When is it gonna be enough?

[Radagast]

I did not say that all poor people were violent, nor that all rich people are peaceful only that stats show there is a link.

If you run a multiple-variable statistical regression, poverty is actually not one of the explanatory factors. Stats show that there is not a link.

There is a link to lack of education, though.

 

[dogs4thewin]

there are So, SO, SO many irresponsible guns owners that have NO clue whatsoever about safety

if there were mandatory classes/tests that would help
after all we have to be tested to drive a car

leaving loaded guns around children is totally, well can't say it on this forum

How do you define child? There are a number of different ways to define that that make a difference.

 

[Resha Caner]

The solutions isn't to make the good guys suffer. Arm the teachers with guns and turn schools from being "soft targets"

Sadly (but with due regard for employee safety) my employer gives "active shooter training" to its employees. The training is done by a former soldier/policeman who led a terror response unit.

He made it very clear arming teachers, etc. is a horrible idea to which he is strongly opposed. His worst nightmare is unhinged cowboys like you. Maybe school guards, but not armed teachers. When the SWAT team comes in, they don't know who the good guys and bad guys are. They are likely to take down anyone who is armed and shooting.

Imagine the news story about a SWAT team that gets into a shooting match with a teacher ... or the first time an armed teacher mistakenly shoots a student ... or an angry student who takes away the teacher's gun in the classroom - the bad permutations are endless.

 

[mama2one]

x

 

[mama2one]

x

 

[dogs4thewin]

Sadly (but with due regard for employee safety) my employer gives "active shooter training" to its employees. The training is done by a former soldier/policeman who led a terror response unit.

He made it very clear arming teachers, etc. is a horrible idea to which he is strongly opposed. His worst nightmare is unhinged cowboys like you. Maybe school guards, but not armed teachers. When the SWAT team comes in, they don't know who the good guys and bad guys are. They are likely to take down anyone who is armed and shooting.

Imagine the news story about a SWAT team that gets into a shooting match with a teacher.

I have to disagree. The difference with armed guards and concealed carry teachers is that if done concealed and on a strictly volunary basis the bad guys ( or good guys for that matter) would not know who was carrying. If you have armed guards well they cannot be everywhere so they may be somewhat easier to avoid.

 

[dogs4thewin]

seriously?

Yes, are we talking five or fifteen? A fifteen year old should know better and so should we really hold the parents liable if they get hold of a gun ( assuming the fifteen year old has the mind of a fifteen year old and the parents have no reason to believe he or she is mentally unstable.

 

[Hank77]

In that case, it was argued that a "right to police protection" constituted "property" to which the 14th amendment applied, and for which a lawsuit could be filed. The court denied that (rather convoluted) argument, noting, as you say, that "After the warrant is sought, it remains within the discretion of a judge whether to grant it, and after it is granted, it remains within the discretion of the police whether and when to execute it."

That is, the police have a duty to protect the citizens (it's their job), but that doesn't translate into a "property interest" in the way that the lawsuit claimed. If police don't do their job, there are still other avenues for legal action, of course.

I don't know what other legal action that would be. There are no criminal charges to bring that leaves only civil and the court said no to the only amendment that may have given the citizen a constitutional right to expect protection from law enforcement.
Of coarse I'm not an attorney, never mind a Constitutional attorney.

 

[dogs4thewin]

the semiautomatic and automatic multiple fast shooting, kill multiple people in a few second guns DID NOT exist back then

I did not say they did. I said that the guns that DID exist the government ( military) and civilians were basically permitted to be armed with the same weapons.

 

[Resha Caner]

I have to disagree. The difference with armed guards and concealed carry teachers is that if done concealed and on a strictly volunary basis the bad guys ( or good guys for that matter) would not know who was carrying. If you have armed guards well they cannot be everywhere so they may be somewhat easier to avoid.

I don't understand what you're disagreeing with since you seem to realize the SWAT team wouldn't know how to distinguish armed teachers from armed attackers. If the attack is under way and the teacher starts shooting, the gun is no longer concealed. And once the attack begins, the primary concern is not taking out the attacker - this isn't a Hollywood movie staring Wolverine.

But disagree all you want. Until you show otherwise, I'm going to assume you have no experience with such things and I'll stick with the training I received from an expert in the matter.

 

[dogs4thewin]

I don't understand what you're disagreeing with since you seem to realize the SWAT team wouldn't know how to distinguish armed teachers from armed attackers.

But disagree all you want. Until you show otherwise, I'm going to assume you have no experience with such things and I'll stick with the training I received from an expert in the matter.

I am saying that if stopped early enough SWAT would not need to be called to begin with because the threat would have been stopped. Police yes SWAT no.

 

[mama2one]

x

 

[Resha Caner]

agree as most teachers would not leave teaching to become a police officer

my sister, sister-in-law, (both current teachers) and myself as a former preschool worker would never agree to carting a gun in school around kids

Good for you.

 

[Resha Caner]

I am saying that if stopped early enough SWAT would not need to be called to begin with because the threat would have been stopped. Police yes SWAT no.

Again, you seem to speak from ignorance.

As such, maybe active shooter training should be made available to the general public. Some education on the matter might help.

 

[Radagast]

I don't know what other legal action that would be.

Well, to pick just one example, if you could prove that failure of police to protect you was due to racial bias, you could launch legal action based on civil rights legislation.

 

[dogs4thewin]

agree as most teachers would not leave teaching to become a police officer

my sister, sister-in-law, (both current teachers) and myself as a former preschool worker (one of my many jobs) would never agree to carrying a gun in school around kids

and that is perfectly fine that is why I said on a voluntary basis after strict screening. not a mandatory basis with no training.

 

[dogs4thewin]

Again, you seem to speak from ignorance.

As such, maybe active shooter training should be made available to the general public. Some education on the matter might help.

How about this ( hopefully we would not have to come to this, but as some districts are beginning to arm teachers we may have the chance to see what works and does not. Remember, with all due respect, it does not take an expect to really see or test the second part of how well armed teachers work ( and that is from the standpoint of shootings not even tried due to knowing that there may or may NOT be armed teachers around.

 

[Resha Caner]

and that is perfectly fine that is why I said on a voluntary basis after strict screening. not a mandatory basis with no training.

So you have a few armed teachers in a school. How is that different than guards? I'd say the difference is that the guards could focus on guarding and the teachers could focus on teaching. What an idea!

 

[dogs4thewin]

Well, to pick just one example, if you could prove that failure of police to protect you was due to racial bias, you could launch legal action based on civil rights legislation.

proving it being the key word there.

 

[Resha Caner]

... it does not take an expe[r]t to really see or test the second part of how well armed teachers work ...

This is really sad. Unfortunately I see this attitude in too many things. Experts are experts because they have knowledge, training, experience, etc. that others lack. I think it's valuable to listen to experts.