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What's so bad about the Book of Mormon?

drstevej

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Someone has been feeding you a load of nonsense...
Mormons in no way want to throw out the Bible;

OK, give me ONE document that supports Joseph Smith changing Romans 8:30 and replacing justification with sanctification. No Mormon has yet done so on this forum.

The JST content substantiates mmksparbud's statement. Also, the rejection of the Song of Solomon demonstrates the "it doesn't feel right to us" cut-n-paste JST desecration of the Bible by Mormonism.
 
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Theway

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OK, give me ONE document that supports Joseph Smith changing Romans 8:30 and replacing justification with sanctification. No Mormon has yet done so on this forum.

The JST content substantiates mmksparbud's statement. Also, the rejection of the Song of Solomon demonstrates the "it doesn't feel right to us" cut-n-paste JST desecration of the Bible by Mormonism.
You know... No one can really know what it is you believe because you have constantly refused to state your beliefs... However, this tactic of throwing in an Atomic Hand Grenade for just about every argument you have with Mormons, always does more harm to your side than ours.
For instance, in the early stages of the modern Bible, books were constantly rejected and accepted for hundreds of years based on the likes and dislikes of men.
The Father of Protestantism, Martin Luther rejected the books of Esther, Jonah, Hebrews, James, Jude and Revelation. Calling the Book of James an "epistle of straw"
John Calvin ignored 2 and 3 John and Revelation... Most likely because he admitted that he didn't understand them
In fact, when creating the Protestant Bible many books of scripture were rejected because you guys didn't believe them to be inspired.

Now I know you will reply with your usual "Nuh-uh" or "You don't know what you are talking about" but that will not erase your hypocritical viewpoint.
 
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BigDaddy4

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Same chapter that the verses are found in.

A guy named Lehi established a colony consisting of his children, their families, and the families of a few other individuals.

One son, Laman, was an absolute jerk who had a habit of making himself useless. Despite this, he wanted all of the glory usually reserved at the time for the firstborn male heir.

Another son, Nephi, worked his fanny off trying to please both God and his father. As such, he was rewarded with the glory instead of Laman.

Laman & Lemuel were furious that a younger sibling was outshining them, and kept causing problems; many chapters in 1 and 2 Nephi involve the problems the pair caused. Rather than learn their lesson each time God smacked them down, the pair responded by getting even more jealous. In time, their families came to share this hatred as well.

By the time of 2 Nephi, the colony had essentially rifted into factions: one faction who followed after Nephi & his example, and another faction who saw Nephi as a usurper and do-gooder. The two factions were constantly fighting with each other, and IIRC acts of violence began to occur as well. If the two factions weren't immediately separated, then the survival of the main colony would be in danger via fratricide.

So you cannot provide the specific verse, just your opinion?
 
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mmksparbud

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Someone has been feeding you a load of nonsense...
Mormons in no way want to throw out the Bible; in fact, even the writers of the Book of Mormon constantly quoted from the books of the Old Testament, and even refrained from writing about the Lord's Second coming because they were told it would be covered by John (New Testament, Revelations).
Mormons study the Bible more than 2 years out of a four year cycle. However, even though it is a little more than half the time, studies have shown that Mormons not only read the Bible more often than the average Christian, but know more about the Bible and its teachings than any other Christian group.



I knew very little about Mormonism when I came here, what I had known I'd forgotten. I was looking for common ground on which I could talk to my stepdaughter. I 've been following what the Mormon's on here have been saying and I was totally floored by these posts. One thing I have noticed, Many times someone will take objection to what has been said and say it is not true and that they do not believe what is being said. I've even been pm'ed with their viewpoint. But I can not understand why they get so very upset because in the long run, they do believe what is being said. Like God was a man before He was God. There was this explanation of what that means, but the bottom line was----God was a man before He was God. So why get upset when it's posted that that is what they believe?? The denials are not denials, they are explanations of why they believe as they do but it all ends up being they do believe what has been posted! So far, I've been greatly disappointed and can see that my stepdaughter and I will have very little common ground to discuss.

I did not mean that the whole Bible is wanted to be thrown out--I said certain parts are being thrown out and REPLACED with what they think it should have said. It doesn't matter how much the bible is read, or even memorized. It is what is understood through the Holy Spirit and lived in love for God and His Son. I knew a man that had whole books memorized, practically the whole bible memorized!! He practiced all the time---you could name a book, a chapter, and a verse, and he would tell you what it said. It was amazing. He was a total drunk, to the point of begging for money at the front of stores as he couldn't keep a job for his drinking. Had more than one child out of wedlock and couldn't help with the finances or the upbringing of any of them. It just can't stay in the brain, it has to hit the heart and change it. When you reject the very nature of God, then you can not know Him, and if you do not know Him, He will not know you.
 
