When does Marian veneration and devotion go too far? When is the line crossed?

[Root of Jesse]

Many Catholics would disagree with the above, but there is no denying that many would enthusiastically support the idea that Mary is a co-redeemer with God of all who are saved.

Your point??? That different people have different ideas of what the Church actually teaches? Yeah? So what?

 

[Root of Jesse]

Wrong.



Such an opinion has been voiced, yes, but as appealing as such language is to many people, there's no scriptural or logical basis for believing she had any part in planning the Incarnation or God's plan of salvation--if that's what you were getting at.

Mary "cooperated" with God, it might be said, but so did plenty of other people who figure in the life of Christ.

I didn't see where mkgal said anything about taking part in the planning. But she did partner with God. She said "Let it be done to me according to Your word."

 

[Root of Jesse]

Perhaps it is supposed to go something like this:

A woman is taking a walk in a park and hears splashing and yelling. She goes to see what it is, and she finds a man drowning in a lake, and he's yelling, "Help me! Save me!" Now, the problem is, she cannot swim; but she runs and finds somebody that can.

I think you got it...

 

[mkgal1]

I didn't see where mkgal said anything about taking part in the planning. But she did partner with God. She said "Let it be done to me according to Your word."

Exactly.

It's by our faith that we are credited as righteous. Mary's obedience to God's plan (and even just the recognition of her choice to have faith or not) is (IMO) huge. It's something that I believe no Christian should overlook.

Her participation in the beginning may be different than what is mentioned in the OP.....but I'm just bringing up the common unwillingness to explore a little more with an open mind (which is what Michael is doing.....exploring with an open mind). I think that's the necessary element needed for growth.

 

[Standing Up]

Check Leviticus - the term there also refers to those who are of the same household. Mark uses the term adelphos for Herod and Phillip (stepbrothers, born of 'different wombs').

Household and relationship is reckoned through a common male - not female. If you know of any use of adelphos/i in the Scriptures - OT and/or NT where this is not the case, please post it (as I have yet to find any).

In the Scriptures, and Greek usage of the time, the actual relationship is not known through the general term "adelphos", but through additional description. (See Plato, as well as OT usage, for example.)

The use of adelphos (which covers at least ten different relationships) is not evidence for other children of Mary.

Remember to use the Greek, not the Hebrew, to understand the brothers (Greek) of Christ. IOW, Hebrew meanings don't apply to the Greek meaning, had they wanted to imply a cousin of Jesus, there was a Greek word to use for cousin. So, as Optimax said, following the bible, Jesus had at least 4 brothers and 2 sisters.

 

[Standing Up]

"There are several questions based on Scripture that are often raised by those skeptical about the doctrine of ever-virginity. The first of these involves the passages which state explicitly that the Lord had "brothers." There are nine such passages: Matthew 12:46-47 and 13:55-56; Mark 3:31-32 and 6:3; Luke 8:19-20; John 2:12 and 7:3-5; Acts 1:14; and 1-Corinthians 9:5. The Greek word used in all these passages and generally translated "brother" is adelphos.

The Septuagint, the ancient Greek translation of the Hebrew Scriptures..."

This is the same error, reading a Greek word, then understanding it according to a Hebrew word.

Greek had a word for cousin. The apostles didn't use it. They used brother (same mother, different father).

 

[Standing Up]

Exactly.

It's by our faith that we are credited as righteous. Mary's obedience to God's plan (and even just the recognition of her choice to have faith or not) is (IMO) huge. It's something that I believe no Christian should overlook.

Her participation in the beginning may be different than what is mentioned in the OP.....but I'm just bringing up the common unwillingness to explore a little more with an open mind (which is what Michael is doing.....exploring with an open mind). I think that's the necessary element needed for growth.

We call her blessed.

 

[Sword of the Lord]

That still doesn't negate the possibility of half siblings, Standing Up.

 

[Thekla]

Remember to use the Greek, not the Hebrew, to understand the brothers (Greek) of Christ. IOW, Hebrew meanings don't apply to the Greek meaning, had they wanted to imply a cousin of Jesus, there was a Greek word to use for cousin. So, as Optimax said, following the bible, Jesus had at least 4 brothers and 2 sisters.

Actually, Greek has a relatively large, precise vocabulary for familial relationships -- associated with inheritance rights and responsibilities, as well as funerary roles. These are collapsed in vernacular usage.

