When does the resurrection of the dead take place?

[expos4ever]

why do you think that a spirit being like God doesn't have a body?

Mostly because I do not see any Biblical evidence for it. You can, of course, counter-argue that there is no Biblical evidence that God does not have a body (I agree with you (I think) that references to God being "spirit" do not mean He has no body precisely because there is indeed Biblical precedent for the use of the word "spirit" to describe a physical body).

Bottom line: Right now, I do not have a strong opinion either way. But since I believe your belief is held by an exceedingly tiny minority of Christians through the 2000 years of Christendom, I am deeply skeptical that it makes Biblical sense to suggest that God (the Father) has a body.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Optimax said: ↑
The "Rapture" is a scriptural teaching.
Paul said for us not to be ignorant.

Notice also in verse 15 that what He is telling us is by the word of the Lord...........

ok Optimax, but i don't subscribe to the rapture theory. i simply don't find it biblical.

i don't want to derail the thread with that.

if you want, make another thread and i'll speak to you there on it.

Yeah, as a Preterist, I don't subscribe to that either. [There is a plethora of threads about that on the Eschatology board]
Anywho, I believe the doctrine of Zionist Dispensationalism has done more harm to the Christian Church than most any other doctrine.....IMHO

http://graceonlinelibrary.org/category/eschatology/dispensationalism/

http://graceonlinelibrary.org/escha...-return-and-the-rapture-by-cornelis-p-venema/

Evaluating Premillennialism: Part II –
Christ’s Return and the Rapture by Cornelis P. Venema

No evaluation of Dispensational Premillennialism may ignore its teaching of a two-phased return of Christ, the first phase of which is commonly known as the rapture. This feature is its most widely known aspect. Popularized by such best-selling books as Hal Lindsey’s The Late Great Planet Earth, the film The Return, and bumper stickers warning others that in the event of the rapture the vehicle will be without driver and possibly passengers — Dispensationalism has enjoyed a large following among conservative Christians, especially in North America.

The view that has predominated in Dispensationalism is known as pre-tribulational rapturism. As noted previously, the older classical version of Dispensationalism held that the first phase of Christ’s return, his ‘coming’ or ‘parousia’, would precede a seven-year period of tribulation, and that the second phase of Christ’s return, his ‘revelation’ or ‘appearing’, would introduce the millennium or one-thousand-year reign of Christ on the earth..................

.........Dispensationalism has a pervasive influence not only extensively, but also intensively. It is usually the case that those who embrace its teachings as a system are affected in almost every area of their theological thinking.
So pervasive is its effect on those who have become its pupils, that even those who have come to see the error of its basic presuppositions testify that dispensational cobwebs have remained in their thinking for a long time after the initial sweeping took place...........................

...............

....................

.

 

[YSam44]

I agree, my argument was incorrect. However, I am still exceedingly skeptical that a Biblical case can be made that God has a "body".

And how can He not... To the one you were replying to... Yes, God is spiritual, he has a spirit body... we have a physical body... ours is natural to us... God's body would be natural to Him..yet he has a body Read 1 Cor 15...

The bible states that God formed us after His image and His likeness... So we wonder what God looks like... Look in the mirror

Yes God is spirit and glorified... The bible tells us God parted the sea with a blast from his nostrils...Moses was allowed to view the back of God as He passed by Moses...He covered Moses with His hand... Christ face shines like that of the sun...

The bible says God has a body!!!!

 

[YSam44]

Mostly because I do not see any Biblical evidence for it. You can, of course, counter-argue that there is no Biblical evidence that God does not have a body (I agree with you (I think) that references to God being "spirit" do not mean He has no body precisely because there is indeed Biblical precedent for the use of the word "spirit" to describe a physical body).

Bottom line: Right now, I do not have a strong opinion either way. But since I believe your belief is held by an exceedingly tiny minority of Christians through the 2000 years of Christendom, I am deeply skeptical that it makes Biblical sense to suggest that God (the Father) has a body.

And how can He not... To the one you were replying to... Yes, God is spiritual, he has a spirit body... we have a physical body... ours is natural to us... God's body would be natural to Him..yet he has a body Read 1 Cor 15...

The bible states that God formed us after His image and His likeness... So we wonder what God looks like... Look in the mirror

Yes God is spirit and glorified... The bible tells us God parted the sea with a blast from his nostrils...Moses was allowed to view the back of God as He passed by Moses...He covered Moses with His hand... Christ face shines like that of the sun...

The bible says God has a body!!!!

 

[YSam44]

Luke 24:39

39 “See My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself; touch Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have.”

