When does Marian veneration and devotion go too far? When is the line crossed?

[LittleLambofJesus]

You convienetly left out part of what I posted.

It is not a doubt.

She had other children than Jesus.

Jesus had brothers and at least two sisters.

Matt 13:55-56
55 Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?

56 And his sisters , are they not all with us? Whence then hath this man all these things? KJV

That has been hotly debated on both GT and the Mariology board.
In the end, why does it matter?

http://www.christianforums.com/t7400512-77/
Did Jesus have brothers and sisters born of Mary [poll thread]

View Poll Results: Did Mary have children after Jesus was born

Yes, I/we believe Mary had children after Jesus was born

86 47.51%

No. I/we believe she did not have children after Jesus

72 39.78%

I am not sure

17 9.39%

Does it matter?

25 13.81%

http://www.christianforums.com/t5211795/
Did Mary, Mother of Jesus, have other children?

http://www.christianforums.com/t7626480-101/
How many other children did Mary have?

http://www.christianforums.com/t2127772-4/
Did mary have other children?

http://www.christianforums.com/t2224755-63/
Did Mary have children after Jesus?




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[OrthodoxyUSA]

Other Children and Mary is off topic anyway.

God be gracious to me a sinner.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

That has been hotly debated on both GT and the Mariology board.

In the end, why does it matter?

Other Children and Mary is off topic anyway.

God be gracious to me a sinner.

I recommend a sub-topic board be made on the Mariology board concerning the doctrine of "Mary having other children after Jesus".


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[Sword of the Lord]

I asked this question here rather than OBOB because there will only be one biased side allowed in OBOB. I want all perspectives, everyone's opinion. So that's that.

My mother-in-law is often ignorant of her faith. She is devoutly Catholic, loves Jesus and Mary, but really isn't all that educated in her faith. So I didn't ask what it meant to her. Doesn't really matter. To have Mary's name on the CROSS with "save us" is really crazy, and this is coming from someone that loves Mary and doesn't have much of an issue with venerating her (properly), and as someone very interested in EO (will probably end up converting at this point).

 

[Sword of the Lord]

I think a lot is missed by the perception that to honor and venerate Mary is to get dangerously close to idolizing her---so people go to the whole other extreme of not exploring the topic at all.

There is so much depth to Mary's role in our salvation. IMO......in order to not violate humanity's free will.....a human had to participate with God of her own choice (as Mary did). I just saw this image for the first time the other day:

Na Zdrowie! The Kloska Family Blog: Mary Comforts Eve

I love that image.

 

[mkgal1]

I can understand the reasoning behind that cross of your MIL's. I see it as going along with this:

....the Fathers see Mary not merely as passively engaged by God, but as freely co-operating in the work of man's salvation through faith and obedience. For, as St Irenaeus says, she 'being obedient, became the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race (Adv. Haer. III, 22, 4)’" (ibid.).

Mary, associated with Christ's victory over the sin of our first parents, appears as the true "mother of the living" (ibid.). Her motherhood, freely accepted in obedience to the divine plan, becomes a source of life for all humanity.~https://www.ewtn.com/library/papaldoc/jp2bvm33.htm

 

[Root of Jesse]

You convienetly left out part of what I posted.

It is not a doubt.

She had other children than Jesus.

Jesus had brothers and at least two sisters.

Matt 13:55-56
55 Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?

56 And his sisters , are they not all with us? Whence then hath this man all these things? KJV

There are two statements which mean different things here.
Jesus had brothers and sisters.
Mary had other children.

Catholics agree with the first, but we believe they were half-siblings.
We disagree vehemently with the second. There's no place in Scripture which says Mary had other children.

 

[Sword of the Lord]

I can understand the reasoning behind that cross of your MIL's. I see it as going along with this:

Huge difference in having a role in our salvation and the words "save us", as if she can actually do any saving at all.

 

[Albion]

I can understand the reasoning behind that cross of your MIL's. I see it as going along with this:

....the Fathers see Mary not merely as passively engaged by God, but as freely co-operating in the work of man's salvation through faith and obedience. For, as St Irenaeus says, she 'being obedient, became the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race (Adv. Haer. III, 22, 4)’" (ibid.).

Many Catholics would disagree with the above, but there is no denying that many would enthusiastically support the idea that Mary is a co-redeemer with God of all who are saved.

 

[mkgal1]

Huge difference in having a role in our salvation and the words "save us", as if she can actually do any saving at all.

She *did* partner with God in the whole plan of redemption though.....right? She's considered the "new Eve". Like that article stated, "Her motherhood, freely accepted in obedience to the divine plan, becomes a source of life for all humanity".

