When Exactly Is the Rapture?

Jebediah · Jan 8, 2006

Old story:

Interviewer: So you are a Christian?
Christian: Yes sir.
Interviewer: Well, what do you think about the Tribulation?
Christian (after thinking for a moment): Well, if the Lord says tribulate, I'll be tribulating!

lecoop · Jan 8, 2006

L0U said:
First of all, the context of the Lord message here is the Son of man's coming AFTER the great tribulation (see Luke 21:25-27)
But especially verse 28:
"And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh."

Secondly, we have the very same author, Luke using this very same verb ('ekpheugo') in two other places:

1) Acts 16:27

"When the jailer woke and saw that the prison doors were open, he drew his sword and was about to kill himself, supposing that the prisoners had escaped."
(They were in prison and they 'escaped' from the midst of prison.)

2) Acts 19:16

"And the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them, and overcame them, and prevailed against them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded."
(They were in the house and then 'fled' from the midst of the house)

Luke also uses this word (withou the prefix 'ek') in verse 21 of the same passage:

"Then let them which are in Judaea flee ('pheugo') to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out ('ek'choreo'); and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto."

Thirdly, how is it that most pre-tribulationalists will tell us that, "Oh, the olivet discourse is speaking to the Jews, its on 'Jewish Ground', its not talking about the church." But when you come to a verse like this that talks about 'escaping' something, all of a sudden, "He speaking to the church."???????????????????????????

Are we hearing only that which we want to hear? Do we gather around ourselves teachers who will tell us what we want to hear?(2 Timothy 4)

Excellent post, Lou! I love your third point! (Laughing out loud!)

Coop

lecoop · Jan 8, 2006

L0U said:
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I believe so.

Jesus said that the great tribulation would begin following the abomination of desolation, when that abomination will "stand in the Holy Place":
"When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)... For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be."

We know that the abomination of desolation will be near the midpoint, because Daniel said "in the midst [middle]. So then, you are saying that "great tribulation" will start very near the midpoint of the week, after the AOD.

Paul said that this is to occur before the Day of the Lord:

"Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."

"That day" here is referring back to the previous verse that mentions the "day of Christ." So you are saying that the "day of Christ" is the same as the "day of the Lord." I think this needs to be proven. Perhaps the "day of Christ" is the 24 hour day that He returns. However, I cannot see in these verses why you would make the statement that you made: "this [great tribulation] is to occur before the Day of the Lord:" Please explain why this statement is valid concerning these verses. It would seem to me that the AOD would happen after the man of sin is revealed, or perhaps at the same time. Your first point was that great tribulation would be after the AOD, but now it seems like you are saying that it would be before it.

Jesus also said that this would occur before His coming:
" Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."

I agree that His coming will be after "the tribulation" of those days, and if I could be so bold, I beleive this to mean after the "great tribulation" that occurs after the AOD. We will probably disagree as to when this period of "great tribulation" will end.

What Jesus is confirming here is the very thing that the prophets spoke of that would be prior to the Day of the Lord, in answer to the disciples question concerning "the sign of Thy coming."

And that sign occurrs at the openning of the sixth seal.

At this point, without any pre-concieved notions, it is therefore both logical and Biblical to place the 'great tribulation' before the openning of the sixth seal.

Now I believe you have made a big error, in believing that both mentions of signs in the sun, moon and stars occur at the same time, and are speaking of the same event. In fact, these two times are approximately 7 years apart!

rev 6
12And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

There is most definitely cosmic signs here, and we see that they occur at the beginning of God's wrath. This then, will be before any of the trumpets or vials, so they are all in the future in respect to this event. I think there can be no doubt that God's wrath will cause great tribulation. When there is no water to drink, there is great pressure. When there is no green thing to eat, it is great pressure. Therefore, "great tribulation" is not just from the antichrist trying to kill people. Great pressure is coming from all sides, just trying to stay alive.

