What's the point? Evolution...

[Adivi]

This is known as Pascal's Wager, and every freshman philosophy student can tear it to shreds. As an unbeliever since age 14, this is probably at least the hundreth time I've heard this as if it had never been refuted before.

To put it succinctly, there are two main logical problems:

1) You assume there are only two possibilities. This is false. There are a number of other religions which contradict your own, and also offer the same claim of infinite reward and infinite punishment. In fact, I can make up any number of mutually contradictory claims, each of which promises infinite reward for belief and infinite punishment for rejection, and you cannot say that any one of these has zero probability. That makes the wager equation undecidable.

2) The concept of infinite payout is an absurdity. If you offer an infinite payout for belief, then the payout remains infinite even if you make belief conditional on some event with arbitrary (but non-zero) probability. In other words, I could say "I'll believe in God when wild monkeys fly out of my rear", and that position has exactly the same payout as outright belief.

You forgot 3: that God will accept someone into heaven who believes in him not because he truly believes down to the bottom of his heart, but because he figures he might as well.

 

[TheBear]

Also, there are many holes in evolution.

You are absolutely correct. There are many unanswered question in the theory, just like any other theory. Evolution is no exception, and shouldn't be given any special treatment over the rest.

That part is easy. What hasn't happened yet, is the discovery of evidence contradicting the theory. For example, if human fossils are discovered amidst trilobite fossils, that would set many areas of science on their heads. Or, if the edge of the universe is discovered to be 6,000 light years away, that would be huge!

But none of that has happened. And when confronted with this awkward fact, some can't handle it and they cry 'foul'. Not saying you're doing that. Just saying I notice it a lot in the discussions here.

How does a heart or brain sustain itself by itself?

Genes.

 

[flatworm]

Well, I have to go spend some time with my family. I have enjoyed myself and hope you at least contemplate the other "theory". Just cause you close your eyes,

Have a good night.

Just so you know, I haven't closed my eyes. I have asked creationists repeatedly for evidence for their claims. All I have gotten in return are dogmatic assertions, faulty logic and outright lies.

it won't spare you judgement. You will kneel one day. I hope it is in adoration and not in regret. God bless

I am quite comfortable that this is a fairy tale. Good night.

Still no concrete on evolution. Bye

Given that you're starting out with hardly any understanding of biology at all, what exactly were you hoping to see in an hour or so on an internet forum?

One important question: what evidence would it take for you to accept evolution?

 

[flatworm]

You forgot 3: that God will accept someone into heaven who believes in him not because he truly believes down to the bottom of his heart, but because he figures he might as well.

That's a theological argument against Pascal's Wager- some theologies have no problem with it.

 

[Adivi]

That's a theological argument against Pascal's Wager- some theologies have no problem with it.

Ah, true.

 

[MoonLancer]

Creation is only a hypothesis stevendrake. It has no evidence and so it will never be a theory. Those pushing creation into schools don't care about evidence, They are about swaying the minds of the weak and the young.

Its all in the wedge document if you have the balls to read it. plus were was this evidence when creationists present Thier case at the dover trial?

Your fighting a strawman, and its is winning.

 

[Bombila]

Evolution...? Huh, I watch the educational channels constantly. Ever notice how they generally speak as though evolution is "Fact" and it is (in actuality) a theory. In my reading I have little in my library. One I have thoroughly enjoyed has been "The case for faith". Just the incomprehesable numbers of the odds against evolution is just awesome. Just the whole argument "If there is no God, how do you explain..." is (in my opinion) a great tool. I don't need the book for my faith but it makes great points pertaining to likelihoods. You know, my favorite book is the bible but from the science perspective I am so proud and in awe of how great our God truly is. The sheer omniciance and creativity of our God is so, mmm, inspiring. To say the least. Any suggestion for literature along the same lines? I am not a degree holder. Just a musician gone Christian with an interest in learning more about how awesome God really is in his creative side.


God Bless

Since most Christians, even in the somewhat benighted USA, believe that the processes of evolution are the manner in which their God chose to build his living creations, I find it rather odd that you choose to dismiss evolution as if it was some joke, in spite of it being obvious from your posts that you have less knowledge of the facts of evolution than most eleven year old Canadian schoolchildren.

