When does the resurrection of the dead take place?

[ewq1938]

no resurrection for the damned.

Except scripture says there is:

Joh_5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

 

[JohnRabbit]

no resurrection for the damned.

why do you say that?

 

[Colter]

i've already posted a thread on the resurrection and now i think another element of the resurrection needs to be discussed.

when does the resurrection of the just and unjust take place?

Either in the dispensational resurrection on the mansion worlds or directly after death if one is spiritually advanced enough. Some translate directly and their mortal body consumed by spiritual flames.

 

[Archivist]

When does the resurrection of the just and unjust take place?

One week from Tuesday at 12:45 pm PDST in Walla Walla Washington.

Actually Avila Surfer has provided the best answer to your question.

 

[expos4ever]

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Indeed, but the author of these words is almost certainly not intending the readers to take this literally.

How do I know this? Because, at the risk of appearing immodest, I have done my homework. To wit:

1. I know that Daniel 7, which contains an extended metaphor of a Son of Man character moving up "on the clouds" to be enthroned in Heaven.

2. I know from knowledge of history that Daniel 7 was well-known to the Jews of Jesus' day;

3. I know that Jesus identified Himself as the Son of Man character from Daniel 7 in his interaction with Caiaphus ("you will see the son of man coming on the clouds").

4. Therefore, the modern image of a Jesus coming down on the clouds to gather the "raptured" is decidedly at odds with Biblical precedent - Biblical precedent has the son of man going up "on the clouds", not down;

5. I know from knowledge of history that it was common practice for people greeting an emperor to leave the city walls and meet that emperor "in the open air" outside the city gates. So when Paul writes of meeting the Lord "in the air", he does not mean that we will literally be in the air - he is drawing on a well-known image of the day that involves no one getting airborne!

There are many other reasons why the concept of the rapture is very weakly supported, if supported at all, in the Bible.

I confess to certain degree of mystification at the unwillingness of many Christians to understand that much Biblical language is metaphorical - not to be taken literally. Somehow the frankly absurd notion that the entire sprawling text of the Bible was written by simpletons who were not able to use literary device to good purpose has taken hold in much of western evangelicalism. I suggest this is clearly a major blunder.

 

[faroukfarouk]

No man shall know the time or the place, not even the Son- for only th Father knows, and He has hidden from all.

Aka- don't worry about it, it happens when it happens, focus your life and efforts on things other than the absolutely vexing topic if the end times. Not because its complicated (it isn't) but because man makes it far more invoked than it needs to be. He is coming "soon". That's all we need to know.

Jason Sanders: Paul indeed adds at the end of 1 Thess. 4 after speaking of the coming of the Lord: "Wherefore comfort one another with these words."

 

[mikpat]

We do not know the time and place——-true, but for those who review some of the early Church writings one can get a glimpse ( a guess) of a possible parousia, second coming as stated in the Nicean Creed (Catholic). Many of the Epistles of the Apostles contain occasional indications of the second coming of the Lord which will demonstrate His majesty and glory and will be a time for His pronouncement of judgment—-reward and punishment.

Some signs are without sufficient foundation but others seem reasonable: the rise of false prophets, a falling away of the faith, some sort of anti Christ, wars, famines, earthquakes, bitter persecutions, severe tribulations.

My personal opinion I think will be the " falling away from the Christian Faith…..

But as the poster stated—-the time of the last judgment (the parousia) —-God mercy (and patience) who knows——-
"The day of the Lord will come like thief in the night." (2Peter 3)

The resurrection of the dead on the last day, and all will be like Christ's Resurrection—- body and soul which is the complete human being……and Christ will judge to judge the living (at that time) and the dead….


The Resurrection is a supernatural mystery and reason alone cannot be adduced with any compelling proof in favor of the resurrection.. Some reasoning can be used based on justice, reward and punishment, unity of body and soul. And of course , by Faith—-Christ's Redemption, the Mystical Body of Christ, Grace, the Holy Eucharist…..

AMDG

 

[mikpat]

If Christ doesn't know when the End comes then He is not omniscient, then He is not infinite and subject to time—past, present and future. This conscept also destroys the belief of the Holy Trinity. It leaves Jesus a great prophet, that is all.

If Christ doesn't know when the end comes then He is not Perfection———-

 

[All4Christ]

If Christ doesn't know when the End comes then He is not omniscient, then He is not infinite and subject to time—past, present and future. This conscept also destroys the belief of the Holy Trinity. It leaves Jesus a great prophet, that is all.

If Christ doesn't know when the end comes then He is not Perfection———-

Very true. Jesus is fully God and fully man. While walking here on earth, He cooperated with the limitations of being a man. As God, however, He is worthy of worship, praise, glory and honor. As a human, He voluntarily operated under the limitations we humans have. As God, He is all-knowing. The hypostatic union of Jesus is a mystery, but is crucial to the plan of salvation.

 

[JohnRabbit]

Either in the dispensational resurrection on the mansion worlds or directly after death if one is spiritually advanced enough. Some translate directly and their mortal body consumed by spiritual flames.

never heard that one before.

 

[mmksparbud]

Indeed, but the author of these words is almost certainly not intending the readers to take this literally.

How do I know this? Because, at the risk of appearing immodest, I have done my homework. To wit:

1. I know that Daniel 7, which contains an extended metaphor of a Son of Man character moving up "on the clouds" to be enthroned in Heaven.

