When Is An Infant Saved?

[justlookinla]

And why?

 

[bling]

An infant is not saved since an infant is not lost. A mature adult ins and needs salvation.

 

[Ignatius21]

An infant is not saved since an infant is not lost. A mature adult ins and needs salvation.

A sinless infant still inherits the curse of death from Adam. Salvation cannot be realized apart from the resurrection of the body and union with Christ. This union begins at baptism.

So an infant is saved at baptism...but yet is not saved until the last resurrection. Like all of us.

And compared to the God who saves, we are all infants when he first comes to us. Age doesn't matter.

 

[bitznbitez]

And why?

When its baptised.

 

[Ignatius21]

And why?

Can you define what you mean by "saved?"

 

[Hillsage]

And why?

As I read your OP I was struck with the question; When is a baby unsaved? I meditated on that and came to an unexpected answer. He may have been born with a sin nature but has never committed a sin. Being raised as a catholic I was taught he inherited original sin, but I no longer believe that POV. Being born a sinner is on God, and not us.

 

[justlookinla]

By 'saved', I mean not going to hell, going to heaven if they die, redeemed.

Why would the act of another person, i.e., the individual immersing/sprinkling them 'save' them? Would they be 'lost', i.e, go to hell without that?

 

[South Bound]

And why?

Same as anybody else: When he repents and receives Christ's vicarious atonement on his behalf by faith.

 

[justlookinla]

Same as anybody else: When he repents and receives Christ's vicarious atonement on his behalf by faith.

Infants can't repent.

 

[jacobs well]

Infants can't repent.

exactly-that why babies can't be baptized. Repentance requires a lot more than just saying you're sorry.

 

[Ignatius21]

Infants can't repent.

Repentance requires much more than just confessing sin, or even making deliberate choices to turn from it (which will very likely lead to repeated sin-repent-sin-repent cycles). It means turning from not-God, to God. Or more simply and fundamentally, from death to life.

As such, repentance cannot truly begin until a person (the whole person, body and soul) is united to Christ and indwelt by the Holy Spirit. And it is not fully realized until the Second Coming, when the last judgement has taken place and all the righteous are raised up to live eternally (and bodily) in the new heavens and new earth. When the Apostle Peter writes "The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance," the "you" he's addressing are those who are already baptized members of the Christian Church. So he isn't talking about repentance in a "find Jesus" sense, but in a "reach the fullness of repentance" sense, which is nothing less than reaching perfect union with Christ, at which point a Christian will never again desire anything other than to obey the will of God.

So yes, an infant can begin repentance, because repentance begins at the union of a human person to Christ. This, according to the Scriptures and the Fathers, begins with baptism, when the true presence of God himself comes to the "newly illumined" child of God, at any age.

And baptism isn't "something somebody does to someone else." Baptism is done by the Church, and the Church is the Body of Christ. Thus, the one who is performing baptism is Christ, and he unites the person to himself.

 

[justlookinla]

Repentance requires much more than just confessing sin, or even making deliberate choices to turn from it (which will very likely lead to repeated sin-repent-sin-repent cycles). It means turning from not-God, to God. Or more simply and fundamentally, from death to life.

Yes, I agree repentance is much more than just confessing sin. But, repentance does include confessing sin, asking for forgiveness, ect. An infant cannot do this.

As such, repentance cannot truly begin until a person (the whole person, body and soul) is united to Christ and indwelt by the Holy Spirit.

I agree. One does not truly repent until convicted by the Spirit of God and turns to Christ as the intermediary of their repentance.

And it is not fully realized until the Second Coming, when the last judgement has taken place and all the righteous are raised up to live eternally (and bodily) in the new heavens and new earth.

Forgiveness of one's sins, upon repentance, is realized at the moment of repentance.

When the Apostle Peter writes "The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance," the "you" he's addressing are those who are already baptized members of the Christian Church.

I disagree. One repents and turns to God by the leading of the Holy Spirit before they're baptized. Baptism is one of the results of this repentance. "Repent and be baptized", Acts 2:38.

So he isn't talking about repentance in a "find Jesus" sense, but in a "reach the fullness of repentance" sense, which is nothing less than reaching perfect union with Christ, at which point a Christian will never again desire anything other than to obey the will of God.

I'm speaking of when is an infant redeemed and how.

So yes, an infant can begin repentance, because repentance begins at the union of a human person to Christ. This, according to the Scriptures and the Fathers, begins with baptism, when the true presence of God himself comes to the "newly illumined" child of God, at any age.

What scriptures?

And baptism isn't "something somebody does to someone else." Baptism is done by the Church, and the Church is the Body of Christ. Thus, the one who is performing baptism is Christ, and he unites the person to himself.

One doesn't baptize themselves. People baptized people.

 

[South Bound]

This, according to the Scriptures...

Which, by an amazing coincidence, just happened to slip your mind to post.

And baptism isn't "something somebody does to someone else." Baptism is done by the Church, and the Church is the Body of Christ. Thus, the one who is performing baptism is Christ, and he unites the person to himself.

Infants can't repent.

Correct. Thus, the reason infants cannot be baptized and cannot be saved in the manner described in scripture.

