REDEMPTION/ATONEMENT: US vs THEM (the L of TULIP)

[disciple Clint]

Perhaps, although that is really a separate issue.

Here the question is more primal: God is OMNISCIENT, so he has always known who will spend eternity in Heaven and who will not. (True even if salvation was 100% based on human works - which it is not - but God would still know who would and who would not be saved.)

KNOWING THIS, did Jesus shed His blood pointlessly on people who He already knew would never be saved? Many of those people had already lived and died by the time of the incarnation, so they were already in Hell (like the rich man and Lazarus Jesus spoke about). Did Jesus shed blood pointlessly for people that were already damned and He knew would never be saved?

The SECOND POINT is just as important. Did Jesus actually SAVE anyone? If salvation requires both Jesus work and our human effort to believe, then the death and resurrection of God saved nobody. It purchased a CHANCE for everybody (setting aside those who were already in hell from this point in the discussion), but alone, His blood saved no one. This is a BRIDGE half-way across the river of damnation with man required to provide a plank to finish crossing!

That is what is at stake with the Atonement.

[WE believe that the BLOOD really does save all that it was shed for. WE believe that GOD accomplished the whole task that he set out to accomplish ... the bridge goes all the way across the river of damnation to the throne of God. We believe that God failed at nothing and wasted nothing in a pointless gesture.]

The position that you are arguing then is not TULIP.

 

[atpollard]

The position that you are arguing then is not TULIP.

It is LIMITED ATONEMENT … Jesus died for MANY (not all without exception) and His death was 100% EFFECTIVE in securing the salvation of each and every person that Jesus died for. That is what the (L) in TULIP stands for.

THEY would have you believe that Jesus saved nobody, but merely purchased a CHANCE for every person without exception to (they will word it different, but it really comes down to …) exercise their Free Will to save themselves or damn themselves.

 

[BobRyan]

So then let's pay close attention to 1 John 2:2 text...

1 John 2:2 NIV - 2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Here John speaks of the WHOLE world - not just "world" and he specifically singles out the saved "an NOT for OUR sins only" -- which is explicit language ofr INCLUSION rather than EXCLUSION. So with that in mind - notice what the "OUR" group is included in --- the WHOLE world... showing that he means both the saved and the unsaved and a total and full scope for world -- "whole world" in that very context.

I addressed 1 John 2:2,

You addressed it by not quoting it - as I recall.

I like it exactly as it reads - 1 John 2:2 NIV - 2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

 

[BobRyan]

Matt 7 says the many are lost and the few are saved.

So universalism is not the answer.

1 John 2:2 makes Christ the Atoning Sacrifice for the sins of the whole world - this is irrefutable.

"Atoning Sacrifice" is very specific to the Bible concept of "Atonement". It is not about a cashier's check going to my bank account - (which is how some people rework this) rather it is the Bible concept of "Atonement".

In Atonement - God does not "get paid" rather He gets tortured.

It is like saying - "I stole groceries from the store and then instead of me being beaten for my crime - the store owner was beaten" and then offered me the opportunity of allowing his beating to stand in the place of the beating I owed due to my crime.

Let us test if your hermenutic is consistent (do you apply the same rule in all cases, or only when convenient):

In all cases it is wise to read the Bible and accept what it says -- even if you find it "inconvenient". The Jews learned this lesson the hard way at the start of the Christian church -- because a great many of them found scripture to be "inconvenient".

So then let's pay close attention to 1 John 2:2 text that you apparently find so inconvenient

1 John 2:2 NIV - 2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Here John speaks of the WHOLE world - not just "world" and he specifically singles out the saved "an NOT for OUR sins only" -- which is explicit language ofr INCLUSION rather than EXCLUSION. So with that in mind - notice what the "OUR" group is included in --- the WHOLE world... showing that he means both the saved and the unsaved and a total and full scope for world -- "whole world" in that very context.

Details which I think we can assume will get skimmed over as they are truly "inconvenient" for some points of view..

1 John 5:19 [NKJV] We know that we are of God, and the whole world lies under the sway of the wicked one.

A great example where the WE who are "OF GOD" are contrasted rather than INCLUDED in the whole world.

Your attempt to conflate the two cases is more than a little transparent/obvious. Did you fully realize that at the start of your post??

for 1 John 5:19 to use the same sort of INCLUSION language as we see in 1 John 2:2 it would need to say something like "We OURSELVES are corrupt and under the sway of the devil and not only is this true of us but also of the WHOLE WORLD" -- which obviously you do not have in 1 John 5:19.

