee Girl's posts (I concur with her).

The old meme where, "Winning an argument on the Internet" used to go around regarding this. Some how it's all about trying to be right....on the Internet.

It's customary for some to do this on boards to commit themselves into not helping to needlessly prolong a discussion anymore.

It helps commit to what they hope to do.

It's very tempting to get sucked into a discussion you're passionate about and difficult to get out.

So what they type here doesn't carry much weight in the grand scheme of things per Yankee Girl's posts (I concur with her).

It does. Never underestimate the power of one man or woman. It only takes one right person at the right moment to change the world for everyone. One person who could be influenced by this discussion could change the world someday.

 

[timewerx]

Yes generally I agree, some good points you mention. But as for the religion in God’s Word described in James 1:27, there are no problems at all. Selflessness. True, the problem with manmade religion, like you say..many people view their adherence to a false denominational religious system as a ‘get out of hell free card’. Or to be able to use God as their personal ‘genie in a bottle’ to grant all their requests. All about self. And it is dead, impotent, in vain (Matthew 15:7-9).

You’re right, the Christian Faith should definitely be about seeking the truth. Also seeking to do God’s will, as well as spread His truth to others, boldly contend for the Faith, having concern for the souls and wellbeing of others, and being grateful for His mercy and graciousness. But the weekend building-based religious system is more about idolatry of manmade doctrines, manmade traditions, modern pastors, and especially CONTROL. Control of the narrative, control of the people, and even control of their money. But God’s people have freedom in Christ (Galatians 5:1). Like you said, it seems the manmade religious system is pretty much the opposite of what Christ and His NT 1st Century Church established. So much of the New Testament teaches against manmade religious traditions, false teachers, serving mammon.

“Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.”
—Colossians 2:8

The truth is hidden in plain sight. It’s right there in the scriptures for all to see, 1 Timothy 4:1-3 prophesied demonic doctrines that pushed things such as unholy fasting and forbidding to marry. Doctrines that the ‘church fathers’ (so-called) invented. And the title they are uplifted with is also unbiblical (Matthew 23:9). People will actually argue against or become upset about what is written right in God’s word in favor of manmade religious traditions (Matthew 15:3) and uphold the false teachers who invented them.

What you said about ‘non-denominational’ building-based religion is also true. After all, they are also based upon the same foundation as the denominational religions. They’re part of the same system. All of the protestant religions were fathered by the Roman Catholic religion..they all carry multiple practices of the Roman religion to varying degrees, ‘non-denominational’ included.

The honest truth is, I rarely come across anyone who doesn’t identify as a Christian having issues with most of the teachings of the Lord Jesus Christ..even the most woke of woke leftists. The problem these people have with the Christian Faith stems from the hypocrites..bad experiences they’ve had with adherents of manmade religion, and I can definitely empathize with them. It seems to me, oddly enough, it is those within manmade religion who have problems with what the Lord Jesus Christ taught more so than the ‘pagans’. Brings to mind this passage:

“But what think ye? A certain man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work to day in my vineyard. He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented, and went. And he came to the second, and said likewise. And he answered and said, I go, sir: and went not. Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you. For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not: but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen it, repented not afterward, that ye might believe him.” —Matthew 21:28-32

Keep seeking truth. Seek and ye shall find.

I came to a realization after so many years that everyone, including Christians believes in at least one lie in terms of what's right and what's wrong. We're born and grew up into it and now we think the lie is the truth.

It helped reinforced what I read in 1 John 2:27 and John 16:13.