As for "cousin" - which term for cousin ?

Sygenis is roughly kin (not cousin), anepsios is 'sister's child' or nephew.

Which other term is used in Scripture that means "cousin" ?

Note again that both Scriptural and secular Greek usage do use adelphos for a broad swath of relationships - relying on additional description for denoting what the actual relationship is.

And it is noteworthy to recall that in the OT/LXX, some cousins are referred to as "adelphos/i.

 

[marie alice]

Why do we ask for her prayers? Because the Apostles did so, they held her very highly during her life and after her death continued to ask for her prayers as she had ascended to heaven before them.

There is not an iota of corroboration from the infallible word of God to substantiate your specious claim.

 

[Rhamiel]

Mary has already agreed to bear Jesus. She gave birth to him over 2,000 years ago. Nearly 2,000 years ago Jesus died on the cross and rose again 3 days later. All of this has happened. He has redeemed us. The words "save us" are saying that Mary, right now, can save us. She participated with God in our salvation, but she didn't save us, nor can she save us, which is what the cross is asking her to do; the cross that only means anything to us because her Son, our Lord, died on it to save us.

on a personal note, I would not like having a cross like that

ask your Mother in Law what that cross means to her, you said she is not really a deep theological thinker, ok, but she still choose that cross for some reason, ask her the reason

I think you might be reading too deeply into what might be nothing more then simple devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary

this is a VERY simple symbol, a cross and three words, there is not a lot of context given
is this talking about eternal salvation? or to for being saved from a particular event?
is it talking about Mary saving someone of her own volition? it is it about the intersession of Mary to her Son our Lord Jesus Christ?
is the name of Mary over the cross to imply that her sufferings were united with the suffering of her Son on the cross?
I do not know, because I do not know who made that icon so I can not judge their intent, and it is so simplistic, it does not really say much

like I said, not my cup of tea, it looks too much like worship of a human being and lacks any qualifiers that might lead to a better understanding of the matter

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/...AdWkjN9EK1mWJbBD69BQTqzz6CgKIjZu3L-tJylnaUkf1

Immaculate Heart of Mary pray for us now and at the hour of our death amen

 

[Standing Up]

That still doesn't negate the possibility of half siblings, Standing Up.

Which half

Like I said, same mother and different father.

What we know it doesn't mean is cousin (different mother and different father, but same grandfather/mother).

 

[Albion]

There is not an iota of corroboration from the infallible word of God to substantiate your specious claim.

You're right. There is not a scintilla of evidence that the Apostles prayed to the Virgin. For that matter, we have no firm idea when or where it was that she died.

 

[MoreCoffee]

What we know it doesn't mean is cousin ...

How do you "know" that?

 

[MoreCoffee]

You're right. There is not a scintilla of evidence that the Apostles prayed to the Virgin. For that matter, we have no firm idea when or where it was that she died.

Eastern Tradition says it was in Ephesus that the Blessed Virgin Mary died.

What do you mean "There is not a scintilla of evidence that the Apostles prayed to the Virgin." Tradition tells us that they both asked for her prayers while she lived and they prayed for her prayers after she ascended.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

There is not an iota of corroboration from the infallible word of God to substantiate your specious claim.

I would consider it very strange if a Church that was established in 38ad did not know more Christian history than what is presented in the bible.

God be gracious to me a sinner.

 

[Optimax]

Eastern Tradition says it was in Ephesus that the Blessed Virgin Mary died.

What do you mean "There is not a scintilla of evidence that the Apostles prayed to the Virgin." Tradition tells us that they both asked for her prayers while she lived and they prayed for her prayers after she ascended.

All that "Tradition" of man is what deceives by making the word of God of none effect.

Mark 7:13
Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition , which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.
KJV

 

[MoreCoffee]

All that "Tradition" of man is what deceives by making the word of God of none effect.

The bible itself is the product of men. It did not drop from heaven, nor was it given by an angel and recited by men. Why pretend that Apostolic Tradition is any less a revelation from God than what is written in the bible?

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

I just upgraded my ignore list.

God be gracious to me a sinner.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I just upgraded my ignore list.

God be gracious to me a sinner.

I see what you mean. It is odd how some make it sound as if anything that men have done is wicked and ought to be ignored. What leaves me wondering is that so many who use the mantra about traditions-of-men also advocate speaking in tongues and modern day prophets. There's a level of inconsistency that is breathtaking in that.