Gottservant said:
Do you feel like you're beating your head against a brick wall yet ? I'm 0 for 3 tonight.
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CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.
What's your philosophy for Hell? Hell only?
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Do you feel like you're beating your head against a brick wall yet ? I'm 0 for 3 tonight.
I treat it as an exercise in saying as little as possible. God grants the Wisdom to refrain from spewing my guts (in disgust) before the Witness that will be approved is evident!
The Shock of Hell is not that it's there. It's that nothing you think about Death will help you avoid it.
Thanks for your best, and Jesus with you!
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Eudaimonist
I believe in life before death!
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You'll be happy to know that you are succeeding. You have said virtually nothing.
eudaimonia,
Mark
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Fools conclude speech is petty, but to a Wise man, every occassion is a chance to expound Wisdom.
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Freodin
Devout believer in a theologically different God
A key concept of Hell is "revenge". It is the idea that people / beings who do "wrong" or are "evil" (or disagree with the one who wants this revenge) deserve to be tormented.
"Make them suffer!" is the idea. "They deserve it!" is the thought.
That would need an active involvement of another party: God, in the case of theists.
But this is a view of God that a lot of Christians do not want to accept: the angry God, the Smiter, the one who does torture the damned, the sinners. This view of God clashes with their views of "love" and "forgiveness". God IS love, and love does not hate or kill or torture.
Yet all these evil sinners still deserve to be punished and tormented for their unbelief - their rebellion... their disagreement. So the new idea is that they torment themselves... that they are not "punished", only left to their own devices to suffer without the "goodness" of God.
There is but one thing that this miraculous view that combines a loving, forgiving God and the eternal torment of unbelievers misses: self-induced torment is not eternal. All that it takes is the realization that torment is unnecessary to stop being tormented.
If Hell is just humans without God, it is not different from earth. Without the death that leads to so many problems on earth.
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I found this quite eloquent. I want to think about it.
It must be remarked that you are confusing the idea of Hell with actual Hell though.
I shall reply later.
It must be remarked that you are confusing the idea of Hell with actual Hell though.
I shall reply later.
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So Acts 2:21 should read: "Everyone who calls upon the name of 'Hell' will be saved", is that it?
Tell me about it. I've heard just about every argument in favor of 'hell' out there and for the life of me I don't know how anyone who believes in God as God can at the same time espouse a hell-concept. It boggles the mind. Half the time folks can't answer the questions concerning hell that I bring up on these forums unless I prod them several times.
Amen.
On top of God being Love, the Christians' bible also says that "Love keeps no record of wrongs". So tell me again how this hell thing got into the mix?
As the saying goes, you know people have successfully made God into their own image when He hates all the same people they do.
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Revenge is what Judgment becomes, when it has been burned.
God has not been burned.
Ergo God does not send people to Hell for Revenge. (supporting condition "He still has Judgment")
I think you will find that the fuller context is "Make them suffer [as long as is necessary, that their souls may be saved]", "[They say] they deserve [it [everything (without a name, that they honour, for example)]] [but if they burn in Hell, then eventually they will just have] it [and be in Heaven once again [with ([it] - self control, for example)]]."
Complicated I know, but it is accurate and addresses the wild claims you have made about the unnecessariness of consequence, as gently as I could manage.
The goodness of God is that you can call something what it is, if you don't believe in God or Hell, you can't call Hell Hell.
Therefore when you die, and you get there, there is (Hell).
I think this is why I must have enjoyed your post! The part where you say "all it takes is the realization that torment is unnecessary" is what I would consider your Philosophy of Hell. Which is precisely what I was asking for.
Answering the question is it's own reward.
See and this is why you need a Philosophy of Hell, because you now have something that is close to an observation that would abate your suffering in Hell, were you to go there. Well done! I'm not sure if you want further comment though, so I will just wait.
Do reply!
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So Acts 2:21 should read: "Everyone who calls upon the name of 'Hell' will be saved", is that it?
If Jesus is Hell to you, and you are able to a good work, to that effect, then yes. When you are in Hell, you will be considered to have "believed" something. You can turn that into a philosophy if you so wish (the subject of this thread).
I find this quite impressive (obviously philosophical though, I shall take some time to think about it (while still on Earth))
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"If any one of you gives even a cup of water to a child in the name of a disciple, you shall by no means lose your reward"Eh .... Wait -- what.... ?
If you call Jesus Hell, and you mean it, Jesus will give you Hell.
Makes sense to me. (!)
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Illuminaughty
Drift and Doubt
In my faith tradition we talk about certain advanced Bodhisattvas (enlightening beings) choosing to be reborn in the hells to minister to the people there. The hell realms arise from very impure and passion ridden mindstreams and manifest as an external world. Our world here is Mind only as well. Going to one doesn't imply that one is lost forever.
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Gottservant said:
Well said my friend
and like the wiseman said, "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt".Now if our liberal friends could just grasp this .,.
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Gadarene
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Well said my friend
Now if our liberal friends could just grasp this .,.
Ironic words given that you think these are "liberal" objections
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Wrath is one of Gods many attributes, also justice, mercy, love, compassion, holiness, faithfulness, and so on.
If you have a child, do you not correct him? If you love that child you will. If through out that child's life, you did your best to love him , teach him right from wrong , explained to him that wrong actions have consequences, and followed through with correction when he deliberately CHOSE to disobey, then you did what a good parent does. If in spite of raising him this way, he grew into the kind of young man who decides that you are wrong , he can do whatever he wants, and proceeds to do just that, someday , finds himself in jail, or worse, does that make you a bad parent?
If you have a child, do you not correct him? If you love that child you will. If through out that child's life, you did your best to love him , teach him right from wrong , explained to him that wrong actions have consequences, and followed through with correction when he deliberately CHOSE to disobey, then you did what a good parent does. If in spite of raising him this way, he grew into the kind of young man who decides that you are wrong , he can do whatever he wants, and proceeds to do just that, someday , finds himself in jail, or worse, does that make you a bad parent?
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Now I realize that my last post was an over simplification , but I'm sure you get the idea. There are laws and rules in every area of life. And we usually know this and we know what to expect if we decide to ignore them. Gods laws are no different.
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