EDIT: This is not conclusive if you do not consider a body to be flesh and bones, but it does clarify some things about what a spirit is and what a spirit is not.

However, the definition of body in regards to arms, legs, etc is similar to the following definition:

the physical structure of a person or an animal, including the bones, flesh, and organs.

The LDS do promote a "spirit body": https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spirit_body

Perhaps that is more in line with the definition you are suggesting?

A few more related, albeit not conclusive verses (one could argue that He has an invisible spirit body):

He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation (Colossians 1:15).

Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, to God who alone is wise, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen (1 Timothy 1:17).

For since the creation of the world his invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse (Romans 1:20)

Some conclusive results:

God is Spirit and does not have a body in the typical definition of body

God the Father is invisible

God the Father is not limited by a body (He is everywhere, not contained in a body, etc.)

No man can see the Father

It is very rare to have a reference to God the Father in bodily form - and it is easily attributed to an angel representing God in the few times it is referenced, or is in a vision, not in reality.

God the Father sits on a throne and the Son sits next to Him... He said to Christ, sit here at my right hand till I make your enemies your footstool....

And how can He not... To the one you were replying to... Yes, God is spiritual, he has a spirit body... we have a physical body... ours is natural to us... God's body would be natural to Him..yet he has a body Read 1 Cor 15...

The bible states that God formed us after His image and His likeness... So we wonder what God looks like... Look in the mirror

Yes God is spirit and glorified... The bible tells us God parted the sea with a blast from his nostrils...Moses was allowed to view the back of God as He passed by Moses...He covered Moses with His hand... Christ face shines like that of the sun...

The bible says God has a body!!!!

 

[OzSpen]

I agree with you that God does not have a body, but I think at least certain elements of your argument are vulnerable. Consider this from the link you provided:



Aren't you presuming that "to be spirit" entails not having a body? But that presumption is on shaky ground since we know that Paul, at least, uses the term "spiritual" to describe a body (1 Corinthians 15). It is all too easy for we 21st century westerners to read "spirit" and think "non-physical" because the concept of spirit, in our culture at least, really means non-physical (it means other things as well, but those are not relevant to the issue at hand). However, we have strong reasons to doubt that for the 1st century Hebrew mind, the term "spirit" entails non-physicality.

Luke 24:39 (ESV) refutes your view on a spirit having a body when Jesus, after his resurrection said, 'See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself. Touch me, and see. For a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have' (ESV).

Clearly Jesus understood 'spirit' as meaning not having flesh and bones. I'm sticking with Jesus.

You didn't mention the verse in 1 Cor 15 to which you are referring. Could that be 1 Cor 15:44, 'It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body' (ESV). What is meant by the resurrected 'spiritual body' is that is it a 'transformed body' that 'is not composed of "spirit"; it is a body adapted to the eschatological existence that is under the ultimate domination of the Spirit' (Fee 1987:786). To arrive at that conclusion takes a considerable examination of the text in context, but this is a sound view, based on the contextual and exegetical evidence. But I do not have the time to go into details. It's bedtime Down Under.

I will not fall for the line that God as spirit means he has a physical body on a parallel with the 'spiritual body' of resurrected believers that is described in 1 Cor 15:44. We are talking of two different beings in 2 different circumstances.

Oz

Works consulted
Fee, G D 1987. The First Epistle to the Corinthians (The new international commentary on the New Testament, F F Bruce gen ed). Grand Rapids, Michigan: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company.

 

[OzSpen]

And how can He not... To the one you were replying to... Yes, God is spiritual, he has a spirit body... we have a physical body... ours is natural to us... God's body would be natural to Him..yet he has a body Read 1 Cor 15...

The bible states that God formed us after His image and His likeness... So we wonder what God looks like... Look in the mirror

Yes God is spirit and glorified... The bible tells us God parted the sea with a blast from his nostrils...Moses was allowed to view the back of God as He passed by Moses...He covered Moses with His hand... Christ face shines like that of the sun...

The bible says God has a body!!!!

 

[OzSpen]

The bible says God has a body!!!!

ySam,

This is not true. The Bible states that 'God is spirit' (John 4:24) and Jesus confirmed that a spirit does not have flesh and bone. After his resurrection, Jesus said, 'See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself. Touch me, and see. For a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have' (Luke 24:39 ESV).

The Bible refutes your view, in spite of your 4 exclamation marks. Your assertion does not change the fact that a spirit has no flesh and bones. A spirit is not a physical being according to Jesus.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

why do you think that a spirit being like God doesn't have a body?