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zelosravioli

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Mormonism caused me to begin my journey and 'research' of all religions. If it had not been for fact that I first trusted Gods word as historically and empirically defendable / that there had to be a God / and that the God of the Hebrews was the most believable of the Gods known, and the God suited to agree with 'what kind of God' Creation declares / What kind of God creation in all its amazing detail, beauty, intellect, function, providence, sensibility (including the questions surrounding creation and God, what kind of God creation would have to have) to have come into existence. Then I may have fallen for something else like Mormonism.

To explain, and since I am new to this forum, I will post part of my testimony, which tells of my joining the LDS church, being baptized LDS, and being a member for 3 years, before ever joining another Church:

'I have always had an interest in ancient civilizations (world history and also American Indian history). And, so I was reading a book on ancient world history while I rode the bus to work each day. This was at the same time that I was going through a rough relationship in my life. I had never read the Bible before, but one day I noticed the bible on my shelf, and thought “I need to know what God thinks of love and marriage”. So I started reading the Bible, and since I was reading the Bible and my ancient history book at the same time, I began to realize that everything in my Bible was actually historical. The Hebrews, Philistines, Phoenicians, Assyrians, Egyptians, Babylonians, Persians, Medes, Italy, Greece, kings, kingdoms, etc. etc. I began checking some of these people and places out with my History books, and not only was the Bible becoming real to me - but what was becoming more real to me was ‘God’...

... around this time my good friend Sam, encouraged me to go to his church, and not knowing one from another, I thought this sounded like a good idea. The missionaries there started to give me lessons on their church, once or twice a week, and were intending to baptize me, and from reading the New Testament, this was something I wanted to do. I 'tried' to listen and believe what the Mormons were teaching, yet although the Latter Day Saints 'say' they follow the Bible, many things they say do 'not' agree with the bible. Even with the first missionary teachings which they gave me, some things sounded really odd. The Mormon Church teaches that 'all' other Christian denominations are wrong, corrupt and that only the Mormon Church had the 'restored' truth.

I hadn’t read the Bible much by then, but I did know there was only 'one' God, certainly not ‘many’, maybe even millions of Gods as Mormons teach. Mormons teach that God was once a man, and that we also can become God just as God became a God (!). The Mormons also teach that American Indians are Jewish in origin, and that Indians can remove the loathsome and dirty darkness of their skin, and be made white and wholesome again 'if' they live godly lives / God lives on a planet named 'Kolob' and lives there with his many wives, one of whom is 'Mary' (of Joseph and Mary, Jesus mother) / Joseph Smith kept his own polygamous affairs a secret while at the same time condemning others for practicing plural marriage / Mormons teach that all 'Mormons' were valiant warriors in a pre-existent heaven and fought a war against Satan and his angels, except for negro’s who sided with Satan and lost, therefore losing their right to hold the 'priesthood' / All humans are the 'literal' offspring of 'father' God and his many wives in a pre-existence place prior to this world. The reason given for why we do not remember our pre-existence is that we all passed through a ‘veil of forgetfulness’, now this was 'really' a stretch for me.

The Mormons claim that this is what the early Christian Church really taught, so this drove me to start researching the early history of the Church of the mid-east and mediterranean. You will find no other church has 'ever' taught these things. No early or ancient Christianity ever mentioned anything even close to these outrageous teachings of Joseph Smith, and none of these ideas come from the Bible, they are all in effect anti-biblical. I really enjoyed the Mormon people though, the missionaries, going to church, the morals and friendliness of the church, I 'really' liked them. I even quit drinking coffee (and I quit alot of other things also) as the church taught. I started reading the book of Mormon a lot. But It quickly became apparent that the book of Mormon was crammed full of verses and passages from the Bible that had been shuffled throughout. Page after page of biblical phrases and words from Peter, James, Paul, Matthew all stirred together in a King James vernacular that sounds even a little too pious even for a nineteenth century Quaker. It’s hard to believe that 'God' would translate ancient Indian writings into already outdated King James English. I started wondering why all the focus was on ‘Joseph Smith’ certainly he was not as important as Jesus, John, Peter, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Moses, Daniel, and Abraham. I even expressed my distraught with this unfair balance only to get blank stares and raised eyebrows. In fact that was the response I got to most of my questions.

