When Does Full Sanctification Take Place?

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enoch son

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brotherjim said:
[font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Phil.[/font]

[font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.[/font]

[font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]3:13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,[/font]

[font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]3:14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.[/font]

[font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

[/font]
That's the point under perfection Paul can't state anything about perfection because of the law of perfection. But ver. 15 gives his state of being away. I think this has to do with Stephen when he "SHINED LIKE AND ANGEL" the outward lighting that come out of his being. I don't think Paul ever forgot it.
 
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Godzchild

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enoch son said:
Well if you think it comes by time in the pew you will be sitting there a long,long,time! It's by grace at salvation. The word says we are holy,perfect,and complete before Him HIDDEN IN CHRIST IN GOD. But knowing man God has fallen short and still needs mans help to make it right. I think I will vomit now.

^^^^ what he said :)
 
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NewSong

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I guess I do not understand what ya'll are saying.... I just read a couple of comments and not finding fault so much as I am trying to hear what is said and not assume.
Are you making the distinction of perfect and equating it with "full sanctification"....or as I have heard it said, "entire sanctification"... I don't think it is something that we can make happen --- and I am for one concerned that the picture I am receiving "if I have understoood correctly" is that we are somehow supposed to acheive some kind of perfection here on earth?
 
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HermanTacticus

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NewSong said:
I guess I do not understand what ya'll are saying.... I just read a couple of comments and not finding fault so much as I am trying to hear what is said and not assume.
Are you making the distinction of perfect and equating it with "full sanctification"....or as I have heard it said, "entire sanctification"... I don't think it is something that we can make happen --- and I am for one concerned that the picture I am receiving "if I have understoood correctly" is that we are somehow supposed to acheive some kind of perfection here on earth?

My argument at the start is that it is impossible to achieve sinless perfection on earth, and God does not expect us to.

In fact, trying to establish our own holiness and righteousness instead of accepting the work of Jesus on the cross - that all our sins are taken on Himself to see us free from them - we are practising unbelief instead of faith.

I see no difference between 'full' sanctification and 'entire' sanctification. Both words are synonyms, so they are talking about the same thing. I believe that full/entire sanctification happened the moment we acknowledged that Jesus died for us on the Cross, and accepted Him into our hearts as personal Saviour.

We don't need to work toward another level of holiness, because it has already been done for us. We now grow in grace and in the knowledge of God
 
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NewSong

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As I have shared here on the forum, I was raised under the belief that it was a "second work of grace" and today my really awesome father who is taking all this horrible prednisone that makes him very emotional said to me on the telephone, "I am very concerned for you." My dad is still in the same church we were raised in. He made a statement that people used to get saved in my living room all the time and now none of that happen--I was working for that entire sanctification when people were getting saved and now I am not. I haven't been able to stop crying since my dad expressed his love and concern for my spiritual condition. I love him so much and would love to have everything I can from God so that my dad would be able to have his heart comforted by my walk with GOD being right. I know the 100 mg of prednisone is causing him to be emotional but I also believe my dad is genuinely concerned. I cannot shake it tonight.

Thank you for your reply.
 
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Andrew

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Oscarr said:
The Holiness movement believes that Full Sanctification is a subsequent event that happens after salvation. Their view is that a person can reach the state of sinless perfection. This thinking is part of the foundation of the many Pentecostal denominations and movements that arose out of the Holiness movements of the late 19th Century.

I believe that the doctrine that a person is not fully sanctified until he or she reaches a state of sinless perfection is a load of evil nonsense, and has diverted thousands of well meaning Christians from the truth about where they stand with God. Instead of enjoying what Jesus did for them on the cross, they have spent most of their lives struggling with shame, guilt and sin consciousness because of their inability to reach the state they desire.

Holiness type church leaders have been responsible for this as well, by preaching the need for reaching sinless perfection before God can fill them with the Holy Spirit, or before He can use them in ministry. I believe that these leaders are devaluing the Blood of Christ, and reaping the consequences to themselves and their congregations. They want revival, and do not get it because they are preaching false doctrine.

So when is a person fully sanctified?

I believe that a person is fully sanctified the moment they accept Jesus as saviour.

But, you might say, I accepted Jesus five minutes ago, and I still drink, smoke, touch, kick the cat when I get angry, live with my girl/boyfriend, (and any other sin you want to name). Does that mean that I am fully sanctified?

I say Yes!!!

Because full sanctification is not how you view yourself, or how any other person views you, but how God views you. How does God view a person who has accepted Christ as saviour?

He sees them as perfectly holy and clean in His sight. How is He able to do that, when they still have their bad habit patterns still there in them?