Matt 24
29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Here we see more cosmic signs. Are they speaking of the same thing? No, they cannot be, for the timing is wrong. One is before the 70th week even starts, i.e. at the sixth seal, and the other is after the week has finished, i.e. after the trumpets, the midpoint, and the vials. This will be approximately 7 years later. In one instance, the moon appears as blood, while in the other, the moon may be invisable, as it is not reflecting light at all. In verse 30 we see the coming of the Son of Man. This next verse shows this coming.

Rev 19

11And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

We notice that this coming is in Rev 19, after the 70th week has finished. This book of Revelation shows that the 7 trumpets and seven vials will take place between the 6th seal and the coming of the Lord (with the accompanying cosmic signs). how long for one trumpet? It is written that one trumpet goes for 5 months. If all took the same time, and there was one month "repreve" inbetween, that would be 6 times 7, or 42 months for seven trumpets. Hmmm. How interesting! This is one half of the 7 years. If each vial took 5 months, with one month inbetween, then the vials would cover the second 42 months. Any way you look at it, there is going to be at least 7 years between the sixth seal and the coming of the Lord.

Finally, if you place the "great tribulation" before the 6th seal, Then you must place the AOD (that you said caused the GT) before the sixth seal. Since the midpoint of the week is at the seventh trumpet, and the AOD will occur very near this time, then you must place the sixth seal after the seventh trumpet! Since the seventh seal opens the trumpets, you have created an impossibility. There will be no trumpets blown before the 7th seal is broken. Therefore, it must be that I am not understanding you.

But we have no need to rely on these things alone for the 'great multitude' of Revelation 7 is seen coming "out of ('ek') THE great tribulation" before the wrath of the Lamb ("great Day of His wrath" "Day of the Lord") which begins at the openning of the seventh seal, well into the second half of the seventieth week.

For a moment, let's leave off the "the" of "the great tribulation" and just say "great tribulation." You have almost convinced me that I cannot equate "the tribulation" with the "70th week," so let's just say "great tribulation." When would "great tribulation" start? We see this great crowd before the 7th seal, which then would be about 42 months before the midpoint of the week, when the AOD will take place. Therefore, there must indeed be "great tribulation" taking place at the time of the 6th seal. In fact, an earthquake that shakes the whole planet will indeed cause great tribulation or stress or pressure. John mentioned that he was in "tribulation" way back in 95 AD. It seems then, that "tribulation" or stress will continue to get worse, and worse, right up to and through the 70th week. At what point will it become "great?" I suspect that whenever people are dying because of something, it is great tribulation. Therefore, when this great crowd came out of " the great tribulation," I must conclude that this "great tribulation" started with the sixth seal, or even before. I really would like to have some comments here, as I am guessing.

"And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven..."

This sign happens after the week has ended: Rev 19 versus Rev 16.
"..."Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:.."

This happens at the sixth seal, before the week has even started.

Apparently these will have seen something.....

They just saw and felt an earthquake that literally shook the whole world, as well as saw the cosmic signs.

"....and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."

This will take place some time after the 70th week has concluded. The week is finished with the sixth vial, in rev 16. Jesus returns in rev 19. We don't know how much time will elaspe between these two events.

This is both His being "revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:" and His "{appearing, when we} shall also appear with Him in glory".
"Behold, He cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see Him, and they also which pierced Him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of Him. Even so, Amen."

It is not that "two comings" are spoken of in Scriptures but that two perspectives are being shown.

Like the Day of the Lord passages. It is coming on those in darkness as a thief in the night. But since we are not in darkness, "when {we} shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors."

