When Exactly Is the Rapture?

DeirdreB said:

Hello,

As a very new (hours old) member of CF, I have a deep love of eschatology and want to jump into the disussion. As I read your post, I thought (respectfully) what is your point? Are you suggesting that the restrainer was known to the church of Thessolonian (which I agree). Or do you suggest like the pre-tribbers do that the restrainer is the Holy Spirt (of which I am not convinced). By the way, I beleive that the restrainer is Michael. I can see you took a lot of effort to provide empirical evidence and I respectfully wait for your reply.

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Welcome DeirdreB! I hope you can stand the heat - for this place can get quite hot! He he!

I am pre-trib, as was Paul!

We are the restrainer, with the HS inside us! We have been given authority over all devils and demons, and the king of then, satan. But when we are gone...... he is revealed.

Coop

L0U said:

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New King James- "who come out of the great tribulation"

American Standard- "These are they that come of the great tribulation"

Living Bible- "These are the ones coming out of the Great Tribulation"

Revised Standard- "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation"

Simple English- "They are the ones who came through the great trouble"

New American Standard- "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation"

New Jerusalem with Apocrypha-"These are the people who have been through the great trial"

New American with Apocrypha- "These are the ones who have survived the time of great distress"

Holman Christian Standard- "These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation"

Good News- "These are the people who have come safely through the terrible persecution"

Young's Literal- "These are those who are coming out of the great tribulation"

Darby Translation- "These are they who come out of the great tribulation"

Latin Vulgate- "et dixit mihi hii sunt qui veniunt de tribulatione magna"

Weymouth Bible- "They are those," he said, "who have just passed through the great distress"

Literal- "|3778| These |1526| are |3588| those |2064| coming |1537| out of |3588| the |2347| affliction |3173| great,"

Amplified Bible- "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation (persecution),"

etc.
etc.
etc.

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"great tribulation"- great affliction


I've got it Lou, I' ve got it! I got it the first time! So they have come out of great affliction. As I said, this destroyed my entire line of thinking ...but I hate to be wrong, so I am so glad that you have corrected me here. Now, in your mind, when does this great affliction start? Can we identify this time in the book of Revelation?

Coop

lecoop said:

Welcome DeirdreB! I hope you can stand the heat - for this place can get quite hot! He he!

I am pre-trib, as was Paul!

We are the restrainer, with the HS inside us! We have been given authority over all devils and demons, and the king of then, satan. But when we are gone...... he is revealed.

Coop

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Hi Coop,

I am sure I have a little somethin, somethin to cool you off.

I am always amazed at pre-tribbers who provide questionable "evidence" of a rapture at the beginning of the 70th week as described by Daniel. But for discussion purposes let's entertain the pre-trib rapture theory. If you guys disappear at the beginning of the 70th week, who does the antichrist persecute when he decides to go buck wild on the church after the abomination of desolation?

Could they be new convert christians? Interesting since I thought you needed the Holy Spirit to get saved. How do these people get saved if the Holy Spirit has to leave in order for the antichrist to be revealed?

Lou,

Thank you for your response to my post. I am curious if you support the pre-wrath rapture position?

having fun yet/

guess, guess, guess, try all you want, you have no weight, these discussions are going on on 100 boards throughout the world and even more.

the same points hashed out over and over.

sorry unless messiah is in you midst nothing shall be understood,

that 's just prophetic teachings

it did not happen at 33 ad nor did it at nero's wonderful reign at 70 ad

you have no recording of the seals, nor whote throne nor lambs book nor a promised land .

you are simply bending you minds over nothing.

i have the seven seals, and they will be opened at the appropriate time_____period.

the angels, the devil, satan, the horses, the number 666, the 3 woes, the heavens opening, the road map to the new city, what will life be like the whole cultural structure etc, and even the set up of the so courts. and so on and all the other incidentals will start soon, when you sit back and chill and open y9our hearts.

i need plenty of help, so send me emails and tell me you are starting to see the light.

like you are supposed to. read and understand, open your hearts.

pray and stop all sin , pray to increase you faith and ask God to show you a sign that you are in the right time.

receiving a new spirit requires a new bottle, new wine does not go well in old bottles.

