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What's so bad about the Book of Mormon?

mmksparbud

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I've asked this before and no answer---Considering that the bible says we are to test the spirits to see if they are from God, How did JS test this angel to see if this was from God? Did anyone see him having a vision and what did they observe JS do? What did JS say was his physical reactions during these visions?? And somebody please tell me how Eden got to be in Missouri contrary to scripture?
 
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mmksparbud

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In other words---no---that is not a test to check if the spirit is from God---Satan can put something where he says it will be. And the rest of the questions??---where are the documented witnesses to these plates, describing them, since they aren't around to be checked and studied, like the dead sea scrolls---God had no trouble leaving a lot of those behind.
 
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smaneck

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Any non-Mormon academic journals??

That is a valid issue. What they are calling wordprint analysis does make sense in Biblical studies in determining, for instance, which epistles were likely written by Paul. But they go back to the original text. Anyone who tried to do this on the basis of a word usage in a translation would not likely be taken seriously in academia.
 
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Ironhold

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That is a valid issue. What they are calling wordprint analysis does make sense in Biblical studies in determining, for instance, which epistles were likely written by Paul. But they go back to the original text. Anyone who tried to do this on the basis of a word usage in a translation would not likely be taken seriously in academia.

In this situation, however, we're in a chicken / egg conundrum.

Because material that defends the church largely resides in "Mormon" material, certain individuals with mental blocks against the church won't hear it. But neither will they allow it to be published in their own scholarly works... leaving it to reside in "Mormon" material.
 
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smaneck

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In this situation, however, we're in a chicken / egg conundrum.

Because material that defends the church largely resides in "Mormon" material, certain individuals with mental blocks against the church won't hear it. But neither will they allow it to be published in their own scholarly works... leaving it to reside in "Mormon" material.

I understand that problem, but I think such a study could have been published in an academic journal if the author had access to the original text. In this case, however, that is impossible.
 
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mmksparbud

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So, conveniently, nothing can be verified, tested, researched by outside sources ---how is that acceptable?? Even the Shroud of Turin has been kept, safeguarded, tested--His shroud or not, it is there. No gold plates=nothing.
 
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BobRyan

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I just don't get it. I can show you point for point that the doctrine of the Book of Mormon is the same as in the Bible. It is very clear that salvation comes throught the work of Jesus Christ. The BoM says there is no other name under heaven by which we must be saved. It also makes it clear that Jesus is God, even that it was through the power of Jesus that all things were created, meaning that Jesus was not a created being. I know the arguments against the BoM, but they all seem to be contrived and/or straw men. I love the Lord Jesus Christ, and I love the Book of Mormon. I am saved through the atoning work of Jesus Christ on the cross. Everything I believe outside of that are non-salvation issues. Unless you are saying that a wrong belief can negate salvation I don't understand how you can say that a belief in the BoM can negate salvation.

The problem with the Book of Mormon as Mormon's present it - is that they claim it is a "test" of whether or not Joseph Smith is a prophet -- NOT because he claimed to write it -- he actually does not claim that. He claims to have "translated it" and that others are the ones that wrote it -- others are the prophets that received the messages in it.

So then the real problem with the BoM is this made-up idea that everyone can test a translation to see if the translator did a good job -- by NOT looking at what was translated from - just "reading the stories" of the end product.

We don't do that with the actual Bible - and we don't do it with any translated document at all when trying to see if it is a good translation or a totally bogus one.

This is discussed in detail - Jun 1, 2015 #5
 
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smaneck

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The problem with the Book of Mormon as Mormon's present it - is that they claim it is a "test" of whether or not Joseph Smith is a prophet -- NOT because he claimed to write it -- he actually does not claim that. He claims to have "translated it" and that others are the ones that wrote it -- others are the prophets that received the messages in it.

So then the real problem with the BoM is this made-up idea that everyone can test a translation to see if the translator did a good job -- by NOT looking at what was translated from - just "reading the stories" of the end product.

To be honest if I "heard" the Word of God while reading the Book of Mormon I would have seriously considered accepting Joseph Smith's claim to be a prophet. All the other problems you named would have been irrelevant to me.
 
