When is it gonna be enough?

[mama2one]

x

 

[Radagast]

Yes, are we talking five or fifteen?

A five year old should know better.

Here, one of our kindergartens (in a rural area where guns were present) ran a toy-gun license programme for kindergarten kids. There were lessons on gun safety (never point a gun at a person or an animal) and only children who passed got a license to carry a toy gun. If they ever pointed a toy gun at a person or a dog or a cat, the license was revoked.

Those kids graduated kindergarten with a good set of gun safety instincts. I believe that a similar programme exists in rural areas of NZ.

 

[dogs4thewin]

So you have a few armed teachers in a school. How is that different than guards? I'd say the difference is that the guards could focus on guarding and the teachers could focus on teaching. What an idea!

because armed guards can only be so many places and odds are if they were "stationed" people would know where that was whereas with concealed carry you would not know who was and was not armed ( which would mean that you could not really avoid what you had no way of knowing. It MAY work if you had say an armed guard that basically walked up and down each hallway all day long, but at your larger schools that would be a bit hard and costly. You would really need two to ensure there was ALWAYS someone there.

 

[Resha Caner]

maybe, also kids who make threats at school (as often happens before incidents) need to be treated seriously

a young kid at our elementary school making threats was reported by some kids
the school called the police and the kid was disciplined by the police and school (parents got a letter about it)

No, no, no. You should have pulled out a gun and shot him. (that's sarcasm BTW).

 

[Resha Caner]

because armed guards can only be so many places ...

Wow. You really don't get it. If only some of the teachers are armed, they can only be so many places as well - stationed in their classrooms I would guess. It's no different than having guards ... except for the proper focus, as I mentioned.

 

[dogs4thewin]

maybe, also kids who make threats at school (as often happens before incidents) need to be treated seriously

a young kid at our elementary school making threats was reported by some kids
the school called the police and the kid was disciplined by the police and school (parents got a letter about it)

They certainly should, but that has more to do with authorities than any gun messures we could take.

 

[Andrew Jeremiah]

Well, in a way you are both right. God hates violence, but realizes that in a fallen world that is sometimes what it takes to bring peace.

How do you know God hates violence?

A great deal of violence in Scripture and history is perpetrated by God.

 

[expos4ever]

If you have never lived it I can see why you think so up in the liberal north of the Constitution of the United States.

I lived near NYC for 4 years in the late 1970,s, so I am at least somewhat familiar with American culture.

 

[dogs4thewin]

Wow. You really don't get it. If only some of the teachers are armed, they can only be so many places as well - stationed in their classrooms I would guess.

but if you have armed guards that can only be so many places ( unless as a suggested earlier they roamed up and down the hallways ( which may work) if people know where they are they could simply avoid them if you have teachers concealed carrying you have no way to know for sure you are avoiding them because you do not know which ones are and which ones are not. You do not know whose classroom is protected, as it were.

 

[Andrew Jeremiah]

And you know this how?

Let's talk about something we do know:

Return your sword to its place, for all who will take up the sword, will die by the sword

Oh, and please do bring up Luke 22 - A careful reading of that text shows that it has nothing to do with self-defence.

As I said elsewhere, in Scripture and history God is the greatest perpetrator of violence - and He'll end human history WITH violence.

 

[dogs4thewin]

How do you know God hates violence?

A great deal of violence in Scripture and history is perpetrated by God.

because for one thing God is patient and slow to anger. He does not use violence as a first resort. We see that with the flood and various other times. He only uses violence last.

 

[Hank77]

the fact that so many gun owners are unwilling to allow stricter regulations/waiting periods/background checks/and gun and safety classes is beyond me

One of the reasons is because of the cost of gun safety classes which disproportionately creates a negative result for poorer people. These are the very people who need to protect themselves and need to hunt.
What does long waiting periods accomplish?

 

[dogs4thewin]

A five year old should know better.

