When is lying not sinful?

[razzelflabben]

Actually, morality is subjective to God. God is not subject to morality, morality is subject to God.

For instance, it is God who determines in what context speaking something other than actuality is a lie (immoral) or tactical deception (moral); it is God who determines in what context homicide is murder (immoral) or war (moral).

God makes those determinations--the morality of the acts is subject to Him.

actually morality is subjective to everyone, it is a man made concept. God is about justice. If you don't believe me find one passage in scripture that talks about morality verse those that talk about justice. Just a thought for what it's worth.

 

[AlexDTX]

That is the wrong question. The correct one is: Did Jesus ever sin?

Maybe it is the wrong question, but the question is still vailid. Can anyone show me where Jesus lies in the Gospels? I don't know of any. I am not arguing I am genuinely asking.

 

[Sabertooth]

Can anyone show me where Jesus lies in the Gospels?

The closest thing that I could find was Luke 24:28

As they approached the village to which they were going, Jesus continued on as if he were going farther.

It isn't an outright lie, but it's on the same level as Solomon's "Bring me my sword...!" (And I'm not saying that He sinned, either.)

 

[razzelflabben]

Maybe it is the wrong question, but the question is still vailid. Can anyone show me where Jesus lies in the Gospels? I don't know of any. I am not arguing I am genuinely asking.

I asked about anyone in the NT lying and it being a good thing and the only response was Rahab who is OT...but then again we certainly don't know everything Jesus did remember there wasn't enough paper and ink to write it all down. Point being we don't know if Jesus joked or something like that that some would consider a lie because not everything was recorded. It would be like saying, there is no record of Jesus using the bathroom so we better hold it in...I know, stupid example but hopefully you get the point. We don't even know if Jesus laughed from what is recorded in the NT but I'm betting since God is the God of Joy that He did laugh once in awhile...just saying...

 

[AlexDTX]

The closest thing that I could find was Luke 24:28

It isn't an outright lie, but it's on the level as Solomon's "Bring me my sword...!" (And I'm not saying that He sinned, either.)

Thank you. I thought about that, too. I would call it discretion.

 

[AlexDTX]

I asked about anyone in the NT lying and it being a good thing and the only response was Rahab who is OT...but then again we certainly don't know everything Jesus did remember there wasn't enough paper and ink to write it all down. Point being we don't know if Jesus joked or something like that that some would consider a lie because not everything was recorded. It would be like saying, there is no record of Jesus using the bathroom so we better hold it in...I know, stupid example but hopefully you get the point. We don't even know if Jesus laughed from what is recorded in the NT but I'm betting since God is the God of Joy that He did laugh once in awhile...just saying...

True enough. But I would define lying as deliberate deception. I have a hard time believing that Truth incarnate would lie. I am grateful for the grace that we are all given, because I know I have lied myself, thus that makes me a liar in the legal sense. But when I read all liars will have their part in the Lake of Fire, I know that does not apply to me since my salvation is dependent upon Jesus, not me. Even the Old Testament examples, such as Rahab, grace is given because of her faith in Yahweh. She knew of the 10 plagues and knew the power of God and humbled herself before the spies because she believed God.

As I said in my first response, I want to walk in the wisdom and discretion of Jesus. Jesus can not lie because he is Truth. We are not to lie, either, but praise God for his grace. Jesus showed us that it is possible to live truthfully and not lie.

 

[Apex]

Maybe it is the wrong question, but the question is still vailid. Can anyone show me where Jesus lies in the Gospels? I don't know of any. I am not arguing I am genuinely asking.

It's the wrong question because there are many things that Jesus did and didn't do that are not recorded in the Scriptures. How can we really ever know if Jesus ever spoke something that was not true? What we can know is, if he ever did, it was not a sin.

 

[Apex]

Jesus can not lie because he is Truth.

I did stumble upon this though. I'm sure there are countless attempts to make this into something other than a false statement.

John 7:8-10
"You go up to the feast. I am not going up to this feast, for my time has not yet fully come.” After saying this, he remained in Galilee. But after his brothers had gone up to the feast, then he also went up, not publicly but in private.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The deception in both circumstances was not that Sarah/Sarai was Abraham's/Abram's sister. The deception was that Sarah/Sarai was not Abraham's/Abram's wife. Lots of cultures married their sisters--if she had been both his sister and his wife, that would have been shruggable.

The deception was that she was free to be taken in marriage. People today--unfortunately even Christians-- like to define "lie" according to whether the words depict physical facts--that's Greek epistemology. We in the West are steeped in Greek epistemology.

But God doesn't do Greek epistemology. The fact is that Abram/Abraham used clever wording to deceive two leaders, and God called him on it both times.

Then you have to conclude that Jesus lied by hiding the fact that He was God to many people. He did not reveal a very important truth to people. Jesus specifically told his disciples shortly after Peter said that he was the Son of God, that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ (i.e. the Messiah).

"Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ." (Matthew 16:20).

