What's so bad about the Book of Mormon?

[A New Dawn]

I grew up RLDS, though they have changed their name to the community of Christ. I am now more closely affiliated with a restoration group. In 1984 the then named RLDS church voted to accept women into the priesthood and it split the church. Those who left became known as restorationists. I feel the Spirit of God moving among these independent branches in a more powerful way than in the C of C.

As far as a lack of archaeological evidence for the book of Mormon, I find that charge laughable. Anybody who thinks that should look up on YouTube a guy by the name of Wayne May. He has a one and a half hour video that puts that notion to rest. I think he's Mormon, but his work is important and impeccable.

I used to be RLDS and a Restorationist, hence my suggestions to you as far as posting goes. Otherwise people will just assume you are LDS. You might even put a message of that nature in your signature.

 

[EarlyChristianresearcher]

OK problems with the BoM.

"Nephi, name cames from Nephilim."

Response: The Nephilim were said to be giants. Thus, the part of Nephi's name fits him, he being "large in stature," (1 Nephi 2:16), this suggest that Joseph Smith got the ancient use of someone who is large in stature right!

"Lamanites.... descend from Natives from Siberia, not DNA from middle east in them, and I am a 1st hand witness as I has some of this blood."

Response: You obviously haven't read the Book of Mormon, if so, you forgot about the Jaredites. According to Dr. Huge Nibley, they could have went through the Asian routes to the Americas, earlier, before the Lehi colony did. The Book of Mormon allows for other nations to have been led by God to the Americas, "...all those who should be let out of other countries by the hand of the Lord." (2 Nephi 1:5). Thus, it allows for a mixture of different types, from different countries, not just Isrealites only. An Atheist might ask how all the prophesies in the Bible could have been fulfilled about the descendants of Israel being "scattered amongst the nations," if none made it to the Americas. How would you answer the favorite tactics used by Atheists & early anti-Christians about "unfulfilled bible prophecies"? (Jer.48:12; 45:28; Ezek.20:33-42; 31:5-12; 33:7-20; 34:5-31; 36:6-38, c.37; 39:27-29; & Micah 4:1-7; Isa.5:1-7; 16:1-8; 37:30-32; Amos 5:15-20, etc.)

"Nephites. white and beautiful red necks, classic racist idea of 1800's
Lamanites, Dirty and uggly and cursed By God. another racist Idea. typical of colony."

Response: Could you be attempting to justify your own prejudices against others' religious beliefs in the name of alleged racism in the Book of Mormon? One of the many Book of Mormon evidences is in how the earlier LDS people, like Christians, thought that the Book of Mormon's mentions of white & black skins was in references to actual racial skin colors. However, another way to look at these passages is through the studies of ancient ritualistic garments color symbolism. Anciently ritualistic garments were made out of animals skins, or at least some of them. To have your skins-garments spotted until they were blackened, meant that you were racking up sins. Thus, you needed them washed through Christ's atonement, whitened! Historic Christianity is filled with this typology too. These ancient color symbolisms have been passed down to us today, unless you think that Black magic is only done by negros & white magic by white red necks only! Or that a person with a black heart, has a negro's heart in them! Or a dirty cop has mud all over them! Or that Whitesunday is not a tradition about white baptismal robes, but for white people only, while Black Sabbath is not for satanists, but negros going to Christian churches for blacks, . Perhaps too, dirty drug money being laundered is actually washed clean in a washing machine! If you believe that is literal, then Black ops must be covert operations performed by only black people! Think about it, only the ignorant would think such things are literal. So also in the case with the BOM.

"Horses, extinguised in america 2 million years early."

Reponse: Horse remains have been found.

"sheep, wheat, barley (not existent in Native america) but no way the early 1800 americans will know that."

Response: Been found! See also. And.

"No archeological evidence, no metals, wheels , arms, etc, american cultures develop to the bronce age, no steel in them like in the BoM."

Response: Been found!