When Jesus died on the Cross, he took those sins upon Himself, and washed the sinner with His Blood, completely cleansing them from the guilt and power of those sins. This took effect the moment they gave their hearts to Christ. They are now as clean and pure as Jesus is - in the eyes of God - because He looks at us through the righteousness of Christ. As soon as someone accepts Christ, they swap their old dirty rags righteousness for the righteousness of Christ, and so, God views and reckons them as fully sanctified.

Does this mean we continue to sin?

Of course not! The Holy Spirit starts working in us to remove the areas of our lives that God does not want to stay there. So, a person loses the desire to drink and smoke, develops a conviction that the de facto relationship should turn into marriage, starts to love the cat, becomes more patient instead of angry. This process goes on throughout our lives, but it will not be complete until we are united with Christ at the second coming.

But we are not weighed down with the burden of our sin. We can go on and be filled with the Spirit, minister in power for Him, enjoy fellowship with God and others without being hindered by a sense of guilt or shame. From the monent we received Christ, we can stand before God with absolute confidence that we are totally clean in His sight.

This is the wonderful good news of the Gospel.

I'd have to triple Amen that!

Christians need to wake up and smell the coffee -- they are already as sanctified as sanctified can be, by the blood of the Son.

The words "sanctified" and "holy" are the same word in Greek. And it simply means "set apart" unto God. You are already set apart by the blood -- nothing else will do. Your attempts at being holy can't cause you to be finally set apart unto God, as only God can do it.

The more we believe this, the more our actions and thoughts will line up with the truth that is already there.
 
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brotherjim

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"Paul . . . to the church . . . may the God of Peace sanctify you wholly [or, completely; NKJV]. . . ." 1Thes. 1:1, 5:23

"But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts. . . ." 1 Pet. 3:15

". . . purify your hearts, you doubled minded. . . ." Js. 4:8

--God

------------------

Edit+: Kindly also see "my" Post #18 on the thread by another, "Destroying Idols; Taking Down High Places," last posted on at 3:48PM on Sept. 30--this channel.--at the time of this post, of course, and so it may have since moved up. --jim
 
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Simon_Templar

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Ah... the continuing muddle of phrase wars...

"You need to seek to be continuously sanctified!"

" NO!! you already have been sanctified.. you must now only grow in grace!"

I don't know though... growing sounds like it might be strenuous in some way... and that kinda sounds like work... so instead of growing in grace.. maybe we should float lazily down the river of godliness, letting ourselves be pulled along by the current of he Holy Spirit, that way we can catch a nap along the way.
 
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enoch son

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Simon_Templar said:
Ah... the continuing muddle of phrase wars...

"You need to seek to be continuously sanctified!"

" NO!! you already have been sanctified.. you must now only grow in grace!"

I don't know though... growing sounds like it might be strenuous in some way... and that kinda sounds like work... so instead of growing in grace.. maybe we should float lazily down the river of godliness, letting ourselves be pulled along by the current of he Holy Spirit, that way we can catch a nap along the way.
Simeon; I love your posts. I don't believe it's a matter of growing as it is a matter of death. Christian seem to think they are to walk around with the cross. But that's not it at all. Crosses are made to be hung on. Put the thing in the ground and hang on it. "I have been CRUCIFY with Christ". The flesh is dead. As christian we must stop killing a thing that Jesus did in. Just believe the fact that Jesus did it and is the HOPE OF GLORY. And take in the glory and release it. NO WORK'S JUST GODS FACT. We are a finshed work.
 
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JimB

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The doctrine of entire sanctification (in this life, seems to have originated with John Wesley – in fact, it is called Wesleyan Perfectionism. It is completely works-based. The Apostle said that works-based religion (Christian or otherwise) “frustrates the grace of God”: “I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law 9i.e., works), then Christ is dead in vain” Galatians 2.21.

They say that Wesley, while he believed that a Christian could be fully “sanctified” in this life he was humble enough to admit that he never attained it. His followers, however, were not so humble.

~Jim

 
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NewSong

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Jim M said:
The doctrine of entire sanctification (in this life, seems to have originated with John Wesley – in fact, it is called Wesleyan Perfectionism. It is completely works-based. The Apostle said that works-based religion (Christian or otherwise) “frustrates the grace of God”: “I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law 9i.e., works), then Christ is dead in vain” Galatians 2.21.

They say that Wesley, while he believed that a Christian could be fully “sanctified” in this life he was humble enough to admit that he never attained it. His followers, however, were not so humble.