It is not for us to speculate. It has been revealed to us that God is spirit (John 4:24). To speculate as to why he is spirit has about as much meaning as ruminating on why left is not right.

Oz

 

[expos4ever]

Luke 24:39 (ESV) refutes your view on a spirit having a body when Jesus, after his resurrection said, 'See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself. Touch me, and see. For a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have' (ESV).

It is not that simple. Note this:

If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.

Clearly, Paul is describing the body of Jesus and, in that context, describes Jesus as a spirit. I think we are forced to conclude that, in this context at least, a "spirit" is a physical thing - the internal logic of the couplet of sentences requires.

You say "I'll stick with Jesus". I suspect you can guess what I will say "I have to stick with Paul as well. And since these two seem to be using the word "spirit" in fundamentally different ways, we need to accept that the word "spirit" is pretty open-ended and therefore we need to be careful in interpreting it"

I agree that God does not have a body, but the case cannot be made by simply claiming that a "spirit" is non-physical (this cannot be claimed for reasons just described) and then quoting that text about how "God is spirit".

 

[expos4ever]

The bible tells us God parted the sea with a blast from his nostrils...Moses was allowed to view the back of God as He passed by Moses...He covered Moses with His hand... Christ face shines like that of the sun...

The bible says God has a body!!!!

Surely you must know how vulnerable this argument is. As others have pointed out, there is every reason to suspect anthropomorphism (or whatever the word is) - the use of images of body parts in a metaphorical manner when referring to God's action.

 

[expos4ever]

The Bible states that 'God is spirit' (John 4:24) and Jesus confirmed that a spirit does not have flesh and bone. After his resurrection, Jesus said, 'See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself. Touch me, and see. For a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have' (Luke 24:39 ESV).

All this allows us to conclude that Jesus' use of the term "spirit" in this particular interaction implies non-physicality. We know that Paul describes the embodied Jesus as a "life-giving spirit".

If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.

The "so it is written" clause seals the deal: Paul is amplifying what he has just said - that there are "spiritual" bodies. So, here at least, a "spirit" is an embodied thing.

Again, I agree that God has no body, but the case cannot be made by assuming that the term "spirit" always entails non-physicality.

 

[All4Christ]

God the Father sits on a throne and the Son sits next to Him... He said to Christ, sit here at my right hand till I make your enemies your footstool....

And how can He not... To the one you were replying to... Yes, God is spiritual, he has a spirit body... we have a physical body... ours is natural to us... God's body would be natural to Him..yet he has a body Read 1 Cor 15...

The bible states that God formed us after His image and His likeness... So we wonder what God looks like... Look in the mirror

Yes God is spirit and glorified... The bible tells us God parted the sea with a blast from his nostrils...Moses was allowed to view the back of God as He passed by Moses...He covered Moses with His hand... Christ face shines like that of the sun...

The bible says God has a body!!!!

We can agree to disagree on that. I don't necessarily think it is always literal with things like the blast from his nostrils. We also have read from Paul that God is invisible, and we know that no one has seen God the Father except through the Son. Like I said - we can agree to disagree on this.

 

[OzSpen]

It is not that simple. Note this:

If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.

Clearly, Paul is describing the body of Jesus and, in that context, describes Jesus as a spirit. I think we are forced to conclude that, in this context at least, a "spirit" is a physical thing - the internal logic of the couplet of sentences requires.

You say "I'll stick with Jesus". I suspect you can guess what I will say "I have to stick with Paul as well. And since these two seem to be using the word "spirit" in fundamentally different ways, we need to accept that the word "spirit" is pretty open-ended and therefore we need to be careful in interpreting it"

I agree that God does not have a body, but the case cannot be made by simply claiming that a "spirit" is non-physical (this cannot be claimed for reasons just described) and then quoting that text about how "God is spirit".

When will the believer have a 'spiritual body'? It is at the time of the resurrection of the dead and it is that which is imperishable (1 Cor 15:42 ESV). Then it states that it is not the spiritual that is first, but the natural (v 46). At that time, we who have born the image of human beings will bear the image of the man of heaven (v 49). That's the time for the 'spiritual body'.

It's not that difficult when we read it in context. We know that the 'spiritual body will not be that of flesh and blood (v. 50), but when the dead in Christ are raised at the Parousia with the last trumpet, we shall be changed and become imperishable, putting on immortality (vv 50-55).

'But thanks be to God who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ' (1 Cor 15:57 ESV).