Your "solution" for 1 John 2:2 is to 'not look at it at all' -- which I think a number of people suspected would happen.

Your suggestion illustrates the maxim that if one holds the details of the Bible at a sufficient distance (in your case not even looking at 1 John 2:2 much less contrasting/comparing the details with some degree of completeness) - then any ol idea can be suggested as if plausible.

So clearly WE (you and I) are not having a conversation

I find your solution ... "creative"

 

[atpollard]

You addressed it by not quoting it - as I recall.

You recall incorrectly …

[Is it at least POSSIBLE that 1 John 2:2 "And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world." says "the whole world" but does not mean "each and every person without exception", but could mean "a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues" Revelation 7:9 ]

 

[eleos1954]

No, but “whosoever believes” IS the elect. The reprobate do not believe.

Romans 8:28-30 [NKJV]

And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.​

​

• Whose purpose?
• Who Foreknew?
• Who predestined?
• Who called?
• Who justified?
• Who glorified?

So WHO is responsible for “whosoever believes”? [HINT: John 6:44]

PS: WORLD means Revelations 7:9-10 [“After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, and crying out with a loud voice, saying, "Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!"] … God so loved them!

He called ... one has to answer the call .... or not.

Everything was predestined to be under the authority of Christ ....and is ... but people have a choice .... God is Love .... true love requires choice .... one can not force another to love them.

John 6:44 - Yes He draws/calls, but not all will respond .... we have choice.

And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God ...

God loves all of mankind .... not just certain ones .... it is HIs will that all would come to repentance .... not all will choose to do that.

God don't force Himself on anyone .... nor does He predestine their choices.

“Choose this day whom you will serve ... but as for me and my family, we will serve the Lord” (Joshua 24:15).

“For God so loved the world (everyone), that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

 

[atpollard]

He called ... one has to answer the call .... or not.

The way Saul ... hater of Christians, refused to answer the call ... like that?
Or the way Moses ... who didn't want to return to Egypt refused to answer the call ... like that?
Or the way Jonah really put his foot down and resolved that NOTHING God did would make HIM go to Nineveh ... like that?

So much for OMNIPOTENT and God in control of everything ... where did I put that Sharpie!

 

[atpollard]

true love requires choice .... one can not force another to love them.

People freely CHOOSE to reject God ... God EMPOWERS people to love Him. If you want to view breaking the chanis of people to their fallen, carnal "natural man" so that they are empowered to love God as "forcing another to love", then that's your problem.

God foreknew those whom he loved [Ephesians 1] so God did something about it [Ephesians 2].

 

[eleos1954]

The way Saul ... hater of Christians, refused to answer the call ... like that?
Or the way Moses ... who didn't want to return to Egypt refused to answer the call ... like that?
Or the way Jonah really put his foot down and resolved that NOTHING God did would make HIM go to Nineveh ... like that?

So much for OMNIPOTENT and God in control of everything ... where did I put that Sharpie!

God works with imperfect people .... we are all imperfect ... so? He has unlimited power but don't exclusively use it ... if He did we would be a bunch of robots. We make choices .... He don't make choices for us ... but He does know what the choices will be.

 

[atpollard]

God loves all of mankind .... not just certain ones ....

[Revelation 19:11-21 NKJV]

11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him [was] called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes [were] like a flame of fire, and on His head [were] many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13 He [was] clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. 15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And He has on [His] robe and on His thigh a name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.​

​

17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, "Come and gather together for the supper of the great God, 18 "that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all [people], free and slave, both small and great."​

​

19 And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army. 20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21 And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.​

​

The "love" of God being poured out upon all men without exception ... (just like in the days of Noah).

[Romans 11:4 NKJV] But what does the divine response say to him? "I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal."

Soli Deo Gloria (Latin for 'God Da Man!' ... OK, that's a very loose translation.)

 

[eleos1954]

People freely CHOOSE to reject God ... God EMPOWERS people to love Him. If you want to view breaking the chanis of people to their fallen, carnal "natural man" so that they are empowered to love God as "forcing another to love", then that's your problem.

God foreknew those whom he loved [Ephesians 1] so God did something about it [Ephesians 2].