~Jim


I just found out that Wesley admitted that he never attained it. Just found out by another teacher in my church... I want to find the documentation to it and if you happen to know where I could find it I would appreciate it because my foundational roots was built around the above message of Perfectionalism and entire sanctification. Thanks for the post. :)
 
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JimB

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NewSong said:
I just found out that Wesley admitted that he never attained it. Just found out by another teacher in my church... I want to find the documentation to it and if you happen to know where I could find it I would appreciate it because my foundational roots was built around the above message of Perfectionalism and entire sanctification. Thanks for the post. :)
This may be one of those mythical statements attributed to Wesley, but I have heard it several times through the years. You may find it on a Google search. I found this:

According to John Cobb, Theology professor emeritus at Claremont Theological School (Methodist) in an online article entitle “Wesley the Liberal” wrote: “I believe that (Wesley) taught this doctrine (perfectionism) for two main reasons. First, he found convincing the testimony of some that they had arrived at this state of perfect love. He was disappointed that some of them subsequently fell from this condition, but this did not lead him to deny that they had held it, and that others continued to do so. Of course, he knew that many who sought this condition failed to attain it, including himself. He also knew that not all claims were valid. In short Wesley tried to formulate his teaching to conform to the evidence.

~Jim





 
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NewSong

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Jim M said:
This may be one of those mythical statements attributed to Wesley, but I have heard it several times through the years. You may find it on a Google search. I found this:

According to John Cobb, Theology professor emeritus at Claremont Theological School (Methodist) in an online article entitle “Wesley the Liberal” wrote: “I believe that (Wesley) taught this doctrine (perfectionism) for two main reasons. First, he found convincing the testimony of some that they had arrived at this state of perfect love. He was disappointed that some of them subsequently fell from this condition, but this did not lead him to deny that they had held it, and that others continued to do so. Of course, he knew that many who sought this condition failed to attain it, including himself. He also knew that not all claims were valid. In short Wesley tried to formulate his teaching to conform to the evidence.

~Jim






Thanks Jim, I am going to look and hunt some of this stuff down. I appreciate it.
 
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NewSong

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Jim,

I am finding more documentation about the entire sanctification and John Wesley and different perceptions and one most interestingly enough from the the Wesleyan library.
I have found that John Wesley taught perfectionalism and "entire sanctification" because he believed that it is a condition that we ought all obtain but I am not finding where he makes the statement that is absolutely obtainable here on this earth. He believed it was a state that we all should want and his definitions and everything were more clear than I was raised on and in. I think somewhere over the years someone twisted and turned his words (which was what I was finding before this thread) and I am getting more and more convinced and yet if I am not wrong they said John Wesley got looney or something towards the end?

Wow, I wished I had time to study all this. I am so fascinated and I want to get to the bottom of it and I want to be able to have that "answer for everyone who asks" and be able to have concrete evidence ....

This is quite an undertaking.

Thanks for all the time here on this thread ...
 
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ChristianMuse

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NewSong said:
I have found that John Wesley taught perfectionalism and "entire sanctification" because he believed that it is a condition that we ought all obtain but I am not finding where he makes the statement that is absolutely obtainable here on this earth.

This is nothing new in the bible. It follows the line; "work out your salvation with fear and trembling." It is God who is at work in us to will and to do of his good pleasure. To draw us closer to the mark, Jesus being that mark. Many do not want to accept this interpretation of scripture because then they would have to accept some responsibility for their walk and its outcome. Though the scriptures point this out it is rejected by some. This "entire sanctification", however, is not obtainable on earth; though it is the direction we should be moving toward. It is walking in obedience to the Spirit.

As I posted earlier... that "entire sanctification" comes when we see Jesus face to face at our resurrection. That, my dear, is the final act of a loving God to his beloved chosen. The blood of Jesus was the first act of salvation. Our resurrection as the bride of Christ is the last act of (our) salvation. Then our sanctification will be entire, not lacking in any part.

;) the opinions expressed above are that of the poster and may not necessarily reflect the views of God. :scratch:
 
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NewSong

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Thank you ChristianMuse. Very interesting...


I know there has got to be a closer place than where I am at...but ...it is going to have to be by HIS SPIRIT and GOD is going to have to take me there. I have the hunger and the thirst and anything after that is going to have to be wherever GOD takes me and to what lengths HE takes me.

:)
 
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ChristianMuse

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NewSong said:
Thank you ChristianMuse. Very interesting...


I know there has got to be a closer place than where I am at...but ...it is going to have to be by HIS SPIRIT and GOD is going to have to take me there. I have the hunger and the thirst and anything after that is going to have to be wherever GOD takes me and to what lengths HE takes me.

:)

Take him by the (Spirit-ual) hand and follow... :holy:
 
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