Jesus also at certain times told people to not tell anyone of the miracles that He was doing.
Jesus deflected the Pharisee's claim against Jesus in the fact that He was claiming to be God.
In reply: Jesus quoted the Old Testament Scripture to them that says, "Ye are gods"? (Which was in reference to the Israelites in being rulers).
Jesus had a mission to protect and to fulfill.
So He could not reveal all truth to everyone.
Not revealing all truth to a person does not mean you are lying.

It is still true that Abram's sister was Sarai.
That was not a lie.
Abram chose to not reveal the truth that she was his wife.
Not revealing a truth is not the same as telling a bold face lie.


...

 

[4x4toy]

What about Abraham's lie?

Check out this article here:

Did Abram Really Lie?

Very interesting.


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I know this is the common belief about Abram and Sarai but I'm not sold on a fact that she was either sister or half-sister based on information in the Bible or either that Cain married his sister

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I did stumble upon this though. I'm sure there are countless attempts to make this into something other than a false statement.

John 7:8-10
"You go up to the feast. I am not going up to this feast, for my time has not yet fully come.” After saying this, he remained in Galilee. But after his brothers had gone up to the feast, then he also went up, not publicly but in private.

Here is a good article that resolves this one.

Did Jesus Lie?


....

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I know this is the common belief about Abram and Sarai but I'm not sold on a fact that she was either sister or half-sister based on information in the Bible or either that Cain married his sister

Abram clearly states that Sarai is his half sister to Pharaoh.
This would have only been a lie if it was not true.
I simply choose to believe Abram in that she was his half sister.


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[Apex]

I know this is the common belief about Abram and Sarai but I'm not sold on a fact that she was either sister or half-sister based on information in the Bible or either that Cain married his sister

"based on information in the Bible"

I'm assuming you mean the Leviticus laws about incest. These laws are not universal laws. They were not in place when Abraham or Adam and Eve's children were alive. Do you also think Leviticus 18:18 was a universal law? There is no dispute that Jacob married two sisters. I do not think he was in sin though. He simply was not under the Law of Moses. What is your take on all this?

 

[4x4toy]

That, I believe, is saying nothing is, of itself, sin. Drinking is not sin, being a drunkard is sinful. Eating is not sin, being a glutton is sinful.

I can agree but I never understood the gluttony thing, what it is or is there a spiritual parallel ..

 

[Dan61861]

When it is done out of love. If I was in a store and a woman with two young children were in the store as well. Two men come in with guns. Her and the children hide and I know where they have hidden. The two men ask me were she is while waving their pistols in the air. I reply, I'm the only one here. I haven't seen her or the children.

I would not be sinning, I would be acting out of love for her and the children.

In Christ
Daniel

 

[F_lux123]

What about for Joking and jesting? Could you lie without it being wrong. I like to exaggerate sometimes in my jokes but its never deceptive its always pretty obvious but is it still wrong.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The closest thing that I could find was Luke 24:28

It isn't an outright lie, but it's on the same level as Solomon's "Bring me my sword...!" (And I'm not saying that He sinned, either.)

Thank you. I thought about that, too. I would call it discretion.

Lying is saying words that are not truthful in any way.
Luke 12:28 is not a case for this.
Being deceptive with one's movements or in revealing truth on a physical level is not lying or sinful.
We wear clothes. We are hiding truth from people. But that is not sinful.
God can do things that might make us think one thing because of our carnal minds, but God is actually doing something else. That is not sinful in any way.


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[4x4toy]

"based on information in the Bible"

I'm assuming you mean the Leviticus laws about incest. These laws are not universal laws. They were not in place when Abraham or Adam and Eve's children were alive. Do you also think Leviticus 18:18 was a universal law? There is no dispute that Jacob married two sisters. I do not think he was in sin though. He simply was not under the Law of Moses. What is your take on all this?

Well kinda but more important to me is that is Abrams father Terah mentions only that he begot 3 sons with no mention of other sons and daughters, all other patriarchs mention other sons and daughters even Abraham is mentioned having other sons and daughters is all I'm saying .. So the road ends there for me except for speculation .. God told Abimilech ''the woman is his wife''

 

[Bible Highlighter]

When it is done out of love. If I was in a store and a woman with two young children were in the store as well. Two men come in with guns. Her and the children hide and I know where they have hidden. The two men ask me were she is while waving their pistols in the air. I reply, I'm the only one here. I haven't seen her or the children.

I would not be sinning, I would be acting out of love for her and the children.

In Christ
Daniel

But in reality it is still a lie. It is still telling an untruth. A lie is when you say something false. Scripture says it is impossible for God to lie. God tells us to be ye holy as I am holy.
If an attacker who comes into a person's home, and asks if there is anyone in the house, you can say,
"Do you see anyone else here?" "Please feel free to look around."
It would not technically be an outright lie like saying... "no, nobody is here." (if their child was hiding in a closet somewhere). So one does not have to lie if they no how to properly respond.


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[Apex]

Here is a good article that resolves this one.

Did Jesus Lie?


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But Yet, I am unconvinced. I'm an advocate for the critical Greek text. But beyond that, it seems like a stretch. That interpretation, just like the scribal addition of "yet", was formulated to make Jesus' statement true. It doesn't bother me one way or the other though. Jesus' intention here was not a malicious one.