Foreknowledge .... knew before what the choices will be .... different than actually making choices for us.

We love Him because He loved us first. God IS love (noun)

 

[eleos1954]

[Revelation 19:11-21 NKJV]

11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him [was] called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes [were] like a flame of fire, and on His head [were] many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13 He [was] clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. 15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And He has on [His] robe and on His thigh a name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.​

​

17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, "Come and gather together for the supper of the great God, 18 "that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all [people], free and slave, both small and great."​

​

19 And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army. 20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21 And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.​

​

The "love" of God being poured out upon all men without exception ... (just like in the days of Noah).

[Romans 11:4 NKJV] But what does the divine response say to him? "I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal."

Soli Deo Gloria (Latin for 'God Da Man!' ... OK, that's a very loose translation.)

so ... you think because God destroys all the wicked .... that He didn't love them? Think again. You think He takes pleasure in it? Yes, final destruction of the wicked is His wrath .... but necessary to end sin and death for eternity.

Ezekiel 33:11
King James Bible
Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

 

[atpollard]

Foreknowledge .... knew before what the choices will be .... different than actually making choices for us.

Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

foreknew = proginōskō = Verb - Aorist Active Indicative - 3rd Person Singular

• Aorist = Is characterized by its emphasis on punctiliar action; that is, the concept of the verb is considered without regard for past, present, or future time.
• Active = Represents the subject as the doer or performer of the action. e.g., in the sentence, "Jesus returned to Capernaum" Jesus performs the action.
• Indicative = Is a simple statement of fact. If an action really occurs or has occurred or will occur, it will be rendered in the indicative mood.
• so "foreknew" is independent of time (past, present future), God JUST foreknew ... GOD does the foreknowing ... this "foreknowing" is a simple statement of fact (God really does foreknow).

God knew more than their choices ... God knew that they would be "conformed to the image of His Son" ... so "whom" and "these" in the following phrases/statements are all "saved" (100% in heaven at the end, unless you believe that there are people conformed to the image of Christ damned in Hell).

Look, therefore at those God foreknew:

• GOD predestined
• GOD called
• GOD justified
• GOD glorified

We call them "the Elect" (which means 'Chosen') ... because, like it says, God chose them and God justified them and God predestined them and God foreknew them.

John 6:44 states: "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day."

• Will "whom/these" from Romans 8:28-30 be "raised up at the last days"? (I say YES).
• THEREFORE, does that not mean that Jesus will do the raising up (like He said) and that He is raising up those that the Father DREW to Him? (I say YES.)
• Does that not mean that the "chosen" (aka "Elect") are DRAWN by the Father to the Son? (I say YES.)

The Calvinist position sure looks like the words in the BIBLE to me.

Now, where does it say the "goats", the "tares" those God stomps in "His wrath", the "vessels for destruction" are "loved, drawn, chosen, called, justified, or saved"? I didn't see it. I see "ALL" and "WHOSOEVER BELIEVES" (they don't believe) and "WORLD" applied to them when those words could equally apply to Revelation 7:9-10 "a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, and crying out with a loud voice, saying, 'Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!' " ... which AGREES with Romans 8 and John 6 rather than contradicting them.

 

[eleos1954]

[Revelation 19:11-21 NKJV]

11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him [was] called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes [were] like a flame of fire, and on His head [were] many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13 He [was] clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. 15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And He has on [His] robe and on His thigh a name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.​

​

17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, "Come and gather together for the supper of the great God, 18 "that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all [people], free and slave, both small and great."​

​

19 And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army. 20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21 And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.​

​

The "love" of God being poured out upon all men without exception ... (just like in the days of Noah).

[Romans 11:4 NKJV] But what does the divine response say to him? "I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal."

Soli Deo Gloria (Latin for 'God Da Man!' ... OK, that's a very loose translation.)

The lost are the ones who did not repent .... they chose to remain in their sin. The wages of sin is death (for eternity) .... not eternal torment

We are all guilty of sin and deserve eternal death .... the wages of sin is death, Jesus paid the penalty for death ... He paid the debt for all and those in Him (accepted Him as Lord and Savior) will not experience the 2nd death (for eternity).

Death has a finality ... the first death is termed a sleep because all will be resurrected one day ..... some to eternal life, others to eternal death.

What is it about death that people don't understand?

1 Corinthians 15


Where, O Death, Is Your Victory?
(Hosea 13:9–14)

50Now I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.