You don't require a degree. You can read and write, therefore it is well within your abilities to do the people (including all those fellow Christians) you are essentially calling fools and/or liars the courtesy of doing at least a basic level of evolutionary biology research on your own. Many, many links have been posted to such resources in this forum alone.

 

[plindboe]

Creation is only a hypothesis stevendrake.

I disagree, it's not even a hypothesis. There's no way to test it or falsify it, and it doesn't make any predictions.

Peter

 

[Nathan Poe]

"turns the advancement of human knowledge into an enemy of your faith"

No, because I know I didn't come from poop throwing monkeys. LOL I was created in the image of God.

God is a poop-throwing monkey -- you'll find out when you die.

Word of advice: When you walk through the gates of heaven... DUCK!

 

[plindboe]

What's the point? Evolution...

What's the point, indeed. What's the point with you ranting against a theory you haven't the faintest clue what is?

You, my friend, is a victim of propaganda and your own religious bias. Perhaps if you acquired some humility you wouldn't consider yourself an expert on things that you don't know anything about.

Peter

 

[Gracchus]

No, because I know I didn't come from poop throwing monkeys.

It looks to me like you are still slinging it.

LOL I was created in the image of God. With all the potential which that intails.

So, God is a lousy speller?

You know more about theory and such. So what?

So, we happen to be discussing the theory. Most of the people here obviously know more about the theory than you do. And you seem to be making a fool of yourself.

I could probably smoke you on guitar.

What does that mean? Can you play "Recuerdas de la Alhambra" from memory?

Hardly makes me any better or worse. Anyway, we got more knowledgeable. Not neccesarily smarter, friend.

It certainly doesn't make you better at spelling. Ignorance is not positively correlated with intelligence. Smarter people tend to have more education.

Also, there are many holes in evolution. On Discovery I happened on a documentary about this. To the effect of no basis for evolution. Like organs going from nonexistance to appearing and fully functional. How does a heart or brain sustain itself by itself? Given that evolution "evolves" and doesn't just appear?

Where did you get the idea that evolution predicts that organs go from non-existent to fully functional? That is creationism, not evolution.

Next, my concern is not for my beliefs. My concern is for your soul.

Consider the lumberyard in your own eye.

Say I am right. What will be your arguement when/if you face God and have to admit to turning yourself and others (hopefully not) away from him? What will you contemplate in an eternity of unimaginable pain?

I will contemplate my repugnance for a god who prefers groveling lick spittles to honest persons.

I will pray for you because I don't want to see that happen. My intentions are humble.

And, if you are so humble, why should your prayer turn aside the justice of the omniscient God?

Wether I like you now or not... I would not want to see you with such a fate. In the way I have love and compassion for you and all others. If I am wrong however... I have done nothing but treated people kindly and left this place better than I when I came.

Unless, of course, by bringing Christianity into contempt you have left the world a worse place.

Just show me a plant growing a set of argans. A moss with some legs.

How about a moss with genitals? How about a tree with xylem and phloem, buds, leaves, roots and flowers?

Where did evolution go. The planet decides that random evolution has hit a quota? Come on. You knew what I meant.

The quota is the carrying capacity of the environment. (Google: Malthus".)

 

[Vene]

This should be mandatory reading before posting here. The strawmen and misunderstandings in this thread make my head hurt. I hate it when creationists ask for something they think is evolution, but would actually invalidate it.

Edit:
Observed speciation (also known as macroevolution)
Non-technical explanation of speciation
Technical explanation of speciation

 

[TheNewAge]

Well, if they are going to start to breath they have to start somewhere... right? Forget plants... pond scum. Whatever.

You obviously don't even have the slightest inkling what you are babbling about in any of the posts you have made so far in this thread.

My recommendation: go do some reasearch so that you at least understand the fundamentals that the Theory of Evolution is based upon, so that you don't come on here wondering foolish things that you could answer for yourself if you choose to get your information from some source other than your pastor on Sundays.