"Nephy kills in cold blood his uncle while the uncle drunk, will deserve dead penalty this days for killing in cold blood a disabled man."

Response: Suggests you haven't read Book of Mormon, or haven't paid attention to who is who in it. How might you response to an Atheist who would use similar tactics. Moses kills an Egyptian, hides his body in the sand. (Exodus 2:11-12).

"The BoM condems Poligamy, early Mormons practised, the temptation to have diversity of fun sex was stronger than the commandment of Jesus to have one wife."

Response: Should we reject the Psalms said to be written by David for his mistakes? Running around naked, fraging one of his soldiers so he could have sex with his girl. He was also a poligamous like many Old Testament prophets too. Abraham, Jacob, Solomon, David, all poligs scripture writers. Early anti-Christains also charged that the early Christians were sex crazed too! Meeting in secret, taking part in secret orgies in the dark, after a lamp is turned over. That's why they called each other brothers & sisters, alleged some early critics.

"the easy test about the Lamanites is the DNA, and you find no Israelite blood in them. they are proud descendants of the inhabitants of Siberia.
.....More....

Response: Already answered earlier.

Bibliography:

Cyrus H. Gordan, Before Columbus, Links Between The Old World And Ancient America, (New York: Crown Pub., 1971).

Diane E. Wirth, A Challenge to the Critics, Scholarly Evidences of the Book of Mormon, (Bountiful, Utah: Horizon Publishers, 1986).

Paul R. Cheesman, The World of the Book of Mormon, (Bountiful, Utah: Horizon Publishers, 1984).

Evidences for the Book of Mormon, Part 1

Link Page to CTWWWW

 

[ivanc0]

Response: Already answered earlier.

Bibliography:

Cyrus H. Gordan, Before Columbus, Links Between The Old World And Ancient America, (New York: Crown Pub., 1971).

Diane E. Wirth, A Challenge to the Critics, Scholarly Evidences of the Book of Mormon, (Bountiful, Utah: Horizon Publishers, 1986).

Paul R. Cheesman, The World of the Book of Mormon, (Bountiful, Utah: Horizon Publishers, 1984).

Evidences for the Book of Mormon, Part 1

Link Page to CTWWWW

I actually read the BoM about 15 times cover to cover in about 30 years of active attendance to the church, I have been a seminary and institute teacher, served as missionary, and stake and ward callings. and when I give an opinion about the BoM I know well what I am talking about!

 

[Norah63]

And now songsmith you have been introduced to the unorthodox part of the forum.
Arent we all loving and helpful saints?
Hope you find it as interesting as I have.
Iron sharpens iron. Keep the faith!

 

[Songsmith]

And now songsmith you have been introduced to the unorthodox part of the forum.
Arent we all loving and helpful saints?
Hope you find it as interesting as I have.
Iron sharpens iron. Keep the faith!

No prob. I've gone through my season of doubt. I am now unshakable in my faith. Nothing like working out your salvation with fear and trembling.

 

[Sojourner1]

Moving thread to the Christianity & World Religions forum.

 

[Ran77]

Moving thread to the Christianity & World Religions forum.

Under the Outreach heading it lists that this is not an area for debate. Has that changed?


:o

 

[Eutrepismus]

I just don't get it. I can show you point for point that the doctrine of the Book of Mormon is the same as in the Bible. It is very clear that salvation comes throught the work of Jesus Christ. The BoM says there is no other name under heaven by which we must be saved. It also makes it clear that Jesus is God, even that it was through the power of Jesus that all things were created, meaning that Jesus was not a created being. I know the arguments against the BoM, but they all seem to be contrived and/or straw men. ...