2. I know from knowledge of history that Daniel 7 was well-known to the Jews of Jesus' day;

3. I know that Jesus identified Himself as the Son of Man character from Daniel 7 in his interaction with Caiaphus ("you will see the son of man coming on the clouds").

4. Therefore, the modern image of a Jesus coming down on the clouds to gather the "raptured" is decidedly at odds with Biblical precedent - Biblical precedent has the son of man going up "on the clouds", not down;

5. I know from knowledge of history that it was common practice for people greeting an emperor to leave the city walls and meet that emperor "in the open air" outside the city gates. So when Paul writes of meeting the Lord "in the air", he does not mean that we will literally be in the air - he is drawing on a well-known image of the day that involves no one getting airborne!

There are many other reasons why the concept of the rapture is very weakly supported, if supported at all, in the Bible.

I confess to certain degree of mystification at the unwillingness of many Christians to understand that much Biblical language is metaphorical - not to be taken literally. Somehow the frankly absurd notion that the entire sprawling text of the Bible was written by simpletons who were not able to use literary device to good purpose has taken hold in much of western evangelicalism. I suggest this is clearly a major blunder.

It would be best if you at least quoted what you're talking about---

Dan 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
Dan 7:14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

It is obvious that is a vision--why??---because it says so.
It is also quite obvious that Thessalonians is not referring to a vision or a metaphor---Why?---because it says so.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

What people do to meet an earthly ruler has nothing to do with the Ruler of rulers coming down to get His people to take them up to be with Him,---His feet shall not touch this sinful world until it is made new. Perhaps you need to do a little more homework.

 

[expos4ever]

It would be best if you at least quoted what you're talking about---

Dan 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
Dan 7:14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

It is obvious that is a vision--why??---because it says so.

Of course it is a vision, but it establishes clear precedent of the "coming on the clouds" image to denote an ascent into heaven rather than a descent from heaven. That does not prove anything, but it certainly suggests that when Paul - who knew his Old Testament inside out - would not likely use the "coming on the clouds" image to refer to a descent (which is how rapture theology sees things).

 

[expos4ever]

It is also quite obvious that Thessalonians is not referring to a vision or a metaphor---Why?---because it says so.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

But this is obviously a metaphor! Clearly, the term "asleep" is being used to refer to the dead.

And that is a metaphor.

 

[expos4ever]

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout,....

Fair enough. I have a response to this that will have to wait, but I certainly concede that this is a clear reference to a descent. So I agree that my arguments to this point have a problem. I am still convinced that rapture theology is wrong, though, and I believe I can "fix" my argument so that is solid.

 

[mmksparbud]

A vision is not the actual thing actually taking place, it is a representation of what will be. A word from God saying this is what is going to happen is prophetic and always accurate. When Paul says this is the word of the Lord, that is exactly what He means. God said, this is what is going to happen---period. You want to believe something else based on what earthly men do instead of what the word of God says--fine, your choice.

 

[expos4ever]

What people do to meet an earthly ruler has nothing to do with the Ruler of rulers coming down to get His people to take them up to be with Him,---His feet shall not touch this sinful world until it is made new. Perhaps you need to do a little more homework.

Trust me, I have a done a lot of homework on this issue as you will shortly discover. Rapture theology is a product of the last 200 years and was unknown in Christendom before that time. It is also only widely believed in North America.

I am pretty sure you have no Biblical basis for this statement "His feet shall not touch this sinful world until it is made new", if by "made new", you mean purged of all sin, death, and other problems.

 

[expos4ever]

A vision is not the actual thing actually taking place, it is a representation of what will be. A word from God saying this is what is going to happen is prophetic and always accurate. When Paul says this is the word of the Lord, that is exactly what He means. God said, this is what is going to happen---period. You want to believe something else based on what earthly men do instead of what the word of God says--fine, your choice.

No. You are pre-emptively asserting that the vision must be interpreted literally, and that is clearly not a legitimate move. It could, of course, be intended to be taken literally but that remains an open question.

Let me ask you this. Here is a prophetic vision from Isaiah:

You will go out in joy and be led forth in peace; the mountains and hills will burst into song before you, and all the trees of the field will clap their hands.

Will the mountains and hills sing? Do you know any mountains that can sing?

Will the trees clap their hands? Do you know any trees that have hands?

Or take the Daniel 7 vision: No scholar with a lick of sense takes that vision literally - it is clearly metaphor. So it is demonstrably not the case that all visions are to be taken literally.

 

[mmksparbud]

I said a vision is not the actual thing taking place, did I not??? A word from God saying this is the way it is, is a whole different thing. A vision of the statue is not that these kingdoms depicted are actually pieces of that statue, it represents those kingdoms. It is however, literal as to what it represents. And the bible itself says, what those kingdoms are--Babylon, Medo-persia, --obviously kingdoms. Visions of animals resenting kingdoms--same thing, not literal animals, literal kingdoms.
The vision is not literal--mountains don't sing--the concept of joy is literal.------However, there was a video here about someone that has recorded the different sounds coming off trees and it was beautiful. Check this out......just look upo sounds from trees.

https://www.bing.com/search?q=sounds+from+trees&FORM=EDGNNC

 

[Hoghead1]

If Christ doesn't know when the End comes then He is not omniscient, then He is not infinite and subject to time—past, present and future. This conscept also destroys the belief of the Holy Trinity. It leaves Jesus a great prophet, that is all.

If Christ doesn't know when the end comes then He is not Perfection———-

Well, the Bible dos say that not even Christ knows when the end will come, just teh Father and Father alone.

 

[vinsight4u]

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