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2404

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I just don't get it. I can show you point for point that the doctrine of the Book of Mormon is the same as in the Bible. It is very clear that salvation comes throught the work of Jesus Christ. The BoM says there is no other name under heaven by which we must be saved. It also makes it clear that Jesus is God, even that it was through the power of Jesus that all things were created, meaning that Jesus was not a created being. I know the arguments against the BoM, but they all seem to be contrived and/or straw men. I love the Lord Jesus Christ, and I love the Book of Mormon. I am saved through the atoning work of Jesus Christ on the cross. Everything I believe outside of that are non-salvation issues. Unless you are saying that a wrong belief can negate salvation I don't understand how you can say that a belief in the BoM can negate salvation.
I expect as far as books go it is probaby as good as any I have known some fine Morman folk. The thing is that the life is not in the letter but in the Giver. Adam and Eve feel with one word off and Im sure we are not getting back without perfection and we cant manage that ourselves.
 
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Songsmith

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I understand that problem, but I think such a study could have been published in an academic journal if the author had access to the original text. In this case, however, that is impossible.


________________________________________________________________________________________________
John Hilton and the Berkeley Group
Methods
A more sophisticated approach was taken by John Hilton and non-LDS colleagues at Berkeley.[6] The "Berkeley Group's" method relied on non-contextual word patterns, rather than just individual words. This more conservative method was designed from the ground up, and required works of at least 5,000 words.

The Berkeley Group first used a variety of control tests with non-disputed authors (e.g. works by Mark Twain, and translated works from German) in an effort to:

  • demonstrate the persistence of wordprints despite an author's effort to write as a different 'character'
  • demonstrate that wordprints were not obliterated by translation (e.g. two different authors rendered by the same translator would still have different wordprints).
The Berkeley Group's methods have since passed peer review, and were used to identify previously unknown writings written by Thomas Hobbes.[7]

The Berkeley Group compared Book of Mormon texts written by Nephi and Alma with themselves, with each other, and with work by Joseph, Oliver, and Solomon Spaulding. Each comparison is assessed based upon the number of "rejections" provided by the model. The greater the number of rejections, the greater the chance that the two texts were not written by the same author. Tests with non-disputed texts showed that two texts by the same author never scored more than 6 rejections; thus, one cannot be certain if scores between 1–6 were written by the same or different authors. Scores of 0 rejections makes it statistically likely the two texts were written by the same author.

However, seven or more rejections indicates that the texts were written by a different author with a high degree of probability:[8]

# of Rejections Certainty of being
different authors

7 99.5%
8 99.9%
9 99.99%
10 99.997%
Results
The results are striking:[9]

Recall that any test over 6 indicates different authorship; 1–6 or less is indeterminate; 0 is same author. Each x represents one test.

(This is a table on the website linked to below so I can't get it to look right here. However, it should serve to show that there are few 'rejections' among the authors compared to themselves and many many rejections among the authors when compared to different authors.)

Total Number of
Tests Performed
0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15
Nephi vs. Nephi 3 ---- ---- x ---- x x ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ----
Alma vs. Alma 3 ---- x x x ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ----
Smith vs. Smith 3 x ---- xx ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ----
Cowdery vs. Cowdery 1 ---- x ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ----
Spaulding vs. Spaulding 1 ---- ---- x ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ----
Nephi vs. Alma 9 ---- ---- x ---- ----xx xx x x x x ---- ---- ---- ---- ----
Smith vs. Nephi 6 ---- --- --- --- x ---- ---- ---- xx --- x x x ---- ---- ----
Smith vs. Alma 6 ---- ---- ---- xx x x ---- xx ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ----
Cowdery vs. Nephi 6 ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- x x --- --- ---- xx ---- x x ----
Cowdery vs. Alma 6 --- --- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- xxxx x x ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ----
Spaulding vs. Nephi 6 ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- x x x ---- x xx
Spaulding vs. Alma 6 ---- ---- ---- --- --- --- xxx ---- xx ---- ---- ---- x ---- ---- -
Furthermore, each "rejection" is statistically independent—this means that the chance of two different authors being the product the same person can be determined by multiplying the chance of each individual failure.[10]

Thus the chance of Nephi and Alma being the same author is found by:

chance of 7 rejections x 8 rejections x 9 rejections x 10 rejections
= 0.005 x 0.001 x 0.0001 x 0.00003
= 0.000000000000015
=1.5 x 10-14
This is a roughly 1 in 15 trillion chance of Nephi and Alma having the same author. Hilton rightly terms this "statistical overkill".