"Pond scum...whatever" indeed....get some edmucation before you go advertising your ignorance for the whole of the internet to see.

We could take the time to evaluate and debate each of the points you make, but I doubt that you are willing to admit error anyways.

In all of your posts, you have misrepresented the facts and tried to shoehorn the realies of the Theory of Evolution into what you think it is about, and then ridiculed your own misinterepresented absurdities. What you have done would be akin to me saying: "Christians are so wrong!!! They believe that the universe was ejected from the anus of a flying pink elephant!! Haha!! Nanny-nanny, poo poo, I won't listen to you-ou!" Any Christian would probably say: "What the devil is he talking about?", which is kinda where your posts left most of us. Nothing you said in your posts was even remotely accurate about evolution which is why I think you need to do more research (no watching Discovery Channel and listening to the 700 Club does not count as research) before trying to tackle this debate again.

 

[djgreene]

"You obviously don't even have the slightest inkling what you are babbling about in any of the posts you have made so far in this thread.

My recommendation: go do some reasearch so that you at least understand the fundamentals that the Theory of Evolution is based upon, so that you don't come on here wondering foolish things that you could answer for yourself if you choose to get your information from some source other than your pastor on Sundays.

"Pond scum...whatever" indeed....get some edmucation before you go advertising your ignorance for the whole of the internet to see.

We could take the time to evaluate and debate each of the points you make, but I doubt that you are willing to admit error anyways.

In all of your posts, you have misrepresented the facts and tried to shoehorn the realies of the Theory of Evolution into what you think it is about, and then ridiculed your own misinterepresented absurdities. What you have done would be akin to me saying: "Christians are so wrong!!! They believe that the universe was ejected from the anus of a flying pink elephant!! Haha!! Nanny-nanny, poo poo, I won't listen to you-ou!" Any Christian would probably say: "What the devil is he talking about?", which is kinda where your posts left most of us. Nothing you said in your posts was even remotely accurate about evolution which is why I think you need to do more research (no watching Discovery Channel and listening to the 700 Club does not count as research) before trying to tackle this debate again."


Ok first of all am I in the right place? This does say CHRISTIAN FORUMS right???? So if you see a place called Christian Forums and not a Chritian Why are you here???? Second of all, because of lack of education or misspelling on something does not give proof on anything. Thats why it says in the bible that we are not perfect. And thats why they call it FAITH.. Jesus died to save all of us from our own sins. Weather you belive in him or not he loves you no matter what you think of him. Someone who gave his life, so that your soul can be saved. My faith is in Jesus, who died for me and you on the cross. You need not judge others, for you will be judged the same. I do not know everything, and probably ever won't, but I do know where my faith is and where I came from, and there is no One in this world you can tell me other wise. Weather Im well educated or can type well, or know how to spell, So people can't come up with better stuff to argue about. I will pray for everyone who doesn't believe. I love you all and hope you one day will learn how to love, because Jesus loves you more than you can imagine. I would start by reading Revelations. So to end I do not need any human to tell me where I came from or how to believe. Aparently you are needing guidence or you wouldn't be here in a CHRISTIAN FORUM!!!!!


God Bless you all

 

[Skaloop]

Aparently you are needing guidence or you wouldn't be here in a CHRISTIAN FORUM!!!!!

Personally, I'm not here to receive guidance, but to give it. To guide the ignorant. Like others are doing for the ill-informed original poster. It just so happens that Christian forums are the best place to find those who are most ignorant of evolution, and therefore the most in need of guidance.

 

[djgreene]

"Personally, I'm not here to receive guidance, but to give it. To guide the ignorant. Like others are doing for the ill-informed original poster. It just so happens that Christian forums are the best place to find those who are most ignorant of evolution, and therefore the most in need of guidance."


"Ignorant"

For they being Ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God

Romans 10:3

 

[Skaloop]

"Personally, I'm not here to receive guidance, but to give it. To guide the ignorant. Like others are doing for the ill-informed original poster. It just so happens that Christian forums are the best place to find those who are most ignorant of evolution, and therefore the most in need of guidance."