Deirdre said:

I am curious if you support the pre-wrath rapture position?

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If by pre-wrath it is meant 'before God's wrath' or 'before the Day of the Lord', then yes, I believe that is Scriptural. But this will be "after the tribulation of those day's", so I suppose I believe a mixture of post-trib/pre-wrath.

exodus said:

i have the seven seals

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Stop playing with words and say what you mean by this.

My Bible tells me that God has the book and the seals that seal it and the Lamb takes the book from the right hand of God; for The Lamb alone is worthy to take the book and open the seals.

What is it that you are saying?

I'm not sure you want to ask that question

L0U said:

If by pre-wrath it is meant 'before God's wrath' or 'before the Day of the Lord', then yes, I believe that is Scriptural. But this will be "after the tribulation of those day's", so I suppose I believe a mixture of post-trib/pre-wrath.

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Lou,



That is the beauty of the pre-wrath position because it supports valid claims from both pre-trib and post-trib positions and creates a more comprehensive view of the rapture that is based on scriptures and not on man's opinion.



Most pre-wrath sites I visit, take care to accurately cite scriptures that support what the Bible is saying about the rapture without the double-talk found on some of the pre-trib sites (where they say one thing and then quote another). Also, most pre-wrath sites I have encountered are clear to state when they are giving their opinion about what will take place versus the scripture-based facts (ie how pre-tribbers declare that the restrainer is the Holy Ghost versus a pre-wrather will say it is their opinion that the restrainer is Michael)



As someone raised in the pre-trib tradition, I was disturbed to say the least when I realized that what the preachers and the movies (Left Behind) were saying about the rapture is not what the scriptures say. It took a minute to reconcil with the discrepanices, but I realized the rapture is not based on what I would like to happen but on what the scriputures clearly state will happen.



The pre-wrath view in my opinion is an important one to understand because if a pre-tribber believes that he/she will not be here for the confirming of the covenant with many, as decribed in Daniel, how will they react if it does happen in their lifetime. Will they immediately react and recognize the antichrist and signs that they have been so voiceably dening? Will they become disillusioned with the Church and follow some other false doctrine? Or will they beleive the lie and believe that the antichrist is just another tree-hugging world peace fanatic?



We are at the end of the race. Why would God provide signs that we would not be here to see?



Take a look at this brief pre-wrath overveiw:

Pre-wrath overview:

We do not refer to Daniel's 70th week (7 years) as the seven year tribulation period because it is not 7 years of tribulation. We believe that the 70th week begins with the confirming of the covenant (which I now suspect might be done in secret). During this 1st 3 and 1/2 years, the first 4 seals will be opened. At the midpoint of the 3 1/2 years the antichrist will reveal himself by defiling the temple in Jerusalem. It is at the midpoint that we understand that the great tribulation will begin. The church will suffer great tribulation at the hand of Satan who has been given 3/12 years to reign. We know from scripture that Satan's wrath against the church will be cut short.

Matthew 24: 21-22
21For then there will be great tribulation (affliction, distress, and oppression) such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now--no, and never will be [again]. 22And if those days had not been shortened, no human being would endure and survive, but for the sake of the elect (God's chosen ones) those days will be shortened.

Though we cannot predict which day or hour it will end we know it will not last for the full 3 /12 years (Bless God). We believe that we will see a sign in the stars, sun and moon announcing the beginning of God's wrath. This is glorious, for the scriptures also detail that after these signs, God gathers (raptures) his elect (the church) from the four corners of the earth. Right around this time in Revelation 7 a great multitude show up in heaven and the elders declare they are those who have come out of the great tribulation. At this time 144,000 Jews left on earth are sealed to protect them from God's wrath which is poured out beginning with the seventh seal.

