When is it gonna be enough?

[Radagast]

So when a meth addict or some other bad guy breaks down your door to steal kill and rob you, you know, home invasion?

What do we in NZ and Australia do? Nothing.

Obviously this is an approach that only works in a low-crime society.

 

[dogs4thewin]

And you know this how?

Let's talk about something we do know:

Return your sword to its place, for all who will take up the sword, will die by the sword

Oh, and please do bring up Luke 22 - A careful reading of that text shows that it has nothing to do with self-defence.

There is a BIG difference between living by the sword and using a sword.

 

[dogs4thewin]

Well, if a sawed off shotgun is already illegal, we can't make it more illegal.

Presumably the kid should have been taken into custody when he first made a threat.

thank you. This case actually shows that gun control is not the answer; because NOT ONLY is the shooter underage to buy even a long-gun, but the itself would be illegal no matter how old he was or where he got it from.

 

[dogs4thewin]

So you're saying that it's the countries that have higher murder rates is more of a correlation of 1st world vs 3rd world countries? You just unwittingly admitted that the gun ownership was not the strongest factor in murder but in the fact that it is a 1st world country vs a 3rd world country.

Poverty has been shown to be another big factor in gun violence that being the case it would be reasonable to assume that places with more poverty have more gun violence and on the whole that would be third world countries. There are various factors at play.

 

[dogs4thewin]

Then why does it work in Australia?

They also have a much smaller population. How many guns were there compared to how many are in the U.S? Here's a tip there are as many (if not more) guns in this country as people.

 

[dogs4thewin]

Actually it makes it a whole lot more easy for the authorities to spot illegal ownership when they see it. In NZ where an illegal handgun or an automatic weapon is discovered it shines a light on a person or group that the authorities need to pay attention to track down sources and shut down, irrespective of the intent of the user(s).

no, because there are SO many guns. Compare the number of guns to the number fatalities ( particularly those by homicide which make up less than a third of total gun fatalities ( talking about purposeful homicide here and you will find that the people who want guns will get them and most guns actually NEVER shoot a single person.

 

[dogs4thewin]

(1) I think we have a less violent society

(2) Our gun laws didn't actually change out murder rate at all. Gun killings became less common, but knife killings became more common.

thank you. So people will kill one way or another it is about hearts and culture not tools used.

 

[section9+1]

The root problem behind gun shootings is unfixable. It can only be combated. I believe liberal and (Christian) policies facilitate gun crimes. They make it easier to commit and easier to get away with and easier to live with. The root problems aren't really in the kids who do this, it is in the society itself which cannot be changed. Our society is diverse, we have many cultures, diverse values, diverse morals, diverse thinking and everyone from the greatest to the least has a voice and uses it. To think we can get along is a ridiculous fairy tale.

 

[dogs4thewin]

More people die in auto crashed than gun shots. Ban automobiles??

that is the point actually. We do not ban autos and yet they cause a LOT of death as well.

 

[dogs4thewin]

There are occasional cases of someone using an auto to purposely kill people, but for the most part autos are used strictly for transportation purposes. Yes, accidents happen and people do die in those accidents but that isn’t the primary purpose of driving. Guns, on the other hand, have three primary purposes—target shooting, shooting animals and shooting people. The biggest difference between the two is that in order to drive a car you have to pass an oral and/or written test, a driving test and an eye exam. You can get a gun with none of that.

You mean to drive a car LEGALLY. There are people who drive cars EVERY DAY that have no business doing so and really unless they otherwise break a law ( or go through a checkpoint which is rare in most cases people never know.

 

[dogs4thewin]

The root problem behind gun shootings is unfixable. It can only be combated. I believe liberal and (Christian) policies facilitate gun crimes. They make it easier to commit and easier to get away with and easier to live with. The root problems aren't really in the kids who do this, it is in the society itself which cannot be changed. Our society is diverse, we have many cultures, diverse values, diverse morals, diverse thinking and everyone from the greatest to the least has a voice and uses it. To think we can get along is a ridiculous fairy tale.

It is like when a gun crime IS committed often times witnesses ID the wrong person because they tend to focus on the weapon and not the person holding it. This can make it easier in and of itself because unless there is actual video frankly it is not wise to trust witnesses.

 

[dogs4thewin]

We do have an increasing drug problem. Our drug-induced death rate is about half that of the US, I think.

We have very little gang violence, compared to the US. I think there are a whole bunch of reasons for that.

Generally speaking, for every kind of needless death (murder, disease, traffic deaths, whatever) we tend to demand that our government take effective action, and it generally does. Often our solutions would be unconstitutional in the US, though.

This is in part because as a country we have decided as the founding fathers did that it is better for the guilty to walk free than for people to be punished for things they did not do and as a result it is HARD for the government to prove certain types of criminal cases.

 

[marineimaging]

This is where the efforts should be focused.
Though some will still get their hands on a gun, there is no excuse for not having your weapons secured so no unauthorized person can get their hands on them.

Such as Adam Lanza? But he killed his mother first to get her guns and they were in a safe. As I recall he finagled the number to it from watching where it was hidden. Or that you believe your nearly adult son is old enough and has shown responsibility in the past and you WANT him to be able to get them to protect him, the home, and his sibling(s). It is easy to judge everybody as being evil and crazy or uncaring or too stupid to know how and when to lock up their guns, and cars, and hammers, and poisons, and knives, and swords, and spears, and broken glass - - - and files, drills, fists, and feet, and vases, and statues..., just naming a few murder weapons known to have been used a few hundred times a year. What if I had mine locked up in my vehicle and purposely hidden under a moving blanket so nothing showed but the moment I walked into the store a thief busted the lock, rifled around until he found my gun and 300 rounds of ammo and stole them all in about 30 seconds? I was only one of 13 that week in the same parking lot. You can try but a committed thief approaches your property with the intention, the tools, and the know how to breach every aspect of security designed by people who only care about the bottom line of their product sales.

 

[mama2one]

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[Radagast]

Poverty has been shown to be another big factor in gun violence

Not really. Lots of places are full of non-violent poor people.

 

[expos4ever]

Not really. If you compare US states, which makes more sense, there is no correlation between gun ownership and murder rate.

That was not my point. By intentionally cherry-picking data, one is effectively lying, regardless of what the truth of the matter is about the correlation between gun ownership and murder rate.

 

[dogs4thewin]

Not really. Lots of places are full of non-violent poor people.

I did not say that all poor people were violent, nor that all rich people are peaceful only that stats show there is a link.

 

[Radagast]

Our society is diverse, we have many cultures

Australia is very culturally diverse, and we get along fairly well.

We do have quite a few shared values, though.

 

[dogs4thewin]

but if people were willing to "save the children" re this thread then changes could be made

as semiautomatic and automatic weapons often used in mass shooting kill a whole lot of people quickly

people seem to forget when the constitution was written, they did not have such guns available nor did they probably foresee mass shooting with such weapons

the fact that so many gun owners are unwilling to allow stricter regulations/waiting periods/background checks/and gun and safety classes is beyond me

At the same time when the constituation was written it was written such that government and civilians basically were permitted to have the same guns. There was no major difference between the arms.

 

[mama2one]

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