When Sinless?

[RandyPNW]

I believe that the Sin Nature exists not just within the physical body, but also within the human spirit. When we die, the Lost continue to have their sinful spirits, but do the Saved lose their Sin Nature when they lose their body?

Do we become Sinless only when Christ Comes Again with the Resurrection, or do we become Sinless as soon as we die?

If so, how is this possible before the Resurrection? I don't know the answer yet. I'd like some intelligent, informed input. Thank you.

 

[th1bill]

I believe that the Sin Nature exists not just within the physical body, but also within the human spirit. When we die, the Lost continue to have their sinful spirits, but do the Saved lose their Sin Nature when they lose their body?

Do we become Sinless only when Christ Comes Again with the Resurrection, or do we become Sinless as soon as we die?

If so, how is this possible before the Resurrection? I don't know the answer yet. I'd like some intelligent, informed input. Thank you.

As I understand Scripture we will not sin in the Glorified Body.

 

[RandyPNW]

As I understand Scripture we will not sin in the Glorified Body.

I agree, but my thought was that we don't receive the Glorified Body until Christ comes back. Are we "sinful" between our death and our resurrection? Some feel we will be "asleep," but I believe we will be "with the Lord," concious and awake before the Resurrection.

It is believed that when we die we stop sinning. But the Lost obviously remain sinful, even if not sinning. When does our Sin Nature stop--at death or only at the Glorification?

 

[bling]

I believe that the Sin Nature exists not just within the physical body, but also within the human spirit. When we die, the Lost continue to have their sinful spirits, but do the Saved lose their Sin Nature when they lose their body?

Do we become Sinless only when Christ Comes Again with the Resurrection, or do we become Sinless as soon as we die?

If so, how is this possible before the Resurrection? I don't know the answer yet. I'd like some intelligent, informed input. Thank you.

We sin because there are tons of ways to sin, the result of having knowledge of good and evil.
The rich man died and still felt he could virtually order Lazarus around (have him go down to my brothers.)
With indwelling Holy Spirit and Godly type Love you can keep from sinning now.

 

[th1bill]

I agree, but my thought was that we don't receive the Glorified Body until Christ comes back. Are we "sinful" between our death and our resurrection? Some feel we will be "asleep," but I believe we will be "with the Lord," concious and awake before the Resurrection.

It is believed that when we die we stop sinning. But the Lost obviously remain sinful, even if not sinning. When does our Sin Nature stop--at death or only at the Glorification?

That doesn't work for me for to die the Natural Death is to be present with Christ.

 

[KevinT]

I believe that the Sin Nature exists not just within the physical body, but also within the human spirit. When we die, the Lost continue to have their sinful spirits, but do the Saved lose their Sin Nature when they lose their body?

Do we become Sinless only when Christ Comes Again with the Resurrection, or do we become Sinless as soon as we die?

If so, how is this possible before the Resurrection? I don't know the answer yet. I'd like some intelligent, informed input. Thank you.

I hold a minority view. @tonychanyt has described it with the best term yet I have heard: "Soul Zip." Our souls (our personhood) is zipped up and safely kept by God until the time of the resurrection. This zipped soul is not conscious, so sinning or not sinning is not a needed consideration.

By the way, I came across this great video just this morning by NT Wright. I believe he is a member of the Anglican church, and there are a few points that are present here that I don't exactly agree with (but he is SO CLOSE ) , but overall I think it was a fascinating presentation and discussion of what happens when one dies.

Kevin

 

[tonychanyt]

the Sin Nature exists not just within the physical body, but also within the human spirit.

Check out Where is my Paraclete? and follow up there

 

[Fervent]

I don't think giving an ontological status to sin as something that exists is really justified. Sin is a non-thing, an uncreative force. Nonbeing. Not something that can reside within a nature or even have a nature unto itself, but finds expression when our human nature is divorced from the Divine source that gives us our being. So the more fully in the presence of God we become, the more fully realized our being is, the more sin evaporates.