I'd like to hear what you think about this?

Deirdre
"Rapture Ready"

DeirdreB said:

Hi Coop,

I am sure I have a little somethin, somethin to cool you off.

I am always amazed at pre-tribbers who provide questionable "evidence" of a rapture at the beginning of the 70th week as described by Daniel. But for discussion purposes let's entertain the pre-trib rapture theory. If you guys disappear at the beginning of the 70th week, who does the antichrist persecute when he decides to go buck wild on the church after the abomination of desolation?

Could they be new convert christians? Interesting since I thought you needed the Holy Spirit to get saved. How do these people get saved if the Holy Spirit has to leave in order for the antichrist to be revealed?

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Why do you think the HS will be leaving with the church? Of course He will still be here wooing people toward God. Millions will turn to God in the first 3 1/2 years. However, the athority the believers have with His anointing upon them will be gone. It is the church, with the anointing of the HS upon us, that is restraining the antichrist. When we go, the anointing goes with us, but of course the HS stays here. He is omnipresent.

Coop

DeirdreB said:

Lou,



...

Take a look at this brief pre-wrath overveiw:

Pre-wrath overview:

We do not refer to Daniel's 70th week (7 years) as the seven year tribulation period because it is not 7 years of tribulation. We believe that the 70th week begins with the confirming of the covenant (which I now suspect might be done in secret). During this 1st 3 and 1/2 years, the first 4 seals will be opened. At the midpoint of the 3 1/2 years the antichrist will reveal himself by defiling the temple in Jerusalem. It is at the midpoint that we understand that the great tribulation will begin. The church will suffer great tribulation at the hand of Satan who has been given 3/12 years to reign. We know from scripture that Satan's wrath against the church will be cut short.

I see what you are saying, and am following along. However, I disagree with your theory of the seals. If you had said first four trumpets I maybe could have tried to agree. The first seal was opened about 33 AD, and the next four, quickly after. We are now waiting on the sixth seal. We have not yet seen an worldwide earthquake. After this huge earthquake, the 7th seal will be broken, which is the "marker" for the beginning of the 70th week. Somewhere about here the antichrist will sign this 7 year treaty. While this is going on down here, the 7 angels with the seven trumpet are preparing to blow in heaven. The first six of these trumpets will be blown during the first 1260 days of the week. The 7th trumpet will mark the exact midpoint of the week.

Now, where in all this does God's wrath start? Does it start with the first trumpet? Maybe the second one? We know that the vials are God's wrath, for it is clealy written. But where does His wrath start? It is the rulers of the world that declare after the 6th seal, that the time of His wrath has come, but what do they know? Can we trust what they say? I welcome questions on the above.


Matthew 24: 21-22
21For then there will be great tribulation (affliction, distress, and oppression) such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now--no, and never will be [again]. 22And if those days had not been shortened, no human being would endure and survive, but for the sake of the elect (God's chosen ones) those days will be shortened.

We do not know how long these days would have lasted if they were not "shortened." BTW, is it the number of days that is "shortened," or is it the length of a day? Do you remember of darkness coming at noon? Do you remember of the sun and the stars giving 1/3 less light? Perhaps this means that the 24 hour day is shortened to an 16 hour day. Do you remember the verse that says the earth will move out of her place? We can suspect that satan has plans to wipe all humans off the planet - but God foils him yet again. So what is really shortened? One thing I am sure of, if God shortened the day to a 16 hour day, all computers and computer operators would go nuts! Probably most weapons of warfare would cease to function. Just a thought. On the other hand, if the number of days are shortened, then shortened from what to what? God has declared several times and places that the last half of the week will last 1260 days. Therefore, I cannot see this number changing. As we know that His return will be immediately after that.