"Ignorant"

For they being Ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God

Romans 10:3

Bible quotes are meaningless to me. Using them as your argument is therefore pointless. Seriously, it's about as effective randomly pressing on your keyboard. Especially when it is offered up on its own without any contribution from you personally. Put the old book down and try think for yourself.

Respond to me as you, not a collection of minimally relevant verses. Regardless of what the Bible says about ignorance, it does not remove yours regarding evolution.

 

[stevendrake]

I really won't be waisting much more of my time here. Prayer is a better tool.

Now, when I posted this, I was looking for more reading sources. Not all this. Not your opinionated propaganda. Either side of this argument could be described as such, I believe. If you want to argue more... don't try to sway me (as you stated was your intention) because my faith is strong, so save it. I intended this to be a discussion between Christians. This after all is a Christian Forum. Also, if you were so smart you would have understood that in the first place.

Before you even go back and quote, you may say that mine is opinionated. Whatever helps you sleep at night. The cold hard fact? All I have is my witness to you. It is your choice, after all. You won't effect my eternity but you will most definitely effect your own.

"They are darkened in their understanding and separated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them due to the hardening of their hearts."
Ephesians 3:14

"By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God's command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible."
Hebrews 11:3

"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth"
Genesis 1:1


I hope that you somehow find the Truth. God will love you regardless but you have your own choices to make and your own "fairy tales" to believe or not.

God bless

 

[djgreene]

"Using them as your argument is therefore pointless. Seriously, it's about as effective randomly pressing on your keyboard."

The same to you. Your opinions on evolution is pointless to me, and no I will not put my Bible down, does that scare you??? I have my faith and you have yours, but you keep on reading, cause the more you read these posts the more you will learn about God, So I will keep quoting the bible as long as you are reading them. You have made my day, by expressing my Love for God. Gods word is the only word and as long as you are here, I'll be sharing that with you. God Bless you my friend, and keep it coming, cause I will never run out of things to say, Cause God is the almighty and he has my side. Keep the love going, only through people like you can we Christians make a statement on how powerful God truly is.

Love you and God Bless

 

[Patashu]

I really won't be waisting much more of my time here. Prayer is a better tool.

Be sure to let us know the next time you acquire verifiable scientific knowledge through prayer.

Now, when I posted this, I was looking for more reading sources. Not all this. Not your opinionated propaganda. Either side of this argument could be described as such, I believe.

May I ask what's wrong with talkorigins.org ? (It not agreeing with you doesn't count, you need to be able to show where it's wrong.)

If you want to argue more... don't try to sway me (as you stated was your intention) because my faith is strong, so save it. I intended this to be a discussion between Christians. This after all is a Christian Forum. Also, if you were so smart you would have understood that in the first place.

Non-Christians are free to go in the discussion subboard, as you've probably learned by now. If you want to discuss only with Christians that's what the other who-knows-how-many subboards are for.

Before you even go back and quote, you may say that mine is opinionated. Whatever helps you sleep at night. The cold hard fact? All I have is my witness to you. It is your choice, after all. You won't effect my eternity but you will most definitely effect your own.

'evolution is wrong because you'll go to hell if you believe it' is an argument by consequence and not a valid argument by any stretch of the word.
It's not a 50-50 chance between christianity and not-christianity, by the way. There are an infinite number of possible belief systems, dieties and afterlife concepts, and any one of them could be right (or none at all).

"They are darkened in their understanding and separated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them due to the hardening of their hearts."
Ephesians 3:14

Like the way God hardened Pharaoh's heart so he'd keep the Israelites as slaves so God could ravage Egypt because of something he ultimately caused?

"By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God's command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible."
Hebrews 11:3

And quoting holy scriptures achieves what? Books are not inerrantly valid just because they say there are; the existence of the Harry Potter series does not prove wizards exist in Britain.

"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth"
Genesis 1:1


I hope that you somehow find the Truth. God will love you regardless but you have your own choices to make and your own "fairy tales" to believe or not.

God bless

So, are you here to discuss the scientific issues or to assert your absolute beliefs of correctness and superiority over us lesser creatures?