 

[Sword of the Lord]

Mary has already agreed to bear Jesus. She gave birth to him over 2,000 years ago. Nearly 2,000 years ago Jesus died on the cross and rose again 3 days later. All of this has happened. He has redeemed us. The words "save us" are saying that Mary, right now, can save us. She participated with God in our salvation, but she didn't save us, nor can she save us, which is what the cross is asking her to do; the cross that only means anything to us because her Son, our Lord, died on it to save us.

 

[mkgal1]

Many Catholics would disagree with the above, but there is no denying that many would enthusiastically support the idea that Mary is a co-redeemer with God of all who are saved.

That was a quote from Pope John Paul II.

 

[Albion]

She *did* partner with God in the whole plan of redemption though.....right?

Wrong.

She's considered the "new Eve". Like that article stated, "Her motherhood, freely accepted in obedience to the divine plan, becomes a source of life for all humanity".

Such an opinion has been voiced, yes, but as appealing as such language is to many people, there's no scriptural or logical basis for believing she had any part in planning the Incarnation or God's plan of salvation--if that's what you were getting at.

Mary "cooperated" with God, it might be said, but so did plenty of other people who figure in the life of Christ.

 

[mkgal1]

Mary has already agreed to bear Jesus. She gave birth to him over 2,000 years ago. Nearly 2,000 years ago Jesus died on the cross and rose again 3 days later. All of this has happened. He has redeemed us. The words "save us" are saying that Mary, right now, can save us. She participated with God in our salvation, but she didn't save us, nor can she save us, which is what the cross is asking her to do; the cross that only means anything to us because her Son, our Lord, died on it to save us.

Okay......I understand what you're saying----it's the present tense that's a problem. I agree that her participation is past tense.

 

[mkgal1]

Wrong.



Such an opinion has been voiced, yes, but as appealing as such language is to many people, there's no scriptural or logical basis for believing she had any part in planning the Incarnation or God's plan of salvation--if that's what you were getting at.

Mary "cooperated" with God, it might be said, but so did plenty of other people who figure in the life of Christ.

No.....that's *not* what I'm getting at. I never said anything like that (that she had any part in the planning of the Incarnation). I meant that she cooperated freely and willingly. God doesn't violate our free will. It was necessary (in my belief) for Mary to be a willing participant......trusting God.

 

[Sword of the Lord]

Perhaps it is supposed to go something like this:

A woman is taking a walk in a park and hears splashing and yelling. She goes to see what it is, and she finds a man drowning in a lake, and he's yelling, "Help me! Save me!" Now, the problem is, she cannot swim; but she runs and finds somebody that can.

 

[Albion]

Okay......I understand what you're saying----it's the present tense that's a problem. I agree that her participation is past tense.

Yes, but according to the OP, the cross bore the words "Mary (and) Save us."

It's not reasonable to conclude that the meaning is simply that "Save" means
"cooperated," and/or that it's only referring to something that occurred and was accomplished in the past.

 

[mkgal1]

Perhaps it is supposed to go something like this:

A woman is taking a walk in a park and hears splashing and yelling. She goes to see what it is, and she finds a man drowning in a lake, and he's yelling, "Help me! Save me!" Now, the problem is, she cannot swim; but she runs and finds somebody that can.

I do think that's probably the thought behind it. Also.....just as the Holy Spirit/Jesus/God are all one......since Mary is believed to also be united with God in heaven......couldn't you conclude that there is now unity there?

 

[MoreCoffee]

I asked this question here rather than OBOB because there will only be one biased side allowed in OBOB. I want all perspectives, everyone's opinion. So that's that.

My mother-in-law is often ignorant of her faith. She is devoutly Catholic, loves Jesus and Mary, but really isn't all that educated in her faith. So I didn't ask what it meant to her. Doesn't really matter. To have Mary's name on the CROSS with "save us" is really crazy, and this is coming from someone that loves Mary and doesn't have much of an issue with venerating her (properly), and as someone very interested in EO (will probably end up converting at this point).

I am not sure why having "Mary" and "save us" in words in the foreground with a cross in the background is "crazy". I often say "pray for us sinners" when addressing Mary the mother of our Lord. I say it because I want Mary to pray to the Lord our God for my salvation and the salvation of others. And the cross is a visible sign and reminder of what the Lord did to save sinners such as myself. So the words "Mary & save us" seem most appropriate as a request for Mary's prayers for us to the Lord our God that he save us from our sins.

 

[Hammster]

MOD HAT ON

Moved from General Theology.
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