Good post. Thanks for the work. I have called myself "pretrib," but I disagree with much that they say, for in many cases they just "extrapolate" from scripture rather than take the simplest reading. The biggest difference I see with them, and where I seem to be much closer to pre-wrath, is that I do not see the first seals as future, but past. It seems pretty plain that it was right after Jesus rose from the dead that He got the scroll into his hands and started immediately to break the seals. As I see it, we are waiting on the sixth seal. The 70th week will start with 7th seal. Therefore, I see the rapture before the seventh seal, which I call "pre-70th week," and others call prewrath.

lecoop · Jan 8, 2006

L0U said:
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If what you say is the case, then could you please explain to me what HE said here in the Olivet Discourse:
"And the gospel must first be published among all nations. But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost. Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death. And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved."

It is the anointing that does the speaking, but He does use the human mouth. He is not going to be standing beside one, and speaking for him! No, the anointing of the HS causes one to speak. Case in point: when people received the baptism with the HS in Acts, and spoke in tongues. It was the human mouth doing the speaking, but is said, "as the HS gave the utterance."

Coop

exodus19 · Jan 9, 2006

lecoop said:
It is the anointing that does the speaking, but He does use the human mouth. He is not going to be standing beside one, and speaking for him! No, the anointing of the HS causes one to speak. Case in point: when people received the baptism with the HS in Acts, and spoke in tongues. It was the human mouth doing the speaking, but is said, "as the HS gave the utterance."

Coop

so you are here and i'm here, and what is this all about?

you guys sound so funny to me, always going back and forth, with what i said when and what he said when and when will it all take place.

try and imagine me sitting here reading pages of posts and seeing some things yes right, others, well close but not exactly, another completely off, then another almost all good.

then imagine me trying to understand why they ignore me?

it's really odd, you know.

try and see us sitting together in a room and having all the time and books open to hash out details.

why do you like this so much is my question, why do you like to hide behind names and computors and not reveal were you live and what actually you do in life.

how do you think i look at you all not being completely forthright with the exception that you show what you believe to be true?

isn't it strange.

the scriptures speak of proving the spirits, how can you prove a spirit who refuses to communicate or acknowledge your presence?

do you see my points.

you use so much of the language in the Bible literally, and go off on tangents trying to put forth your points then saying to another , good post there boo ithink i'm a pre-meditator now when i was a post die hard before. you know boo, thanks .

all this just going on and you simply cannot see me looking at all this and saying why do they look at the Text as though it's a foreign kind of thing that they observe or may observe or may ?????????

So you should know that when you receive the "new spirit" or 'white garments', that is the HOly Spirit, and when you have that you also have the two edged sword, and all the words and answers do not come from you, but through you as you are anointed in the HOly Spirit, then it is the Holy Spirit that speaks using your mouth.

just as i speak to you, it is not me frank, speaking but the Holy Spirit. Remember, the first candle is lit then lights the other candle which in turn lights the other.

So why not just stick to the Text and as i'm speaking to you just use you God given, freely given intelligence to ask good questions about this issue.

Think like this, ask the Holy Spirit, lthink as though i was Paul or David or Moses or ezekiel and ask questions b/c you are guessing as to what one Holy Prophet said and you want to know.

If you could only accept the Bible as it's written and understand it correctly, you woudn't be so opinionated, right?

so why remain opinionated why not become or atleast desire to become one with the Holy Prophets, so as you know what to speak when the 'hour' which is time has come. that said the end-times.

elsewhere Jesus was giving a current day statement for the immediate followers that the need only blelive and put faith in what he said and by having a minimum amount of "manuscript knowledge' but full conviction in the Word of God, which the same is from the son, anointed, then they need not concern themsleves for what the enemies, or police officers and gobvernment boys, and chief priests would do to them physically , b/c they were not the body but eternal Spirit-souls and there next condition should they be killed would be taken up in the Spirit and they would be given a favourable birth in their next situation.

do you concur? or do you need all the Text to back this up,

easier i be in the present with you in flesh to open all the back, cause it's long and deep.

many as i've said to you elsewhere approach topics without the fundamental understanding of what is life, the soul, the spirit, heaven, God and so on and go off on tangents b/c you fail to here and understand the basics.

but it is what it is, and shall be what it shall be, and you will be left or you will be caught up in the Spirit of Perfect Love.

dats it dats all

exodus19

olivet discourse took place in heaven, where 's heaven?

exodus19 · Jan 9, 2006

olivet discourse took place in heaven, where's heaven?

lecoop · Jan 9, 2006

exodus19 says

then imagine me trying to understand why they ignore me?

