When is lying not sinful?

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That is impossible at this point. It is what I went to school for. I'm hoping to read the Greek NT and the Greek LXX without help one day. It's not as hard as you'd think once you memorize the Greek alphabet and the top 200 most commonly used Greek words in the Bible. Well....grammar is hard. Sometimes you just have to flex those thinking muscles.

But if you are not among a Greek culture among the actual people, then that would be like trying to build an airplane on your own by looking at the blueprints just yourself. A school is just telling you to study the materials. They are not putting you into the real life environment of real talking and writing scenarios so as to get by with the locals of Greece. But it is even more than that. Once you understood Modern Greek, then you can start to move on to study Ancient Biblical Greek based on what you know about Modern Greek. In other words, it is like trying to teach a person who is from China in understanding 1600's English just by giving him a book. They need to first understand Late Modern English (i.e. the English we speak today) so as to grasp 1600's English. For the 1600's English is a dead language and is best understood by knowing English that we speak today.


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4x4toy

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I joke around a lot with my wife and we laugh and it does not involve deception.
Granted, I am not perfect sometimes and I do slip up on occasion.
But I strive to always be truthful in my words, even while joking around.


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Agree and God sees the intent of our heart , he also corrects
 
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Apex

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During that time, the genetic code was stronger (untainted yet by sin). Also, God did not place any prohibitions on marrying those who are close of kin during these early years until the written Law. For how do you think the world populated from Adam and then yet again with Noah?



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It was a probing question. I'm actually not against incest in some contexts. The case of Abraham and Sarah is one case we probably both agree on. However, I don't think Leviticus 18 had anything to do with genetic code, the whole passage is about sexual property rights. Elevated risk for genetic disorders is not a reason to prevent pregnancy. We don't tell women who are past 45 years of age it is a sin to get pregnant even though the risk of Down Syndrome drastically increases. Nor do we tell this to the 25 year old who has sickle cell anemia. But I am steering off topic.

On another note, I have found 100% proof Jesus did lie.

Mark 4:37-38
And a great windstorm arose, and the waves were breaking into the boat, so that the boat was already filling. But he was in the stern, asleep on the cushion.

Jesus is clearly lying here!
 
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Dan61861

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But Yet, I am unconvinced. :smirk: I'm an advocate for the critical Greek text. But beyond that, it seems like a stretch. That interpretation, just like the scribal addition of "yet", was formulated to make Jesus' statement true. It doesn't bother me one way or the other though. Jesus' intention here was not a malicious one.
Imo, I think Jesus was saying, no I'm not going with you to display miracles. Because it wasn't His time. So He went up secretly.

In Christ
Daniel
 
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razzelflabben

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True enough. But I would define lying as deliberate deception. I have a hard time believing that Truth incarnate would lie.
oh I agree just saying it would be hard to make a case the way you were going. In fact, Jesus as God incarnate and God not being able to lie would tell us a whole lot about the topic at hand, much more than asking for an example when it can so easily be argued that not everything is recorded.

Also, I think the definition you give is a good one and worthy of addressing so as not to split hairs....thanks for offering it.
I am grateful for the grace that we are all given, because I know I have lied myself, thus that makes me a liar in the legal sense. But when I read all liars will have their part in the Lake of Fire, I know that does not apply to me since my salvation is dependent upon Jesus, not me. Even the Old Testament examples, such as Rahab, grace is given because of her faith in Yahweh. She knew of the 10 plagues and knew the power of God and humbled herself before the spies because she believed God.
amen...one thing I haven't seen much of on this thread is the understanding that in the OT, that is before Christ, their faith was counted as righteousness...today we have the HS to help us be righteous. A HS that is received through faith
As I said in my first response, I want to walk in the wisdom and discretion of Jesus. Jesus can not lie because he is Truth. We are not to lie, either, but praise God for his grace. Jesus showed us that it is possible to live truthfully and not lie.
how to do you feel about my response to the question?
 
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It was a probing question. I'm actually not against incest in some contexts. The case of Abraham and Sarah is one case we probably both agree on. However, I don't think Leviticus 18 had anything to do with genetic code, the whole passage is about sexual property rights. Elevated risk for genetic disorders is not a reason to prevent pregnancy. We don't tell women who are past 45 years of age it is a sin to get pregnant even though the risk of Down Syndrome drastically increases. Nor do we tell this to the 25 year old who has sickle cell anemia. But I am steering off topic.

On another note, I have found 100% proof Jesus did lie.

Mark 4:37-38
And a great windstorm arose, and the waves were breaking into the boat, so that the boat was already filling. But he was in the stern, asleep on the cushion.

Jesus is clearly lying here!

We see man lived to be hundreds of years old in the beginning. But by the time of the written law, man was no longer living hundreds of years old. It is reasonable to assume that man's genetics and blood could not tolerate the marrying close of kin (at this point), as well. The incest laws as written in the Law of Moses still apply today. There is no exception outside these written laws (as they are written).

As for Jesus lying:
Well, if Jesus lied, then we are doomed. 1 Peter 2:22 says deceit was not found in his mouth.
1 John 3:5 says in him was no sin.
Jesus could not be our spotless lamb of God to take away our sins if he sinned by lying.
Your logic is seriously flawed here.


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Apex

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We see man lived to be hundreds of years old in the beginning. But by the time of the written law, man was no longer living hundreds of years old. It is reasonable to assume that man's genetics and blood could not tolerate the marrying close of kin (at this point), as well.