 

[bling]

A sinless infant still inherits the curse of death from Adam. Salvation cannot be realized apart from the resurrection of the body and union with Christ. This union begins at baptism.

So an infant is saved at baptism...but yet is not saved until the last resurrection. Like all of us.

And compared to the God who saves, we are all infants when he first comes to us. Age doesn't matter.

Death is a “cures”, but is death in and of itself “bad” for a saved person?

People do not “inherit” sin any more than Jesus inherited sin.

The Bible does not describe Adam and Eve’s first sin as a fall, so why should we?

The Bible does not say man’s nature changed with Adam and Eve’s sin, but additional knowledge was given, so is knowledge in and of itself “bad”?

There are some very poetic Old Testament verses that could suggest prior to birth the individual is a sinner or they could just be poetically trying to show how big of a sinner the writer was including his ancestry.

 

[Hawkiz]

By 'saved', I mean not going to hell, going to heaven if they die, redeemed.

Why would the act of another person, i.e., the individual immersing/sprinkling them 'save' them? Would they be 'lost', i.e, go to hell without that?

Col. 2:11-12. Baptism is the new circumcision for all people of the New Covenant. Therefore, baptism is for infants as well as adults. God did not make the New Covenant narrower than the Old Covenant...on the contrary, He made it wider. For Jews and Gentiles, infants and adults.

Psalm 51:5. We are conceived in the iniquity of sin. Baptism is necessary from conception.

Matt. 19:14. Jesus clearly says the Kingdom of Heaven belongs also to children. There is no age threshold to enter the Kingdom...and no age threshold to be eligible for baptism.

Act 2:38-39. 'If you repent, then each one who is part of you and yours must each be baptized...' (Metanoesate Kai bapistheto hekastos hymon.). Babies are to be baptized based on their parents' faith. Vs. 39 refers to 'those far off', and Peter uses the word 'teknon' which is used in Scripture to refer to both children and infants. (See Luke 1:59 and Acts 21:21 using teknon to refer to the infant John the Baptist and 8 day old babies.)

And to specifically answer your question about 'why would the act of another person save them, we can look to Jesus:

Matt. 9:2; Mark 2:3-5. The Faith of those who brought the paralytic is what moved Christ to cure him. This is a perfect example of the faith of one being applied to another.

Matt. 8:5-13. Again, we see Jesus responding to one person's faith and applying it to another. It is not too large a leap to see how this can apply for baptism of an infant based on the faith of the parent or parents.

Mark 9:22-25. Here is an example of a father's faith being applied to his son. Jesus exercises the child's unclean spirit based on the father's faith. This healing is based on another's faith.

1 Cor. 7:14. Paul says that children are sanctified by God through the belief of even only one of their parents.

Peace in Christ

 

[Ignatius21]

Death is a “cures”, but is death in and of itself “bad” for a saved person?

Death is transformed for the believer, from a curse and condemnation, to a rebirth and justification. For a "saved" person, baptism is a participation in the death of Christ, and subsequent participation in the resurrection of Christ. The person must still undergo physical death, but now that event is overshadowed with hope rather than despair. This is why the NT and subsequent generations of Christians see death as "falling asleep in the Lord." And why the early Christians celebrated the deaths of martyrs as their "birthdays" so to speak.

People do not “inherit” sin any more than Jesus inherited sin.

Depends upon your understanding of sin. We do inherit death, and with it the corruption of our desires and passions. We do not inherit legal guilt, but we are born into bondage to the devil, and in need of redemption by Christ. Our separation from God involves much more than just breaking rules and incurring debt, just as our salvation involves much more than just forgiveness of debt and "going to heaven when we die."

The Bible does not describe Adam and Eve’s first sin as a fall, so why should we?

How do you think it describes it?

The Bible does not say man’s nature changed with Adam and Eve’s sin, but additional knowledge was given, so is knowledge in and of itself “bad”?

You are correct, man's nature did not change as a result of sin, or else Christ would have had to be sinful to truly assume human nature. Better to think of sin as a parasite than something that is an essential part of ourselves. A nature cannot sin, only a person can sin. If a statue falls over, it's still a statue. Its nature hasn't changed, only its position.

There are some very poetic Old Testament verses that could suggest prior to birth the individual is a sinner or they could just be poetically trying to show how big of a sinner the writer was including his ancestry.

I tend toward the latter.

 

[South Bound]

Col. 2:11-12. Baptism is the new circumcision for all people of the New Covenant. Therefore, baptism is for infants as well as adults. God did not make the New Covenant narrower than the Old Covenant...on the contrary, He made it wider. For Jews and Gentiles, infants and adults.

Psalm 51:5. We are conceived in the iniquity of sin. Baptism is necessary from conception.

Matt. 19:14. Jesus clearly says the Kingdom of Heaven belongs also to children. There is no age threshold to enter the Kingdom...and no age threshold to be eligible for baptism.

Act 2:38-39. 'If you repent, then each one who is part of you and yours must each be baptized...' (Metanoesate Kai bapistheto hekastos hymon.). Babies are to be baptized based on their parents' faith. Vs. 39 refers to 'those far off', and Peter uses the word 'teknon' which is used in Scripture to refer to both children and infants. (See Luke 1:59 and Acts 21:21 using teknon to refer to the infant John the Baptist and 8 day old babies.)