Authors Cumulative chance of being the same author
Nephi and Alma 1.5 x 10^-14
Joseph Smith and Alma 2.5 x 10^-5
Joseph Smith and Nephi less than 2.7 x 10^-20
Oliver Cowdery and Alma 6.25 x 10^-17
Oliver Cowdery and Nephi less than 8.1 x 10^-19
Spaulding and Alma less than 3 x 10^-11
Spaulding and Nephi less than 7.29 x 10^-28


___________________________________________________________________________________________

This is from a longer article at http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon/Wordprint_studies

I find it interesting that the methods for this particular study have since been peer reviewed. Also that the statement that going from one language to another does not negate wordprint evidence. Finally, this study was performed by non-LDS scholars. That should make it worth more to those who complain about Mormon bias.
 
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BobRyan

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To be honest if I "heard" the Word of God while reading the Book of Mormon I would have seriously considered accepting Joseph Smith's claim to be a prophet. All the other problems you named would have been irrelevant to me.

So you would argue that those who translated the book of Isaiah from Hebrew into English are ALSO prophets -- not just Isaiah????

That sort of thinking is pretty foreign to most Christian that I know.
 
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smaneck

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So you would argue that those who translated the book of Isaiah from Hebrew into English are ALSO prophets -- not just Isaiah????

Nope, but Joseph claimed to require divine and supernatural assistance in finding and translating the text. The translators of Isaiah did not.
 
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BobRyan

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Nope, but Joseph claimed to require divine and supernatural assistance in finding and translating the text. The translators of Isaiah did not.

So if the translators of the book of Isaiah "Claimed to need divine guidance" as they translated from Hebrew to English then they TOO are prophets -- simply by "making that claim" and this is how the Bible defines a prophet ? -- a "translator"???

What if the result is "a lousy job of translating" are they still "prophets" in addition to Isaiah - the actual prophet that had the actual message of that book??

This thinking is totally foreign to the entire subject of "translation" and the subject of "Who is the prophet -- the one writing the book or the one translating it".
 
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smaneck

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So if the translators of the book of Isaiah "Claimed to need divine guidance" as they translated from Hebrew to English then they TOO are prophets -- simply by "making that claim" and this is how the Bible defines a prophet ? -- a "translator"???

Only if I know for sure the translator doesn't know a word of Hebrew, neither I nor anyone else had access to this text except for him, and he claimed to have received it miraculously. Plus, he would have to make a claim to Prophethood. I would be judging his revelations as well.
 
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BobRyan

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Only if I know for sure the translator doesn't know a word of Hebrew, neither I nor anyone else had access to this text except for him, and he claimed to have received it miraculously. Plus, he would have to make a claim to Prophethood. I would be judging his revelations as well.

So you would accept the lousy job of translation that he did - as "proof" that he is... a prophet?? not a prophet??

What?

Even though no Bible text says this is what prophets do?? There is no Bible text that ever claims that the gift of prophecy consists of the ability to translate. Not even one text for that. So is this "making stuff up"??
 
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smaneck

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Even though no Bible text says this is what prophets do?? There is no Bible text that ever claims that the gift of prophecy consists of the ability to translate. Not even one text for that. So is this "making stuff up"??

It isn't his ability to translate that would be persuasive. He would have to give me access to a Word of God I didn't otherwise have access to. I've read about a third of the Book of Mormon, I didn't hear the Word of God in it. In any case, I'm not a Christian and the Bible isn't my only source of revelation, or even my main source.

For me there are three standards by which I determine the truth of claim to prophethood.

1. The person of the prophet and his character.
2. The Word which he reveals.
3. The potency of his revelation to bring about spiritual transformation.
 