Though we cannot predict which day or hour it will end we know it will not last for the full 3 /12 years (Bless God). We believe that we will see a sign in the stars, sun and moon announcing the beginning of God's wrath.
Do you have a verse?

This is glorious, for the scriptures also detail that after these signs, God gathers (raptures) his elect (the church) from the four corners of the earth.
This is a guess. The elect referred to here could be Jews, not the church.

Right around this time in Revelation 7 a great multitude show up in heaven and the elders declare they are those who have come out of the great tribulation. At this time 144,000 Jews left on earth are sealed to protect them from God's wrath which is poured out beginning with the seventh seal.
This would mean that God's wrath is started with the first trumpet. Could be.

I'd like to hear what you think about this?

Deirdre
"Rapture Ready"

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Coop

sorry to burst you bubble but the seals are opened in the first 3 1/2 days, of the white throne judgement or the battle of armageddon .
i belive if yu back to daniel there in chap 9 you will see it as a week the time is a week or 7 days, agian this the Lords 7 days.

i keep pointing to you all that the number 7 is a numbetr chich implies complete or that which is in God's hands.

you all get so attached to exactness and saying it will happen exactly to the last inch or second like this or like that word and you all work fromn differennt platforms.

just listen to yourselves stop this madness of exactness,

God's in control not you, you are stuck on times and there is no time in eternal time, the point is living in the now and in oneness with God, in perfect harmony.

victory over death removes all sense of time, don't you understand that?

Jesus didn't die, die, He still lives and has lived for th past 2000 years and has returned to tell you you to have lived before and will live again,

you have to see you are eternal souls, now that does not mean or imply you can go kill yourself and b/c you think you're christrian your going back to heaven.

the body is a gift of God , His tabernacle, He resides within as the Holy Spirit.

why do you think David said " peace be within" the soul Love and poerfect Wisdom is within, youdon;t have to sin , remove this false teachings, there is no sine in the kingdom of God.

isn't that the scripture, and heaven shall be on earth as it is in God.

What do you imagine a place so far away, when Jesus said live as i do, in heavenly peace, there is no death for one in peace.

there is no anxiety, no enviousness, no hate, just love and the desire to give love.

love is perfect love is God, love is heavenly bliss,

but you govern, evil boys are promoting idols as love and taking off the clothes of wooden stone hearted people and saying look at this love and doing the bumpy jitters in your face..
excuse me but you need to step up to living in the Spirit of perfect love

love in the Holy Spirit

see it's a question of blocking evil and evil's concepts of gods, for Jesus and God's words of love

hear carefully.

now trh seals are in God's hands always but who sits at the right hand of God?

that's right , sit here at my right hand while I make the world your footstool"

that 's the white throne judgement b/c the world is there and represented there

adn the seals reveal all the mysterys as well will defeat the nations.

so when i say the " superduperdome Party' i 'm giving you ideas as to how this all transpires and a visual as to the possibilites of where and how it will take place.

now if i'm wrong then i'm not messiah, correct.

so you telll me how better ot put revelation in perspective if the great white throne judgement is not on big autditorium of sorts and all the kingdoms and nations are there being represented over a 7 day period, of which the middle comes about at the 7 the trump at the opening of the heavens ie at 11:19, and the same son coming in the clouds is that same one coming in 19:11, which is correlated to the same from coming down from the mount with the song of Moses in exodus 19:11 after 3 days or risen from the dead in 3 days or the 3 millineum as 1 day is like 1000 years, this is the 3 day,

you cover those correlations with my life here on earth anc coinciding birth as a canadian as in outside of babylon and is 19.11 and here in georgia is 11:19 and you tell me if there is someone who fits this profile of son better in this world today.

i have watched all muy life and listen and been through all there is no this is the time, i have not made it , i'm 53 years young now, this is God's doing, and He has prepared the world for you and me to see His Golory not mine, His love Him praise Him , praise His name and you shall live in eternal peace, God is within i come outside, as son as you do i'm not the Fatrher, for He is Heaven and greatrer than i.

hear the Holy Spirit, these are not my words ,but who is with me and i in Him and i foreve sit at His right hand always, waiting to do His will.