Listening to Warriors basketball on KNBR, I came across a radio station KFAX, what I heard was many people actually teaching from and about the bible. Soon, a man that I had heard teaching on the Christian radio station was coming to Calvary church in San Jose, a pastor Chuck Smith, so I went to hear him. I liked that they stuck to the Bible and taught from the bible and not just quoted the bible here and there, as do many churches and cults. And they did not use other books or supplements as Mormons do (The Jehovah Witness' use the ‘Watchtower’, Christian Scientists use Mary Bakers 'Keys to the scriptures’, etc.). I attended an evening bible study at Calvary and found many people who loved God and scripture, as well as another person who had been a Mormon. This person showed me places in Joseph Smiths ‘Civil war prophecy’ that were unfulfilled, and that the turmoil over the southern states and slavery was already published 'before' Joseph wrote the ‘prophecy’.

I read my bible a lot, in fact I went to a second hand bookstore and bought a copy of all the major translations, a concordance, a biblical dictionary, Greek and Hebrew study tools, etc. I knew what the Mormon church was teaching wrong, to begin with Scripture is adamant there is only one God, and He is The LORD. This is arguably the main principle of scripture, and just by logical definition: the God I believe in created the 'whole' universe. If you had 'two' or more gods then there would sure be some friction (as in Greek mythology for instance). And where do they draw boundries, where does ones kingdom start, and another begin? Does one god create with electrons, and another god create with something other, like antimatter? This doesn't make sense in a world where creation and nature are so well organized. The God of scripture fills the 'entire' universe, how could there be 'room' for 'another' god? In fact the God of scripture declares over and over that He is the only God. He warns, even condemns the practice of making up and fashioning other gods. In fact God ridicules and 'challenges' the belief in other gods. Most all of the Old Testament is an admonishment to hold, trust and accept no gods other than Him, because they are all 'false' gods. The principle scriptural warning and identification of a false prophet would be a prophet that spoke of or taught of other gods as true. Which Joe Smith spoke of, Joe taught there were many other gods! (possibly millions). Even if a nice young man in a clean white shirt with a tie tells you there are other gods, and that you may become one, scripture says you shall not follow them. Yet I still went to LDS church on Sundays for two years, since I had made a lot of friends there. The Church was incredibly friendly, happy and well organized. I had even got a job working for a Mormon employer, a roofing company. Some of the other roofers were Mormons too, in fact the owner was the grandson of the son to be leader prophet of the LDS Church Howard W. Hunter.

I was separated from my wife at this time, in fact I think she had already moved to Arizona, so I lived in my shop at the end of the tracks near the roofing company, it was very peaceful at night, so I had plenty of time to read and pray after work, in fact I would stay up to early in the morning reading and praying. I had a big room and tables where I could lay out all my bibles and my concordances, I had a copy machine so I could xerox pages of the bible and highlight verses so I could compare scriptures with scripture.

I was also still very interested in the LDS church, for the following reason; How could such a group of such nice loving people be so led astray as to not see what was so clearly deceiving (Is clearly deceiving a oxymoron?). Most every single doctrine of Mormonism was at odds, if not opposed to what scripture teaches. And just as interesting, Mormonism did not even agree with the BOM! I wondered how was it that such good honest people could not be Christian, not see the differences, and while at the same time I felt like a big sinner? Of course, I soon realized we are all sinners, unable to stop entirely from sinning, and incapable of having a relationship with God 'unless we confess' our inability to be perfect - for Only God is Holy - and we need Him to save us and restore us. I had this question answered in another way when I asked God, that next day I witnessed some Mormons in their 30s stealing something / some other young LDS men speaking about stealing expensive electronics from a warehouse / and some young LDS elders speaking cruel jokes about a girl in our group behind her back. Yep, we are all sinners, and they were no different. I still wondered about the verse where Jesus said; "If they are not against me they are for me? I discovered LDS are not for the Jesus of scripture, they have a drawing of a man who is one of many other gods and had to work to become a god, as they must also work to become like a god themselves. This is the antithesis of scripture.

Because of these questions, and more questions about God and the Bible, I have continued to research and study these questions. I have spent literally thousands of hours over the past 25 years studying these topics.
Apologetics, comparative religious studies, Theology, world history, etc. The topic of God is amazing because it involves everyone I meet, all the people around me, and it involves my closest and dearest relationships. There is not a person I know that does not have some thoughts or need of God, and a need to know Him more. I want to thank Mormonism for sparking my desire to research all religions and find out the 'why and what' of all of them, and to; find out if truth can give evidence of itself'
 
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Theway

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Mormonism caused me to begin my journey and research of all religions. If it had not been for fact that I first trusted Gods word as historically and empirically defendable, that there had to be a God, and that the God of the Hebrews was the most believable and suited to agree with what kind of God Creation itself would have to have, to have come into existence. Then I may have fallen for something else like Mormonism.