I cannot answer for anyone else, but I will answer for me. When you post something that I can understand, I might be inclined to answer it. Do you write in tongues? You know, "no man understands?"

Coop

exodus19 · Jan 10, 2006

when Moses went to the mount who did he meet with? God correct.

when Jesus went to the mount who did he meet with?

therefore when the mount is filled with clouds b/c it was set above sometimes God made for physical clouds to pass over and there was understanding that God was there.
however wherein is the land of Peace wherever the son so is the kingdom, so where is the kingdom so is heaven. Wherever the Holy spirit is and is King so is that place called heaven.

the expressions in the Bible where often came down implying heaven was above, but that above originated from the mount of olives or mt sinai, that is the above and it shall be that when the son comes out of heaven.

so as written into revelation chap 5 you have the expression of the throne that is purposed to imply the time of the son appearing in the midst or better still when the the garments are handed out as you read in 7 and the 144,000 receive that is the first ressurrection from those in that heaven and too which correlates to the same heaven as recorded at the 7th trump which is in when the mystery is revealled at 11:19.

and the women came from that heaven, that is essentially the bride or again the 144,000 as written or corresponding to the "white throne".

the white throne impplies messiah s strenghth or the bow as written orginally in Genesis , coming in the clouds. Clouds represents army or numbers of people who are with him in agreement not given over to the women or harlots which are the evil cultures.

all cultures and ****ries even Zion is give a female conotation. this is b/c the female form multiplies and begats or has the fertile womb or earth for the seeds or souls to take birth and become a body.

hence those who hear the call of messiah will bve changed in spirit. this confirms the putting of the white garments and the confirms the virgins.
or as many OT sayings are saying the jews, or the israelites, or the daughters of israel all pertaining to those who will be in the new Zion or the promised land as God has repeated.

all these expressions can be backed by scripture, i cannot give them to you but i can simply write in plain english that you may hear them.

as i've said before if you have problems understanding then ask and i'll try take the time to go to the place in the OT for support.

all i can do is speak to you like this

A Brother In Christ · Jan 10, 2006

ForeverSaved said:
.when is the Rapture..

Rapture in revelations happens between rev 3:22 and rev 4:1

as for dealing with trumpets 1 thes 4:16-17
notice ..trump of God..those in revelation are angels not God

No one know the day or hour but God the Father... matt 24:36

reason why the rapture is important 1 cor 5:1-10

calidog · Jan 10, 2006

reason why the rapture is important 1 cor 5:1-10[/QUOTE said:

exodus19 · Jan 10, 2006

A Brother In Christ said:
Rapture in revelations happens between rev 3:22 and rev 4:1

as for dealing with trumpets 1 thes 4:16-17
notice ..trump of God..those in revelation are angels not God

No one know the day or hour but God the Father... matt 24:36

reason why the rapture is important 1 cor 5:1-10

i see your points point but do not entirely agree.

on the first point that the rapture occurs between is interesting and can be seen that way , however if you take into consideration all the rest of the verses you will see it as the preparation for the throne ie Judgement and the revealling of the seals, which essentially will bring in confirmation and anointing of those of faith as you see being given the white garments and the 144,000, being mentioned in 7 and those with the seal in their foreheads.
you need to have the presence of messiah in order to confirm with seal.

now regarding thess 4 :16 ,17 this is actually the shout, the announcement " i am messiah , here with you" not the trumpets or angels speaking but then the call to order which is 17 which is in line with what is going on between 3:22 and the 4:1, if you wish.
this is the set up for the the throne, which Paul wrote based upon OT repetitions regarding the 'prince of peace' and his imminent return.