51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must be clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.

54When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come to pass: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”

55“Where, O Death, is your victory?

Where, O Death, is your sting?”i

56The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ!

58Therefore, my beloved brothers, be steadfast and immovable. Always excel in the work of the Lord, because you know that your labor in the Lord is not in vain.

24Then the end will come, when He hands over the kingdom to God the Father after He has destroyed all dominion, authority, and power. 25For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. 26The last enemy to be destroyed is death.

The Bible teaches that repentance is a change of heart and life regarding sin. It is a turning from our sinful ways and towards God. We repent because we have sinned against God and we want to be forgiven. When we repent, we are acknowledging our need for God's forgiveness and grace.

Not all will repent .... and of those who chose not to .... Jesus will not apply His blood unto them .... they were/are unwilling to change. . They will bear the full consequences of their sin ..... which is death for eternity.

In the days of Noah ..... Noah preached for some 120 years for people to turn away from their wicked ways ..... the majority of them did not ...
so God invoked His wrath and swept the majority of them away (destroyed them) .... but He left a remnant .... so it will be on the last day.

Revelation 22

10Then he told me, “Do not seal up the words of prophecy in this book, because the time is near. 11Let the unrighteous continue to be unrighteous, and the vile continue to be vile; let the righteous continue to practice righteousness, and the holy continue to be holy.”

12“Behold, I am coming soon, and My reward is with Me, to give to each one according to what he has done. 13I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.”

14Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life and may enter the city by its gates. 15But outside are the dogs, the sorcerers, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood (non repentant).

Mankind will be in the same condition as in the days of Noah and He will return and is reward is with Him. Judgement has taken place, but this is not the full end. The 2nd resurrection of the condemned is to take place.

"And do not fear those who kill the body, but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell" (Matthew 10:28).

2 Thessalonians

The Man of Lawlessness

1Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to Him, we ask you, brothers, 2not to be easily disconcerted or alarmed by any spirit or message or letter seeming to be from us, alleging that the Day of the Lord has already come. 3Let no one deceive you in any way, for it will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness—the son of destruction—is revealed. 4He will oppose and exalt himself above every so-called god or object of worship. So he will seat himself in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God.

5Do you not remember that I told you these things while I was still with you? 6And you know what is now restraining him, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. 7For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work, but the one who now restrains it will continue until he is taken out of the way. 8And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will slay with the breath of His mouth and annihilate by the majesty of His arrival.

9The coming of the lawless one will be accompanied by the working of Satan, with every kind of power, sign, and false wonder, 10and with every wicked deception directed against those who are perishing, because they refused the love of the truth that would have saved them. 11For this reason God will send them a powerful delusion so that they believe the lie, 12in order that judgment may come upon all who have disbelieved the truth and delighted in wickedness.

 

[atpollard]

We are all guilty of sin and deserve eternal death .... the wages of sin is death, Jesus paid the penalty for death

Eternal death?

All sin and all die … so the wage of sin is death (Wage paid).

John 3:18 … not judged, already judged … isn’t that what the Second Death is all about?
(even the saved still face natural death)

[Technically, my point was that God does not Love everyone without exception … Revelation presents God pouring out his wrath … not love … on some.]

 

[eleos1954]

Eternal death?

All sin and all die … so the wage of sin is death (Wage paid).

John 3:18 … not judged, already judged … isn’t that what the Second Death is all about?
(even the saved still face natural death)

[Technically, my point was that God does not Love everyone without exception … Revelation presents God pouring out his wrath … not love … on some.]

Two deaths .... you don't get that? The first death is a sleep (dormant in the grave) .... until final judgement. Sin causes pain and suffering. Will not God end that pain and suffering for eternity ... even for the wicked? Yes He will .... He don't allow it to continue "somewhere else" .... people make/made choices ... and He will honor those choices .... the wages of sin is death .... the first death (earthly death) is not the full end ..... the second death is. It's not that He didn't love them ...... we often love people .... but don't love what they do ... but that does not mean we don't love them .... sometimes we have to walk away from people .... not because we don't love them .... but because they refuse to change .... and it is their choice to continue in sin .... or not ..... and it is our choice not to be exposed to it. We are called to live in peace.

Romans 12:18

If it is possible (sometimes it's not possible), as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone.

The lost are the ones who refused to change .... no love in them.