The Book of Mormon includes what could pass as sermons of some sort, as well as of fantastic (in other words, fictional) history. As far as doctrines are concerned, I think I agree with you. The Book of Mormon teaches traditional Christianity: Three persons in One God, monogamy, and so on. The problem, then, is not entirely with the Book of Mormon. The problem is with its "interpreters." Mormon people have told me that when the Book of Mormon says "One God" what it "really means" is three Gods, "but one in purpose." In my opinion, if there were three Gods, God would not say there is one God. If there were three Gods who were "one" only in the sense of purpose rather than in the sense of three persons in One Supreme Being, then God would not say "One God" with no indication that the oneness is anything other than oneness of identity.

The Book of Mormon condemns polygamy. The people who claimed to believe the Book of Mormon practiced polygamy. The Book of Mormon says the way to salvation is through repentance and baptism. The people who claim to believe the Book of Mormon explain that the priesthood is also needed (the Book of Mormon does not say this), one must be a member of the true Church (I don't think the Book says this), one must pay tithing (the Book does not say that is necessary for salvation), and be married in the temple (the Book does not say this).

Then the Mormon people confuse the matter even further by saying that there is something called exaltation that is different from salvation. The redefine salvation to mean universal resurrection - everyone will be resurrected. I think they should just say "resurrection." Exaltation, on the other hand, is actual salvation - life with God. Therefore, a person who receives salvation but not exaltation is, more or less, in hell. Sort of like being saved to damnation, I guess.

I don't know what the RLDS believe about the Trinity, salvation versus exaltation, so they might see these things differently. (I do recall they permitted polygamous "couples" who converted to RLDS, to keep their polygamous marriages intact, at least for a time.)

 

[jacknife]

Under the Outreach heading it lists that this is not an area for debate. Has that changed?


:o

Here bro I copied this from this section purpose thing.

In order to maintain peace in the CWR forum, debate and discussion are allowed and defined as civil and respectful conversation which seeks to understand or explain another religion and is further explained below:
​

• 
  [*]The CWR forum is considered an outreach ministry of CF because building relationships based on mutual respect is key to sharing the gospel of Christ.
  [*]Mutual respect means that neither Christians nor non-Christians will mock, degrade or belittle each others religious beliefs, or make posts that are disruptive to the peace and harmony of the forum.
  [*]Violators will risk receiving forum specific bans.
• If you are too upset or emotional to post in a calm and respectful manner, please step away and do something else (like knit!) until you can address the topic at hand without responding with insults and flames.

 

[Aryeh Jay]

Under the Outreach heading it lists that this is not an area for debate. Has that changed?


:o

Looks like a catch 22 for the Unitarians, Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormons. Welcome to the fold of irrelevant religions here on CF.

 

[A New Dawn]

I don't know what the RLDS believe about the Trinity, salvation versus exaltation, so they might see these things differently. (I do recall they permitted polygamous "couples" who converted to RLDS, to keep their polygamous marriages intact, at least for a time.)

The more conservative RLDS believe in the Trinity. They believe in the glories, except they don't believe in them the way the LDS do (well, the lower two glories are essentially the same, but Celestial glory is completely different since RLDS do not believe in the esoteric temple rituals.)

When the RLDS church went into those African countries that allowed polygamy, they did allow the family to remain intact, but they only allowed the #1 wife to be the wife. The rest were kept as sisters until other arrangements could be made for them. The husband was expected to remain monogamous after conversion.

The RLDS church split a few years back into the liberal and the conservative factions. The liberal group changed it's name to Community of Christ and the conservative groups still refer to themselves as RLDS (even though the name is still legally held by the CoC and they do not like the independent groups to use it.) I used to belong to that church, and of the two factions, I believe the conservative group to be Christian, albeit heterodox, and the liberal group to not be Christian. Personally.

 

[Ironhold]

The Book of Mormon condemns polygamy.

I'm going to start with this point right here.

Jacob 2:30
For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things.

There actually is a caveat which allows for plural marriage if God commands it.

It's rare for me to meet a critic of the church who is familiar with this verse. As such, this argument has become a diagnostic for me, helping me to gauge just how far back towards the basics I need to begin when I'm speaking with folks. It also causes me to question other arguments made about what the BoM supposedly does and does not contain.