Here, one of our kindergartens (in a rural area where guns were present) ran a toy-gun license programme for kindergarten kids. There were lessons on gun safety (never point a gun at a person or an animal) and only children who passed got a license to carry a toy gun. If they ever pointed a toy gun at a person or a dog or a cat, the license was revoked.

Those kids graduated kindergarten with a good set of gun safety instincts. I believe that a similar programme exists in rural areas of NZ.

It would be much more likely that a five year old would not know right from wrong or would mistake it for a toy than a fifteen year old though.

 

[dogs4thewin]

One of the reasons is because of the cost of gun safety classes which disproportionately creates a negative result for poorer people. These are the very people who need to protect themselves and need to hunt.
What does long waiting periods accomplish?

What if we had free or sliding scale gun safety classes?

 

[Resha Caner]

... if people know where they are they could simply avoid them if you have teachers concealed carrying you have no way to know for sure you are avoiding them ...

That is not a deterrent for most who perpetrate these crimes. They don't care if people are armed or not. In most cases they go in with the expectation they will die. Their intent is to make a statement - express an anger they feel is not being heard. They're not soldiers trying to take a hill.

And, as I said, once an active shooter is on the premises, the primary concern is not taking him down. The primary concern is getting people to safety. You really should educate yourself, but I can see you won't, and that's very frustrating. Aside from general ignorance about how to respond to a shooter, there is also widespread ignorance about how to deal with mental illness. I know that first hand, as I have family members who have struggled with it - and half the battle is all the idiots in the world making it worse because "it's obvious what to do - we don't need experts".

 

[dogs4thewin]

I lived near NYC for 4 years in the late 1970,s, so I am at least somewhat familiar with American culture.

With all due respect no you know somewhat about ONE part of the U.S. culture from DECADES ago. There are a number of different cultures in the various areas of the U.S. and I can promise you they are different now four decades ago.

 

[dogs4thewin]

That is not a deterrent for most who perpetrate these crimes. They don't care if people are armed or not. In most cases they go in with the expectation they will die. Their intent is to make a statement - express an anger they feel is not being heard. They're not soldiers trying to take a hill.

And, as I said, once an active shooter is on the premises, the primary concern is not taking him down. The primary concern is getting people to safety. You really should educate yourself, but I can see you won't, and that's very frustrating. Aside from general ignorance about how to respond to a shooter, there is also widespread ignorance about how to deal with mental illness. I know that first hand, as I have family members who have struggled with it - and half the battle is all the idiots in the world making it worse because "it's obvious what to do - we don't need experts".

I did not say we did not need expects mostly my point is that no one expect or not knows what is PREVENTED by something. In other words, as I said last night even if every act of gun violence was reported ( which I doubt, but even IF true) we ONLY know about the ACTS of violence that were committed/tried there is NO WAY for ANYONE but God to know what actions were not even TRIED because of a given factor. The expects can know what the stats show they cannot know what actions were NEVER taken due to a particular factor in a particular places. Whether that factors be guns or anything else.

 

[Hank77]

Not really. Lots of places are full of non-violent poor people.

This is true. But someone posted a site that showed the states with the highest gun violence rates and all but two out of ten were also very high poverty rate states. Most of them were also on a list of states with the least amount of gun laws.
This is an interesting one. Hawaii has the lowest rate of gun violence and over 45% of their population owns guns.

 

[Radagast]

This is true. But someone posted a site that showed the states with the highest gun violence rates and all but two out of ten were also very high poverty rate states.

On a naive analysis, it might look like that, but if you correlate the murder rate (which is the key variable, not gun violence) with lots of social factors, poverty turns out not to be an important factor (although education is one of the important factors).

 

[Resha Caner]

... no one[, expert or not,] knows what is PREVENTED by something...

Just because expert knowledge is limited doesn't mean we should start doing what inexperienced people say. The experts are better positioned to know what new things need to be tried. If we start making public policy based on random Internet posts, we're truly doomed.