To explain, and since I am new to this forum, I will post part of my testimony, which tells of my joining the LDS church, being baptized LDS, and being a member for 3 years, before ever joining another Church:

'I have always had an interest in ancient civilizations (world history and also American Indian history). And, so I was reading a book on ancient world history while I rode the bus to work each day. This was at the same time that I was going through a rough relationship in my life. I had never read the Bible before, but one day I noticed the bible on my shelf, and thought “I need to know what God thinks of love and marriage”. So I started reading the Bible, and since I was reading the Bible and my ancient history book at the same time, I began to realize that everything in my Bible was actually historical. The Hebrews, Philistines, Phoenicians, Assyrians, Egyptians, Babylonians, Persians, Medes, Italy, Greece, kings, kingdoms, etc. etc.I began checking some of these people and places out with my History books, not only was the Bible becoming real to me - but what was becoming more real to me was ‘God’...

... around this time my good friend Sam, encouraged me to go to his church, and not knowing one from another, I thought this sounded like a good idea. The missionaries there started to give me lessons on their church, once or twice a week, and were intending to baptize me, and from reading the New Testament, this was something I wanted to do. I 'tried' to listen and believe what the Mormons were teaching, yet although the Latter Day Saints 'say' they follow the Bible, many things they say do 'not' agree with the bible. Even with the first missionary teachings which they gave me, some things sounded really odd. The Mormon Church teaches that 'all' other Christian denominations are wrong, corrupt and that only the Mormon Church had the 'restored' truth. I hadn’t read the Bible much by then, but I did know there was only 'one' God, certainly not ‘many’, maybe even millions of Gods as Mormons teach. Mormons teach that God was once a man, and that we also can become God just as God became a God (!). The Mormons also teach that American Indians are Jewish in origin, and that Indians can remove the loathsome and dirty darkness of their skin, and be made white and wholesome again 'if' they live godly lives. God lives on a planet named 'Kolob' and lives there with his many wives, one of whom is 'Mary' (of Joseph and Mary, Jesus mother). Joseph Smith kept his own polygamous affairs a secret while at the same time condemning others for practicing plural marriage. Mormons teach that all 'Mormons' were valiant warriors in a pre-existent heaven and fought a war against Satan and his angels, except for negro’s who sided with Satan and lost, therefore losing their right to hold the 'priesthood'. All humans are the 'literal' offspring of 'father' God and his many wives in a pre-existence place prior to this world. The reason given for why we do not remember our pre-existence is that we all passed through a ‘veil of forgetfulness’, now this was 'really' a stretch for me. The Mormons claim that this is what the early Christian Church really taught, so this drove me to start researching the early history of the Church of the mid-east and mediterranean. You will find no other church has 'ever' taught these things. No early or ancient Christianity ever mentioned anything even close to these outrageous teachings of Joseph Smith, and none of these ideas come from the Bible, they are all in effect anti-biblical. I really enjoyed the Mormon people, the missionaries, going to church, the morals and friendliness of the church, I 'really' liked them. I even quit drinking coffee (and I quit a lot of things also) as the church taught, I started reading the book of Mormon a lot. But It quickly became apparent that the book of Mormon was crammed full of verses and passages from the Bible that had been shuffled throughout. Page after page of biblical phrases and words from Peter, James, Paul, Matthew all stirred together in a King James vernacular that sounds even a little too pious even for a nineteenth century Quaker. It’s hard to believe that 'God' would translate ancient Indian writings into already outdated King James English. I started wondering why all the focus was on ‘Joseph Smith’ certainly he was not as important as Jesus, John, Peter, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Moses, Daniel, and Abraham. I even expressed my distraught with this unfair balance only to get blank stares and raised eyebrows, in fact that was the response I got to most of my questions. Listening to Warriors basketball on KNBR, I came across a radio station KFAX, what I heard was many people actually teaching from and about the bible. Soon, a man that I had heard teaching on the Christian radio station was coming to Calvary church in San Jose, a pastor Chuck Smith, so I went to hear him. I liked that they stuck to the Bible and taught from the bible and not just quoted the bible here and there, as do many churches and cults. And they did not use other books or supplements as Mormons do (The Jehovah Witness' use the ‘Watchtower’, Christian Scientists use Mary Bakers 'Keys to the scriptures’, etc.). I attended an evening bible study at Calvary and found many people who loved God and scripture, as well as another person who had been a Mormon. This person showed me places in Joseph Smiths ‘Civil war prophecy’ that were unfulfilled, and that the turmoil over the southern states and slavery was already published before Joseph wrote the ‘prophecy’.
I read my bible a lot, in fact I went to a second hand bookstore and bought a copy of all the major translations, a concordance a biblical dictionary, Greek and Hebrew study tools. I knew what the Mormon church was teaching wrong, there is only one God, just by definition the God I believe in created the whole universe, if you had 'two' gods then there would sure be some friction, where do they draw boundries, where does ones kingdom start and another begin? Does one god create with electrons and another god create with something other, like antimatter? This doesn't 'make sense in a world there creation and nature are so well organized. The God of scripture fills the entire universe, how could there be room for an other god? In fact the God of scripture declares over and over that He is the only God. He warns, even condemns the practice of making up and fashioning other gods. He ridicules and challenges the belief in other gods. Most all of the Old Testament is an admonishment to hold trust and accept no gods other than Him, because they are all false gods. Even if a nice young man in a clean white shirt with a tie tells you there are other gods and you may become one, you shall not follow them. I still went to LDS church on Sundays, I had made a lot of friends there, the Church was incredibly friendly, happy and well organized. I had even got a job working for a Mormon employer, a roofing company. Some of the other roofers were Mormons too, in fact the owner was the grandson of the son to be leader prophet of the LDS Church Howard W. Hunter.
I was separated from my wife at this time, in fact I think she had already moved to Arizona, so I lived in my shop at the end of the tracks near the roofing company, it was very peaceful at night, so I had plenty of time to read and pray after work, in fact I would stay up to early in the morning reading and praying. I had a big room and tables where I could lay out all my bibles and my concordances, I had a copy machine so I could xerox pages of the bible and highlight verses so I could compare scriptures with scripture.