As for Jesus lying:
Well, if Jesus lied, then we are doomed. 1 Peter 2:22 says deceit was not found in his mouth.
1 John 3:5 says in him was no sin.
Jesus could not be our spotless lamb of God to take away our sins if he sinned by lying.
Your logic is seriously flawed here.


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It's a joke. He is lying down.
 
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Dan61861

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Another interesting point ''love covers a multitude of sins'' .. Love from the the one being sinned against or the one sinning or both ?
I would be lying, not for myself. I would be lying to protect the woman and her children. It would be love for her and the children. I, myself would gain nothing.

In Christ
Daniel
 
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It's a joke. He is lying down.

Okay. I just read the verse. I gotcha now. Lying as in the position of the body by him sleeping. I get it.

What you did is a perfect example of misdirection (and yet being blameless).
I was led to think you were saying something else (by not reading the verse), and you were talking about another thing using a homonym. You were still telling the truth in this instance, and thus you were blameless.

Jesus did this also.
He said to the Pharisees, "Ye are gods." as a misdirection away from his claim to deity so He could accomplish His mission.


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I would be lying, not for myself. I would be lying to protect the woman and her children. It would be love for her and the children. I, myself would gain nothing.

In Christ
Daniel

Evil is still evil regardless of whether or not your ultimate goal is righteous.
Many of the best villians of a story that you see in movies today are those villians who do evil things for a righteous cause or purpose. They think the ends justifies the means.

For example: The villian Magneto in the X-men films does certain evils for the greater good of his people (i.e. mutants as a whole). But he is still a villian and he is doing evil things. He is a bad guy. God does not want us to be like a Magneto or something.

For example: Instead of inserting the word "lying" into the blank line below. Put in other evils such as child abuse, rape, murder, drunkenness, hating of one's brother, etc.

So in order for me to protect my family, I will engage in __________ so as that no harm may come to them.

In other words, the ends does not justify the means.


Side Note:

Please take note that I am not endorsing you to watch secular movies or the X-men films. As a Christian, I have stopped watching these films. I am merely using these things as an example for you to understand. May God bless you; And please be well in the Lord.


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Is it sinful to play bluffing games? My favorite party game is Resistance.

If it is a game where one is forced to say deceptive words, then I would steer clear of it.
If one is merely hiding their cards like in UNO, there is nothing wrong in that.

I prefer now to stay with Bible based games myself.

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AlexDTX

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oh I agree just saying it would be hard to make a case the way you were going. In fact, Jesus as God incarnate and God not being able to lie would tell us a whole lot about the topic at hand, much more than asking for an example when it can so easily be argued that not everything is recorded.

Also, I think the definition you give is a good one and worthy of addressing so as not to split hairs....thanks for offering it. amen...one thing I haven't seen much of on this thread is the understanding that in the OT, that is before Christ, their faith was counted as righteousness...today we have the HS to help us be righteous. A HS that is received through faith
how to do you feel about my response to the question?
I am in agreement. The splitting of hairs to say that Jesus did not sin as opposed to his have somehow lied is obfuscation. He is Truth and wants us to walk in truth. We are to speak the truth in love. Which brings up another discussion in of itself. What does it mean to speak the truth in love? If we do fall back on lying then his grace is still there, but his preference is that we never lie.
 
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RDKirk

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Then you have to conclude that Jesus lied by hiding the fact that He was God to many people. ..

The way you keep using that word "lie" betrays to me that you are locked into Greek epistemology--or are insisting on keeping this discussion locked in Greek epistemology for the sake of your own argument rather than achieving an understanding of spiritual context and principles.
 
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RDKirk

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"based on information in the Bible"

I'm assuming you mean the Leviticus laws about incest. These laws are not universal laws. They were not in place when Abraham or Adam and Eve's children were alive. Do you also think Leviticus 18:18 was a universal law? There is no dispute that Jacob married two sisters. I do not think he was in sin though. He simply was not under the Law of Moses. What is your take on all this?

That God has foundational principles that He has not always bound all men strictly to at all times.
 
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RDKirk

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Lying is saying words that are not truthful in any way.
Luke 12:28 is not a case for this.
Being deceptive with one's movements or in revealing truth on a physical level is not lying or sinful.
We wear clothes. We are hiding truth from people. But that is not sinful.
God can do things that might make us think one thing because of our carnal minds, but God is actually doing something else. That is not sinful in any way.


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So your understanding of "lie" is that one may freely be deceptive without it being sin...as long as he doesn't actually speak specific words that are not factual. Is that what you're saying?
 
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razzelflabben

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I am in agreement. The splitting of hairs to say that Jesus did not sin as opposed to his have somehow lied is obfuscation. He is Truth and wants us to walk in truth. We are to speak the truth in love. Which brings up another discussion in of itself. What does it mean to speak the truth in love? If we do fall back on lying then his grace is still there, but his preference is that we never lie.
I have been in full time deep study of Biblical Love for about 10 years now and still going strong. The one thing I keep coming back to when asked questions like yours above, "What does it mean to speak the truth in Love?" is that Love has a purpose. The purpose of Love is reconciliation/restoration first with God then with one another. If the purpose of the speaking the truth is that of reconciliation/restoration and it is done in the humility of Love complete with covenant and the putting of the other person above our own interests, it's spoken in Love.

To clarify a bit, the best definition (not characteristics) we can come up with for Biblical Love is...putting another above ourselves in an act of humility creating a covenant whose intent/purpose is reconciliation/restoration.

It is wise to always ask ourselves what the purpose of the words we speak are...before speaking. We are to be quick to listen, slow to speak and slow to anger after all...amen..nice chat, thanks
 
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