no one knows the day or hour yet the hour or day is known when it is revealled since the Lord and messiah are one and the same in Word. What saith the Holy Prophet, saith the Lord.

now regarding your last point and reference of cor 5:1-10 is not entirely accurate since the implied time for that writing was pertaining to the activities then and not in the 2cd coming.

however, the implied expression that fornication is prevelent can be understood as well in rev ch 2 & 3 since much false preaching is coming from the podium of kings and evil rulers in their liberal governments of so called freedoms and the medias liberal ways of promoting fornication through their mediums.

nice thoughts though

lecoop · Jan 11, 2006

These are some thought for Lou, but anyone else can "listen in" if they so choose.

I am still working on the idea of "the tribulation" being different than "the 70th week." I said earlier, I guess it was in this thread, that when God pours out a vial, it would cause "tribulation." This is probably true in the strictest definiton of the word, but I am thinking that the book of Revelation calls what He does "wrath." Yes, it will cause those that have the mark great tribulation - that is great pressure - but this is probably not what John meant when he wrote "great tribluation."

Satan will be kicked out of heaven (at the midpoint) and even the heavenlies (atmosphere) and will be full of wrath. He probably will be very limited in his ability to move from one place to another. He wants to destroy the Jews, but needs help to do so. So he works in and throught the antichrist to persecute the Jews and the Christians. I believe Satan's ultimate goal is to destroy all of mankind, to thwart God's plans to repopulate the earth.

Therefore, I have been meditating on what God will do in the last 1260 days, in the way of hindering or cutting short what the antichrist is doing. With this thought in mind, let's look.

Rev 16
2And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.

It will be difficult for the armies of the antichrist to go into battle with grevious sores. However, I suspect they will be forced, under threat of death.

3And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.

It may well be that this will stop all shipping. Ships need water for cooling of engines, etc, so this new "water" may not work. Probably submarines will all be halted. This could be a BIG thing for the antichrist's military.

4And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood.

Now it may become very difficult to provide water for drinking purposes in the field. This alone could stop armies from advancing, or at least slow them down greatly.

8And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.

Now the deserts will become so hot that it will be most difficult to even survive, must less think of warfare. (There is much Desert country around the mideast.) For the most part, people will probably be forced to stay inside. Perhaps again, the forces of the antichrist will be pressured to fight against these odds.

10And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,

Now we see that God is going after the kingdom of the antichrist. Total darkness day after day would indeed slow down anything armies would plan to do. However, warfare still wouldn't impossible - just extremely difficult!

12And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.

13And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.

14For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

I hadn't thought if this before, but by this time, every human with the mark of the beast will be extremly angry with God. They know all this torment is coming from Him!

9And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.

So we see that it will be an easy task for these spirits to persuade the armies of the world, (most of which are probably now under the command of the beast) to attack God. They blame Him for all their miseries.

Are all these things enough to stop the terrible tribulation brought on by the wrath of Satan as he works through the antichrist to destroy mankind? I am guessing they are. No matter how bad satan wants to destroy, he needs the help of people, and God has basically put all men out of commission, as far as waging war. They are in far too much pain and agony to fight.

It seems reasonable, thinking about it, that as the antichrist builds his armies during the first 42 months, there will be countries attacked, and many people killed. Through this time of the trumpets, God pours out an equivilent amount of judgement to slow down whatever the beast is doing. As time moved into the second half of the week, the antichrist, now powered by satan himself, greatly increases the tribulation, and in turn, God greatly increases His torture, finally to the point that the antichrist's military is stopped in their tracks, so to speak. I am sure that the time immediately after the AOD will be just like the holocaust and worse, but nearly all over the world. It will be hell on earth to survive for Jews and Christians. Only the remnant will be protected. (This is one reason I am convinced of a pre-trib rapture.)