 

[EarlyChristianresearcher]

I actually read the BoM about 15 times cover to cover in about 30 years of active attendance to the church, I have been a seminary and institute teacher, served as missionary, and stake and ward callings. and when I give an opinion about the BoM I know well what I am talking about!

When you claimed the Nephy (Nephi) killed his "uncle" in "cold blood," you ignored a request to respond to similar biblical cases. Moses killed an Egyptian, the Psalms writer, David fragged a soldier. Atheists will use these & many other cases as "evidence" that there's no god. So the challenge is to answer those issues, which will automatically have to be answers for alleged BOM "problems." Unless, of course a double standard is going to be enforced.

 

[Ironhold]

When you claimed the Nephy (Nephi) killed his "uncle" in "cold blood," you ignored a request to respond to similar biblical cases. Moses killed an Egyptian, the Psalms writer, David fragged a soldier. Atheists will use these & many other cases as "evidence" that there's no god. So the challenge is to answer those issues, which will automatically have to be answers for alleged BOM "problems." Unless, of course a double standard is going to be enforced.

Did he ever prove that Laban was Nephi's uncle?

 

[Songsmith]

Laban was not Nephi's uncle, though he was from the same tribe.

 

[Rajni]

What's so bad about the Book of Mormon? I'm not sure, but
with all the anti-Mormon hype here on CF recently over it,
combined with the fact that I have yet to meet a Mormon
I didn't like, I am now officially curious enough to consider
checking it out; I've put in a request for a copy from our local
library.

-

 

[mmksparbud]

I'm going to start with this point right here.

Jacob 2:30
For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things.

There actually is a caveat which allows for plural marriage if God commands it.

It's rare for me to meet a critic of the church who is familiar with this verse. As such, this argument has become a diagnostic for me, helping me to gauge just how far back towards the basics I need to begin when I'm speaking with folks. It also causes me to question other arguments made about what the BoM supposedly does and does not contain.

Again, who cares what was once allowed?? It was once allowed to marry siblings---then God said no more. It was once allowed to have plural wives---the new testament clearly states---One wife. That's it--polygamy over and done with. Why revive or cling to some ancient cultural tradition that the disciples plainly stated was over with---like circumcision. Circumcision and plural wives are 2 things that are very clearly rejected. And clinging to either one of these is going against God's wishes.

 

[Ironhold]

What's so bad about the Book of Mormon? I'm not sure, but
with all the anti-Mormon hype here on CF recently over it,
combined with the fact that I have yet to meet a Mormon
I didn't like, I am now officially curious enough to consider
checking it out; I've put in a request for a copy from our local
library.

-

You don't even have to wait.

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm?lang=eng

That's an English-language HTML version available for reading via the church website.

 

[Ironhold]

Again, who cares what was once allowed?? It was once allowed to marry siblings---then God said no more. It was once allowed to have plural wives---the new testament clearly states---One wife. That's it--polygamy over and done with. Why revive or cling to some ancient cultural tradition that the disciples plainly stated was over with---like circumcision.

Revelation came to say that it was time for it to come back.

It did.

It served a purpose, but then the US government went bonkers and so it was withdrawn lest we be fed to the lions.

 

[EarlyChristianresearcher]

Did he ever prove that Laban was Nephi's uncle?

No, he just went on about having read the BOM 30 times, been a sem. teacher, blah, blah, blah. But you'd think that if you'd read it 30 times, you'd remember that Laban wasn't an uncle, he was like a captain of 50, interesting enough, another aspect that Joseph Smith got right. How did he know the ancient Jewish military had captains of 50? There are other evidences that could be mentioned too. One of the great ones is about Christ's visit to the Ancient Americas, 3rd Nephi. That visit got legendized in the later Americas, like Christ's world wide trek in historic Christianity got legenized in Santa Claus' frosty Christmas eve flights.