1 John 4:7-8​

Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God, and whoever loves has been born of God and knows God. Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love.

Either God is love ..... or He isn't.

Torturing people for eternity is certainly not a display of love (pain and suffering-for eternity) .... eternal death ... non existence for eternity is the mercy (love of God) even for the most diabolical who refused to change. It's not at all that He didn't love them.

 

[Cassian]

Eternal death?

All sin and all die … so the wage of sin is death (Wage paid).

John 3:18 … not judged, already judged … isn’t that what the Second Death is all about?
(even the saved still face natural death)

[Technically, my point was that God does not Love everyone without exception … Revelation presents God pouring out his wrath … not love … on some.]

It seems to me most of your arguments are based on two other letters of Calvinism rather than the L. They being, irresistible grace and preservation of the saints.
In this post you stated that even the saved still face natural death. You are correct. But the real question why does anyone die? For that one needs to go to Gen and the fall of man. The condemnation upon Adam, thus all men, was death, dust to dust, Gen 3:19. Paul establishes this point as well in Rom 5:12. It clearly says the Condemnation came to all men. Paul then gives the solution of overcoming of that death in Rom 5:18.
By one man's offense judgement came to all men, resulting in condemnation (death), even so through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men resulting in life.
This is why we as Christians can speak of the resurrection of the dead in the last day. The just and the unjust.
Paul does not stop there. Christ is often referred to as the Second Adam. That would assume that Christ had a relationship with Adam and the fall.
We learn of that relationship from Paul in I Cor 15: 12-22. It is actually an equation which he summarizes in vs 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.
That precludes that Limited Atonement cannot be scriptural.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Perhaps, although that is really a separate issue.

Here the question is more primal: God is OMNISCIENT, so he has always known who will spend eternity in Heaven and who will not. (True even if salvation was 100% based on human works - which it is not - but God would still know who would and who would not be saved.)

KNOWING THIS, did Jesus shed His blood pointlessly on people who He already knew would never be saved? Many of those people had already lived and died by the time of the incarnation, so they were already in Hell (like the rich man and Lazarus Jesus spoke about). Did Jesus shed blood pointlessly for people that were already damned and He knew would never be saved?

The SECOND POINT is just as important. Did Jesus actually SAVE anyone? If salvation requires both Jesus work and our human effort to believe, then the death and resurrection of God saved nobody. It purchased a CHANCE for everybody (setting aside those who were already in hell from this point in the discussion), but alone, His blood saved no one. This is a BRIDGE half-way across the river of damnation with man required to provide a plank to finish crossing!

That is what is at stake with the Atonement.

[WE believe that the BLOOD really does save all that it was shed for. WE believe that GOD accomplished the whole task that he set out to accomplish ... the bridge goes all the way across the river of damnation to the throne of God. We believe that God failed at nothing and wasted nothing in a pointless gesture.]

This kind of knowledge does not line up with scripture. Look at Genesis.

Gen 6:5-7 Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And the LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. So the LORD said, "I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them."

If the LORD really knew the future as you say He does, then he would say "Oh, they are acting just as I knew they would". This scripture should not be quickly dismissed, for it is vital for the doctrine of salvation. It answers the question, "How can God have a nature that is Love, yet most, or many perish". God requires righteousness from His creation, He has deemed it so. In order to be saved a person must believe that God is and know that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him diligently. Before creation, God laid down "how" man would be saved. But God was shocked at how far man had deviated from His call, and He was sorry He had made them. This should motivate us to live respectfully before God, who judges us by our deeds.


1Pe 1:17 And if you call on the Father, who without partiality judges according to each one's work, conduct yourselves throughout the time of your stay here in fear;

 

[FutureAndAHope]

What is the purpose in Jesus dying in AD 33 for someone that died in 600 BC and is already in Hell (like the rich man that Jesus described)?

The point at which Jesus died is irrelevant. The sacrifices of bulls and goats represented Jesus's death. Christ's sacrifice has always been there.

1Pe 1:20 He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you

But it is for the whole world that Jesus died:

1Jn 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

1Ti 2:4-6 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,

 

[atpollard]

If the LORD really knew the future as you say He does

You are denying the omniscience of God.

Just as a practical matter, any god that is not omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent is not worthy of the title “God” (with a capital G) but is just a little god, like Jupiter or Thor or Gaia the earth mother.

So I really have nothing to say about your god.