Anyway, this is a big departure in thinking for me. Thanks for "pointing" me in this direction. It does make sense. I was always puzzled on how the 70th week could be shortened when the timing is written so many times.

Please, feel free to comment!

Coop

A Brother In Christ · Jan 11, 2006

exodus19 said:
i see your points point but do not entirely agree.

on the first point that the rapture occurs between is interesting and can be seen that way , however if you take into consideration all the rest of the verses you will see it as the preparation for the throne ie Judgement and the revealling of the seals, which essentially will bring in confirmation and anointing of those of faith as you see being given the white garments and the 144,000, being mentioned in 7 and those with the seal in their foreheads.
you need to have the presence of messiah in order to confirm with seal.

please say this again...what is your point?

now regarding thess 4 :16 ,17 this is actually the shout, the announcement " i am messiah , here with you" not the trumpets or angels speaking but then the call to order which is 17 which is in line with what is going on between 3:22 and the 4:1, if you wish.

when the Lord comes they have time to believe till their death.. when the kingdom of the heavens start there is only believers from the old testament and the tribulation

this is the set up for the the throne, which Paul wrote based upon OT repetitions regarding the 'prince of peace' and his imminent return.

like luke 12:49 I am come to throw fire on earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled? 50 But I have a baptism to be baptised with; and how am I distressed till it be accomplished! 51 Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, NO; but rather division:

no one knows the day or hour yet the hour or day is known when it is revealled since the Lord and messiah are one and the same in Word. What saith the Holy Prophet, saith the Lord.

If we are in Jacob's trouble/ Daniels 70th week/ The Great tribulation we now that this is seven years long...so the Rapture has to happen before the man of sin can be revealed 2 thes 2:3

now regarding your last point and reference of cor 5:1-10 is not entirely accurate since the implied time for that writing was pertaining to the activities then and not in the 2nd coming.

Yes this is the reason why God taught the Rapture ..what ever circumstanses that God has happening to you ....the rapture may happen today so hold up under the pressure...

however, the implied expression that fornication is prevelent can be understood as well in rev ch 2 & 3 since much false preaching is coming from the podium of kings and evil rulers in their liberal governments of so called freedoms and the medias liberal ways of promoting fornication through their mediums.

nice thoughts though

???

frankDH · Jan 13, 2006

There area lot of opinions here. I am post trib.

Does everyone here agree that the purpose of the rapture is for Christ to retrieve his bride?

Frank

calidog · Jan 13, 2006

frankDH said:
There area lot of opinions here. I am post trib.

Does everyone here agree that the purpose of the rapture is for Christ to retrieve his bride?

Frank

yes...pre-trib

exodus19 · Jan 13, 2006

good am

though the post #232 by le coop commenting on his view of the days ahead.
the problem is the physical rendering to the words of the Holy spirit and the subsequent opinion that so much physical disasters will take place.

step back for a moment and listen ,

the son does not fight with weapons but with words, he's not alone in his quest of following through on the Promise of God, for with are standing hundreds of thousands see 14:1 and 17:14' and these go forth and make war with the nations whose mark of god is in their foreheads.

whose mark? the mark that is the new spirit, given by the son.
what is the new spirit?
the two edged sword.
are you hearing and aggreeing? if not, then you are missing some ingrediants somewhere.
so since there is an army set up and they do not fight with arms as in guns then what would all the vials represent if you were to remove the concept of physical destruction.