 

[eleos1954]

I believe that the Sin Nature exists not just within the physical body, but also within the human spirit. When we die, the Lost continue to have their sinful spirits, but do the Saved lose their Sin Nature when they lose their body?

Do we become Sinless only when Christ Comes Again with the Resurrection, or do we become Sinless as soon as we die?

If so, how is this possible before the Resurrection? I don't know the answer yet. I'd like some intelligent, informed input. Thank you.

We are not immortal ... the confusion comes from not understanding that fact. We do not have a "immortal soul" that goes somewhere, rather we are a soul .... a living being.

All have sinned ... death exists because of sin (transgression of the law). Our sin nature is a spiritual condition but effects the material. The sin nature is that aspect in man that makes him rebellious against God.

We are conceived and born into a sinful world and are exposed to sin and therefore all will sin ... this is our natural condition.

The bible teaches that death is a dormant state of being (described as a sleep) .... described that way so we can understand final judgement and the resurrections. It makes perfect sense that death is described as a dormant sleep because the Lord does indeed have the power of resurrection (of the save and the lost). All will be resurrected one day ... some to eternal life (exist for eternity) and some to eternal death (not exist for eternity) Those in the first resurrection will be resurrected (cleansed) without sin .... those in the 2nd resurrection will not.

What causes us to sin? (transgression of the law) It starts with Temptation from the devil. We will be recreated anew (1st resurrection)... yes ... sinless (cleansed from all our previous sins-through the blood of Jesus) but also God (in His final judgement - yet to come) will destroy satan and his minions so there will be no temptation. Like Adam and Eve were created before they fell to the temptation of satan were without sin.

When Jesus returns the saved are taken to heaven ... those left on earth are destroyed and the earth is left in a desolate condition ... but this is not the full end.

Those in the first resurrection and at that time go to heaven for 1,000 years (and onward).... After 1,000 years God then raises the unsaved and they are destroyed for eternity. They are not cleansed and retain their sin and therefore are destroyed.

Here are some verses to ponder

What Does the Bible Say About The First Resurrection?

James 1:14-15 KJV​

KJV
but every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Every day we battle against the temptation of the devil ... but will indeed fall prey to it sometime or another ... so we are SO thankful for our Lord Jesus Christ and His redemptive powers.

We are in the constant condition of overcoming evil ... constantly in a war zone of good verses evil. The war does not end until Jesus returns.

The REAL war is between God and Satan ... and only God himself can end it ... and one day He will. AMEN!!!!

Ephesians 6:12 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. 12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

 

[timothyu]

Both grain and weeds produce seeds, but only the grain will be allowed to sprout in the next season of creation. This crop (who we are) will determine that outcome.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

I believe that the Sin Nature exists not just within the physical body, but also within the human spirit. When we die, the Lost continue to have their sinful spirits, but do the Saved lose their Sin Nature when they lose their body?

Do we become Sinless only when Christ Comes Again with the Resurrection, or do we become Sinless as soon as we die?

If so, how is this possible before the Resurrection? I don't know the answer yet. I'd like some intelligent, informed input. Thank you.

Your question is answered in Catholic theology by the doctrine of purgatory. The doctrine of purgatory explains what happens between death and the final state as well as what happens between an individuals death and the time when that individual stands in the presence of God.

The answer to your question then is that upon death Christians still have sinful characteristics, they're not guilty of sin and they will not suffer for sin but those characteristics need to be purged and the tendency towards sin needs to be purged; your desire to sin has to be gone.

How the purging takes place and how long it takes are separate questions.

 

[RandyPNW]

Your question is answered in Catholic theology by the doctrine of purgatory. The doctrine of purgatory explains what happens between death and the final state as well as what happens between an individuals death and the time when that individual stands in the presence of God.

The answer to your question then is that upon death Christians still have sinful characteristics, they're not guilty of sin and they will not suffer for sin but those characteristics need to be purged and the tendency towards sin needs to be purged; your desire to sin has to be gone.

How the purging takes place and how long it takes are separate questions.