Oz

 

[expos4ever]

When will the believer have a 'spiritual body'? It is at the time of the resurrection of the dead and it is that which is imperishable (1 Cor 15:42 ESV). Then it states that it is not the spiritual that is first, but the natural (v 46). At that time, we who have born the image of human beings will bear the image of the man of heaven (v 49). That's the time for the 'spiritual body'.

All true, but I do not see how this responds to my argument which is basically that since we have Paul using the term "spirit" (in 1 Cor 15) to refer to a Jesus who is clearly embodied, we cannot assume that the term "spirit" as used elsewhere necessarily refers to something without a body.

 

[All4Christ]

All true, but I do not see how this responds to my argument which is basically that since we have Paul using the term "spirit" (in 1 Cor 15) to refer to a Jesus who is clearly embodied, we cannot assume that the term "spirit" as used elsewhere necessarily refers to something without a body.

"First Adam is of flesh and bone, whereas the second is a life giving spirit (paraphrased)". This passage is comparing flesh and bone vs "spirit", yet it is clear that Christ has a glorified, transformed spiritual body - not a new "spirit body". I do not believe that He is saying that Christ is a spirit, as God the Son Himself made it clear that He is not a spirit.

In this context - it is talking about how we are born physically with flesh and bones - and how we are transformed to a spiritual body (same body, but glorified), that is not of this world, but fit for Heaven.

The spiritual, glorified body is part of eternal life - the life giving spirit - but isn't a spirit in the sense of a "spirit body". The verses around this make the meaning clear.

Yes it uses the word spirit - but it is clear from context that it is not meaning spirit in the same sense of God the Father being a spirit. Context is key in this.

 

[expos4ever]

"First Adam is of flesh and bone, whereas the second is a life giving spirit (paraphrased)". This passage is comparing flesh and bone vs "spirit", yet it is clear that Christ has a glorified, transformed spiritual body - not a new "spirit body". I do not believe that He is saying that Christ is a spirit, as God the Son Himself made it clear that He is not a spirit.

In this context - it is talking about how we are born physically with flesh and bones - and how we are transformed to a spiritual body (same body, but glorified), that is not of this world, but fit for Heaven.

I agree with all this and am unclear whether you think I am saying anything different.

The spiritual, glorified body is part of eternal life - the life giving spirit - but isn't a spirit in the sense of a "spirit body". The verses around this make the meaning clear.

I agree, and am again not sure whether you think I am suggesting anything different.

Jesus' "spiritual" body is an actual physical thing - with arms, legs, head, mouth etc. As we agree, the "substance" is not the same as you and I have now but is rather "perfected".

My point has simply been that if Paul describes the embodied (resurrection body with arms and legs) Jesus as a "spirit", we cannot assume that the term "spirit" always denotes "non embodiment", and therefore we cannot, as Ozspen has been arguing, claim that the statement "God is spirit" proves that God has no body.

Is that clear?

 

[All4Christ]

I agree with all this and am unclear whether you think I am saying anything different.


I agree, and am again not sure whether you think I am suggesting anything different.

Jesus' "spiritual" body is an actual physical thing - with arms, legs, head, mouth etc. As we agree, the "substance" is not the same as you and I have now but is rather "perfected".

My point has simply been that if Paul describes the embodied (resurrection body with arms and legs) Jesus as a "spirit", we cannot assume that the term "spirit" always denotes "non embodiment", and therefore we cannot, as Ozspen has been arguing, claim that the statement "God is spirit" proves that God has no body.

Is that clear?

Ah ok. Yes I can agree that spirit - as is the case with the vast majority of all words - can be used with multiple meanings, though I think context clears it up. Thanks for clarifying!

One more note - from my perspective, context shows the difference between the verse "God is spirit" vs the verse about the first and second Adam.

 

[All4Christ]

Ah ok. Yes I can agree that spirit - as is the case with the vast majority of all words - can be used with multiple meanings, though I think context clears it up. Thanks for clarifying!

One more note - from my perspective, context shows the difference between the verse "God is spirit" vs the verse about the first and second Adam.

Scripture also discusses how God the Father is invisible, no one has seen the Father, etc. Due to scripture working in harmony together, I believe this (and more) is sufficient to clarify what meaning scripture is referencing when stating "God is Spirit".

 

[expos4ever]

Scripture also discusses how God the Father is invisible, no one has seen the Father, etc.

I agree - this is powerful evidence against the idea that God has a body (unlike this argument: (1) a "spirit" by definition cannot be a physical body; (2) The Bible says "God is spirit"; (3) Therefore, God cannot have a body).