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BobRyan

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It isn't his ability to translate that would be persuasive. He would have to give me access to a Word of God I didn't otherwise have access to.

In theory that is what Isaiah was doing - giving the Word of God in written form - are all his translators "also prophets"???

Most Christians find that idea - out of bounds. Not at all what the Bible says about Prophets.

I've read about a third of the Book of Mormon, I didn't hear the Word of God in it. In any case, I'm not a Christian and the Bible isn't my only source of revelation, or even my main source.

I think that in fact it was written by an early Baptist - Solomon Spalding as a kind of "American Pilgrim's progress". Smith simply got the manuscript and published it under his own name and title. There is in fact no doctrine of the Mormon church in it. When Mormons come to your home step 1 is to get you messed up on the difference between prophet and translator (Not out of meanness but just because they themselves have not thought that one through) - step two is to get you to read an actual book written by Smith - such as "Pearl of Great Price" or "Doctrines and Covenants" - where you actually will find genuine Mormon unique doctrine.

In any case - many "nice sounding stories" are out there - but the Bible test of a prophet does not even once include the idea of "translating something" and even the Mormons admit that a "lousy translation" blows the whole deal. So then "What is the test of a translation"? Turns out we all know how to test a translation and it has nothing to do with what Mormon's sometimes suggest.
 
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smaneck

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In theory that is what Isaiah was doing - giving the Word of God in written form - are all his translators "also prophets"???

How many times to I have to repeat myself before you "get it"? The only situation which would be analogous to Joseph Smith is if we not only did not have any translations of Isaiah but had no original manuscripts either. If someone were to suddenly appear with a translation of Isaiah saying it had been given him by an angel who had helped him translate it (despite the fact that he knew no Hebrew) I would be inclined to read the book to assess his claims.

I think that in fact it was written by an early Baptist - Solomon Spalding as a kind of "American Pilgrim's progress".

Yeah, I heard that theory but his manuscript doesn't seem much like the Book of Mormon.

Smith simply got the manuscript and published it under his own name and title. There is in fact no doctrine of the Mormon church in it. When Mormons come to your home step 1 is to get you messed up on the difference between prophet and translator (Not out of meanness but just because they themselves have not thought that one through) - step two is to get you to read an actual book written by Smith - such as "Pearl of Great Price" or "Doctrines and Covenants" - where you actually will find genuine Mormon unique doctrine.

Yeah, and ultimately it is going to be those books (all of which I have on disk) which will determine whether I will accept or reject their claims. And that is as it should be. You seem to think that there is something devious in getting me to read their scriptures.

In any case - many "nice sounding stories" are out there - but the Bible test of a prophet does not even once include the idea

There is only one Biblical test that interests me, "By their fruits ye shall know them."
 
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mmksparbud

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With the bible--"translators" go back to the original writings to determine the meaning of the word according to what the then meaning of the word was.
How can anyone test the accuracy of Smith's translations, when no one can go to the original?? Right now, I can claim that a story I wrote I translated from something that I found, in a language unknown by anyone, including myself,and say it was written by the original writers. How can anyone prove I didn't make it all up??

show me the original manuscripts.

For centuries we had the Egyptian hieroglyphics, but nobody could decipher them, there were guesses at what some of the symbols meant. They found those weird looking characters everywhere. They were studied to find a way to translate them, Not until the Rosetta stone was found were they able to then figure it out, and some of the guesses had been correct, but enough of them . Point being there were hieroglyphics of a people that left behind more than one piece of evidence if their existence---there was evidence all over the place. The Mayans and Aztecs left behind more than one piece of evidence of their existence. But even if it was only one piece---that piece could be studied.
The discoverer of an ancient document, with writing never seen before, and the translator of those writings, can't be the same individual without co-oborrating evidence that the translation is, indeed, accurate.
The Hobbit actually was the true story of individuals that actually lived here. The stories were written by many people, but only on only one document. The author of the Hobbitt, was told where to find this document by an angel. The document was written in one language, over thousands of years but no one has ever seen the writings before, and no one knows what the writings mean. However, the angel told the guy what the writings mean---but then the angel took the document and left. The Hobbitt is true and of God.
 
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