Now cheer up we have lots of fun ahead of us, we will not, nor attempt to change the govern, king evil, he doesn't change he does the work for God's left hand,
we stay right unto right eousness..

peace my friends

lecoop said:

Why do you think the HS will be leaving with the church? Of course He will still be here wooing people toward God. Millions will turn to God in the first 3 1/2 years. However, the athority the believers have with His anointing upon them will be gone. It is the church, with the anointing of the HS upon us, that is restraining the antichrist. When we go, the anointing goes with us, but of course the HS stays here. He is omnipresent.

Coop

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Your suggestions that the power and authority of the church to restrain the antichrist is not supported scripturally. The scripture that speaks of the restrainer does so in the singular tense.

2 Thessalonians 2: 6-7 states:

“6 And now ye know that which restraineth, to the end that he may be revealed in his own season.

7 For the mystery of lawlessness doth already work: only there is one that restraineth now, until he be taken out of the way.”

Are you suggesting that Paul, a great scholar and author of voluminous works does understand noun-verb agreements? Do you really believe Paul said “he” and “one”, but was really suggesting us and we? The church is never referred to as “he” in the Bible.

DeirdreB said:

Your suggestions that the power and authority of the church to restrain the antichrist is not supported scripturally. The scripture that speaks of the restrainer does so in the singular tense.

2 Thessalonians 2: 6-7 states:

“6 And now ye know that which restraineth, to the end that he may be revealed in his own season.

7 For the mystery of lawlessness doth already work: only there is one that restraineth now, until he be taken out of the way.”

Are you suggesting that Paul, a great scholar and author of voluminous works does understand noun-verb agreements? Do you really believe Paul said “he” and “one”, but was really suggesting us and we? The church is never referred to as “he” in the Bible.

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2 Thess 2: 6 And now ye know that which restrains,
2 Thess 2:7 only there is he who restrains now until he be gone

The restrainer is an "it" in verse 6 and a "he" in verse 7. The Holy Spirit is both a person and a power.

holdon said:

2 Thess 2: 6 And now ye know that which restrains,
2 Thess 2:7 only there is he who restrains now until he be gone

The restrainer is an "it" in verse 6 and a "he" in verse 7. The Holy Spirit is both a person and a power.

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Please note that according to my study bible, the expression “what restrains him” is neuter but the masculine equivalent is in verse 7. Nevertheless, you still have provided no significant evidence showing the Holy Spirit as the restrainer. In order to understand who the restrainer is, we should really consider the details about the job of the restrainer. Please consider again 2 Thess 2:7:



“For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way.”

• The restrainer is someone who already has the job of restraining or hindering the work of the lawless one until [he/it] steps out of the way.
• To hinder means “to hold down.” “Taken out of the way” means "to step aside” or “get out of the way.” Therefore, the one who has the job of hindering the Antichrist will step aside. That means he will no longer be a restraint between the Antichrist and those the Antichrist is persecuting.

Another point to consider is what the restrainer is trying to prevent from happening. According to scriptures, the lawless one will eventually set himself up in the Temple and declare himself to be god, but will not be able to accomplish this until the restrainer gets out of the way.



2 Thess. 2:4:

2“…who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.”



The temple referred to is the Temple in Jerusalem. Therefore, the restrainer is a hinderer, who is currently protecting the temple in Jerusalem from defilement by the lawless one.



Though the Holy Spirit has been referred to in many ways as a counselor, comforter, teacher, etc, He has never been called a hinderer for Jerusalem. The only one who fits this description is the archangel, Michael.



Both Jewish and Christian scholars, recognize Michael as having a special guardianship relationship to Israel.