Although I don't have a personal theology of Purgatory I do tend to agree with some elements of what you describe. I think it very possible that the human spirits, even of righteous people, remain essentially sinful after death. And that's because it may be that sin is finally expunged from the righteous only at the 2nd Coming of Christ.

So between our deaths and the 2nd Coming, Christians are spirits who have received a New Nature from Christ, but whose spirits are still flawed. The difference would be, in this case, that our spirits cannot really engage in sin, since we don't have new bodies yet. That may be like your Catholic Purgatory?

As a Lutheran we rejected any notion of buying people out of Purgatory, through the sales of Indulgences. But I personally believe that people who have not yet become Christians can do so in the place you call "Purgatory," which I would prefer to call the intermediate state beween death and the new world.

This likely sounds heretical to my Protestant friends and brethren. But it is very likely that God will judge people not on what they do not know, but more on what their consciences have told them in their lives. After death, then, they may be relieved to know they had an answer, but just hadn't been given it yet.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Although I don't have a personal theology of Purgatory I do tend to agree with some elements of what you describe. I think it very possible that the human spirits, even of righteous people, remain essentially sinful after death. And that's because it may be that sin is finally expunged from the righteous only at the 2nd Coming of Christ.

So between our deaths and the 2nd Coming, Christians are spirits who have received a New Nature from Christ, but whose spirits are still flawed. The difference would be, in this case, that our spirits cannot really engage in sin, since we don't have new bodies yet. That may be like your Catholic Purgatory?

As a Lutheran we rejected any notion of buying people out of Purgatory, through the sales of Indulgences. But I personally believe that people who have not yet become Christians can do so in the place you call "Purgatory," which I would prefer to call the intermediate state beween death and the new world.

This likely sounds heretical to my Protestant friends and brethren. But it is very likely that God will judge people not on what they do not know, but more on what their consciences have told them in their lives. After death, then, they may be relieved to know they had an answer, but just hadn't been given it yet.

I think that it's possible to sin without a body, I think that Satan sinned without a body, I think he accused God of lying without a body.

I was thinking about hearing God's speak, I believe that we hear him through other people speaking, that isn't the only way that we can hear him, but it is one way. So, when a doctor, for example, warns you that you have to give up smoking if you want to avoid dying from cancer that is very likely a message from God in the voice of the doctor. It's a warning about a change in lifestyle that you have to make if you wish to continue to live on Earth for a time. I am sure other examples will occur to you just like they also occur to me.

God bless.

 

[RandyPNW]

I think that it's possible to sin without a body, I think that Satan sinned without a body, I think he accused guard of lying without a body.

Good point. However, people have physical bodies, and angels have spirit-bodies, apparently?

So when people die and lose their physical bodies, they cannot commit sins on earth, where physical bodies must exist in order to commit sins. When people die and lose their bodies they are purely bodiless spirits, and exist in an as-yet unfulfilled state, as Paul argued that we are "naked" in that state until the resurrection.

2 Cor 5.For we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands. 2 Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed instead with our heavenly dwelling, 3 because when we are clothed, we will not be found naked.

So for me, it really appears as if after we die we remain "unclothed" with our glorified bodies until the Coming of Christ. It just isn't very explicit for me, which is why I asked the question.

Angels seem to live in a different dimension, though Satan apparently committed his sin of tempting Adam while adopting a physical body on earth, ie the serpent. But this is pretty hypothetical.

I was thinking about hearing God's speak, I believe that we hear him through other people speaking, that isn't the only way that we can hear him but it is one way. So when a doctor, for example, warns you that you have to give up smoking if you want to avoid dying from cancer that is very likely a message from God in the voice of the doctor. It's a warning about a change in lifestyle that you have to make if you wish to continue to live on Earth for a time. I am sure other examples will occur to you just like they also occur to me.

God bless.

Yes, I agree that it is normal for God to speak to us via people and events, or circumstances. We have to determine how God's love approaches each situation that confronts us. That's quite a challenge!