And to specifically answer your question about 'why would the act of another person save them, we can look to Jesus:

Matt. 9:2; Mark 2:3-5. The Faith of those who brought the paralytic is what moved Christ to cure him. This is a perfect example of the faith of one being applied to another.

Matt. 8:5-13. Again, we see Jesus responding to one person's faith and applying it to another. It is not too large a leap to see how this can apply for baptism of an infant based on the faith of the parent or parents.

Mark 9:22-25. Here is an example of a father's faith being applied to his son. Jesus exercises the child's unclean spirit based on the father's faith. This healing is based on another's faith.

1 Cor. 7:14. Paul says that children are sanctified by God through the belief of even only one of their parents.

Peace in Christ

"...and that's why fire engines are red."

 

[bling]

Death is transformed for the believer, from a curse and condemnation, to a rebirth and justification. For a "saved" person, baptism is a participation in the death of Christ, and subsequent participation in the resurrection of Christ. The person must still undergo physical death, but now that event is overshadowed with hope rather than despair. This is why the NT and subsequent generations of Christians see death as "falling asleep in the Lord." And why the early Christians celebrated the deaths of martyrs as their "birthdays" so to speak.

OK

Depends upon your understanding of sin. We do inherit death, and with it the corruption of our desires and passions. We do not inherit legal guilt, but we are born into bondage to the devil, and in need of redemption by Christ. Our separation from God involves much more than just breaking rules and incurring debt, just as our salvation involves much more than just forgiveness of debt and "going to heaven when we die."

“We do inherit death…” so since Christ also died did He inherit sin?

Where does the bible say: “with it the corruption of our desires and passions”?

So at birth or is it at conception we are in bondage to the devil?

Why is it not the fact that we sin that causes us to be in bondage to the devil?

If we are in bondage prior to our sinning than is it the devil’s fault we sin?

Can our debt caused by sin be forgiven and we still do not go to heaven?

How do you think it describes it?

Tell me this first: Would you prefer to be in a place where your eternal close relationship with God was totally dependent on your personal ability to obey God (the garden before sinning) or in a place where your eternal close relationship with God dependent on your humbly accepting God’s charity (where you are today)?

Just as when my children matured to the point they intentionally sinned, I did not call that a “fall”, nor would I call Adam and Eve’s first sin a “fall”. The first sin of either group was a transformation into a new situation, which God has planned for and provided the best way for willing humans to be successful.

You are correct, man's nature did not change as a result of sin, or else Christ would have had to be sinful to truly assume human nature. Better to think of sin as a parasite than something that is an essential part of ourselves. A nature cannot sin, only a person can sin. If a statue falls over, it's still a statue. Its nature hasn't changed, only its position.

You do well to realize this, for few I talk with agree with you.

I tend toward the latter.

I agree.

 

[oworm]

When is an infant saved?

At the moment of regeneration

And why?

Because God chose to save him/her

 

[Ignatius21]

“We do inherit death…” so since Christ also died did He inherit sin?

He took death upon himself voluntarily. "God made him who knew no sin, to be sin for us, that in him we might become the righteousness of God." Because human nature was united directly to the divine in Christ, he had no sin, nor any desire to sin, thus it was not fitting that he be held captive to death. The Devil had no claim on him, and this was shown to all when he was raised from the dead.

The early Fathers...heck, all the fathers so far as I can tell...made much of this great reversal and overthrow of Satan's dominion. Many fathers--Chrysostom, Pope Gregory I, pleny of others--portrayed it as Christ "baiting" the devil with his humanity, and the devil thinking he had a claim over him, swallowed the bait and was "pierced with the fishhook of divinity." It's a very poetic metaphor, obviously, but it captures their thinking.

We are bound to die. Christ died voluntarily, despite not having inherited the curse of Adam.

Where does the bible say: “with it the corruption of our desires and passions”?

Right next to where it says "trinity" and "hypostatic union." It's a way of summarily phrasing our sinful condition. I can make a list if you like, of passages citing our bondage to sin, the evil inclination of our desires, and so forth. But I'm sure you already know the passages I'd list.

So at birth or is it at conception we are in bondage to the devil?

Conception, I think.

Why is it not the fact that we sin that causes us to be in bondage to the devil?

It is. But even if one were to live a sinless life, one would still die, and the devil still "wins." It's humanity that is given over into bondage. I know you'll disagree, but in Orthodoxy it's held that Mary lived a sinless life. Yet she still died. Only by union with God in Christ can anyone be saved from death.

If we are in bondage prior to our sinning than is it the devil’s fault we sin?

Can our debt caused by sin be forgiven and we still do not go to heaven?

Not sure where you're going with that. No it's not the devil's fault, it's our fault. And no I can't explain how that is. I always fall back to the mystery of Judas' betrayal. Passages in various gospels very clearly say his sin was (a) his own, (b) due to the devil "entering into him," and (c) the fullfilment of prophecy. It's him...it's Satan...it's God...huh?

We just go with it.