Dan. 10:12-13:

“12 Then he said to me, “Do not fear, Daniel, for from the first day that you set your heart to understand, and to humble yourself before your God, your words were heard; and I have come because of your words. 13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me twenty-one days; and behold, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, for I had been left alone there with the kings of Persia.”

In relation to Israel, Michael is also referred to as a “prince” who “holdeth.”



Dan. 10:21 (KJV)

“21But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince.”



“Holdeth” means “Chazaq” in Hebrew, which according to Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible can mean “to bind” or “restrain.” So according to Daniel, Michael has a restraining (or hindering) ministry on behalf of Israel.



Daniel also explicitly states in Daniel 12:1 that Michael will become still and a time of great trouble will occur that has never occurred before.



“And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince who standeth for the children of thy people [Israel], and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time”




“15Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place [temple] (whoever reads, let him understand),… 21For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.”



The Hebrew word for “stand up” is amad, which literally means to stand still. According to Strong’s Concordance, cease is another root meaning for amad. If a man is reclining or seated and is said to amad, he will stand "up." If a man is standing and active and said to amad, he will stand "still." In the context of Daniel, the archangel Michael, was already said to be actively defending Israel. To amad meant he would "stand still," "desist," or "cease" his defense on their behalf.

DeirdreB said:

Your suggestions that the power and authority of the church to restrain the antichrist is not supported scripturally. The scripture that speaks of the restrainer does so in the singular tense.

2 Thessalonians 2: 6-7 states:

“6 And now ye know that which restraineth, to the end that he may be revealed in his own season.

7 For the mystery of lawlessness doth already work: only there is one that restraineth now, until he be taken out of the way.”

Are you suggesting that Paul, a great scholar and author of voluminous works does understand noun-verb agreements? Do you really believe Paul said “he” and “one”, but was really suggesting us and we? The church is never referred to as “he” in the Bible.

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The Holy Spirit is a HE! And it is HE that gives us the anointing: the power to minister the gospel. Oh! And power and authority over the devil.
Coop

All this testimony against "pre-trib" rapture theory. Answer me this, if there isn't any pre-trib rapture, then why did Jesus say:

"Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man." (Luke 21:36)

If we are going to go through it (the great tribulation), then why would we have to pray to be accounted worthy to escape it? And if it isn't the great tribulation then what are we to escape from?

DeaconDean said:

All this testimony against "pre-trib" rapture theory. Answer me this, if there isn't any pre-trib rapture, then why did Jesus say:

"Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man." (Luke 21:36)

If we are going to go through it (the great tribulation), then why would we have to pray to be accounted worthy to escape it? And if it isn't the great tribulation then what are we to escape from?

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Where is Jesus speaking? In the temple, thus his audience are the Jews.

The Greek word "Ekpheugo" means to "flee out of or away" or to "seek safety in flight". It does NOT mean that they will not be present and or removed by a so-called Rapture (God Forbid).

Likewise they are to "watch" for these signs so they will know the time to flee Jerusalem and this destruction.....

Lu 21:21Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.


The "they" I believe he speaks of is the 144,000 of the 12 tribes of Israel, the remnant. They will be protected and escape the wrath of God and are sealed prior to these plaques Rev. 7.

Mark.

ross3421 said:

Where is Jesus speaking? In the temple, thus his audience are the Jews.

The Greek word "Ekpheugo" means to "flee out of or away" or to "seek safety in flight". It does NOT mean that they will not be present and or removed by a so-called Rapture (God Forbid).

Likewise they are to "watch" for these signs so they will know the time to flee Jerusalem and this destruction.....

Lu 21:21Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.


The "they" I believe he speaks of is the 144,000 of the 12 tribes of Israel, the remnant. They will be protected and escape the wrath of God and are sealed prior to these plaques Rev. 7.

Mark.

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You are in error sir, this is part of the great Olivet Discourse and according to Matt 24:1; Mk. 13:1, they (Jesus and the disciples) were already outside of the temple. You better read that passage again.