What now is destroyed is your spirit being captured, or devoured by the enemy lest you be a faithful angel and not defiled with women awaiting the call or the appearence of messiah/

did you understand that statement?

let's go slowly...... one thing at a time or maybe two (-;

exodus19 · Jan 13, 2006

3 unclean frogs come out of the mouth of the beast, dragon and false prophet.

do you understand this now?

or does it take th symbolism to be explained?

now this too is not the first time frogs appear in the Holy Prophets Words, but remember the plague of Moses and there were frogs then too.

go figure your mythological stories put forth by the erroneous heads of christianity that those were actually real poisonous frogs.

here is another proof that they lie when the move their lips, and they are the false prophets who sit side by side with the beasts, dragons and esp the mighty Queen herself.

care to comment perhaps here we may make some headway.

this is a small part of the seals that are sitting here at my side that expose the truth and as well as being a small part of the " new spirit" that the angels and saints will receive at the white throne judgement " superduperdome Party" HINT HINT HINT.

come now guys, lets talk about frogs and even the Moses story if you like, then we might start seeing better the other myth stories.

and even eventually begin to break down all you physical ideas of what was written spiritually pertaining to man/ human and not some 'pie in the sky' retreat story. LOLOLOL

this one's for you birthday boy!

(*_*)

frankDH · Jan 13, 2006

calidog,

We become a part of the bride by becoming a part ofthe body of Christ [Rom 7:4]. The body of Christ is the church [Col 1:18]. We become a part of the body of Christ, and therefore the church and bride, by being baptized into Christ's death [Rom 6:3-6].

It is through the baptism of the Spirit that we are baptized into Christ's death [1 Cor 12:13]. It is through the baptism of the Spirit that we are saved [1 Pet 3:21].

If salvation can be had in the trib, it comes by being baptized into Christ's death through the Spirit. That makes the trib saved a part of the body of Christ, and the church, and the bride. The rapture can't take place until the bride is complete.

Frank

L0U · Jan 13, 2006

Coop said:
We know that the abomination of desolation will be near the midpoint, because Daniel said "in the midst [middle]. So then, you are saying that "great tribulation" will start very near the midpoint of the week, after the AOD.

At this point I would say yes. And also of interest, it is at this point when Michael will "stand still" in his defense of Israel. (Daniel 12:1) And satan will be cast out of heaven to persecute the woman (Israel) and the remnant (the church) of her seed (Christ). (Revelation 12, Galations 3).

That day" here is referring back to the previous verse that mentions the "day of Christ." So you are saying that the "day of Christ" is the same as the "day of the Lord." I think this needs to be proven.

It should be obvious the Jesus Christ IS the Lord.
It also should be obvious to us the 'the day of Christ' and the Day of the Lord' and 'the Day of the Lord Jesus Christ' are all speaking of the same day.

Paul knew this:

"So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ."

It is JESUS Who 'comes as a thief' at the Day of the Lord which 'comes as a thief in the night'.

However, I cannot see in these verses why you would make the statement that you made: "this [great tribulation] is to occur before the Day of the Lord:" Please explain why this statement is valid concerning these verses. It would seem to me that the AOD would happen after the man of sin is revealed, or perhaps at the same time. Your first point was that great tribulation would be after the AOD, but now it seems like you are saying that it would be before it.

The Day of the Lord is to be preceded by the cosmic disturbence noted by the Lord as occuring 'After the tribulation (i.e., 'great tribulation', verses 15-21) of those days'.

Jesus and Paul taught the very same sequence of events concerning the coming of the Lord.

1.) Apostacy (Matthew 24:9-12)
2.) Coming of the man of sin (Matthew 24:15-20)
3.) Great tribulation by anti-Christ (Matthew 24:15-26)
4.) The Day of the Lord (Matthew 24:27-31)

This was the very same sequence that was held to in the early church.

Although I'm sure that anti-Christ would like people to believe that the great tribulation by his hand is the Day of the Lord, it is NOT. Jesus Christ ALONE will be exalted in the Day of the Lord.

L0U · Jan 13, 2006

Coop said:
I am still working on the idea of "the tribulation" being different than "the 70th week."

Coop, I don't believe I ever said that. What I believe is that the great tribulation begins within/ at the middle of the 70th week. The Lord then comes to cut short the great tribulation for the sake of His elect and to bring wrath (trumpets, vials) upon an unrepentant humanity.

When Exactly Is the Rapture?

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