I also was very interested in the LDS church, for this reason; How could such a group of such nice loving people be so led astray as to not see what was so clearly deceiving (Is clearly deceiving a oxymoron?). I wondered how was it that such good honest people could not be christian, and while at the same time I felt like a big sinner?
I wondered about the verse where Jesus said; "If they are not against me they are for me?

Because of these questions, and more questions about God and the Bible, I have continued to research and study these questions. I have spent literally thousands of hours over the past 20 years studying these topics. The topic is amazing because it involves everyone I meet, all the people around me, and it involves my closest and dearest relationships. There is not a person I know that does not have some thoughts or need of God, and a need to know Him more. I want to thank Mormonism for sparking my desire to research all religions and find out the 'why and what' of all of them, and to; find out if truth can give evidence of itself'
Wow... Where to start?
I was going to respond but it will take too long to correct all your errors.
So I will simply say that almost everything you said about the Mormon Church is incorrect... Not only that, but the few things you stated that you got from your Bible studies are wrong as well.
But that's what happens when you get your information from Anti-Mormons.
And be careful with Chuck Smith, his Evalgelical bias makes him misapply and misinterpret many verses of the Bible. Although ironically, I have used quotes from him which support LDS doctrine over Faith Alone beliefs. So much so, that it made one Anti-Mormon take down a link to Chuck's website as a reference of what a Christian should believe.
 
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TasteForTruth

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I knew very little about Mormonism when I came here, what I had known I'd forgotten. I was looking for common ground on which I could talk to my stepdaughter. I 've been following what the Mormon's on here have been saying and I was totally floored by these posts. One thing I have noticed, Many times someone will take objection to what has been said and say it is not true and that they do not believe what is being said. I've even been pm'ed with their viewpoint. But I can not understand why they get so very upset because in the long run, they do believe what is being said. Like God was a man before He was God. There was this explanation of what that means, but the bottom line was----God was a man before He was God. So why get upset when it's posted that that is what they believe?? The denials are not denials, they are explanations of why they believe as they do but it all ends up being they do believe what has been posted! So far, I've been greatly disappointed and can see that my stepdaughter and I will have very little common ground to discuss.
The challenge is that LDS are interested in the big picture as well as the pixel, and likely the former more so than the latter. To my knowledge, I haven't ever sent you a PM, so you can't be referring to me above, but I frequently do object to comments or claims about the LDS religion that, on the surface, appear to be "what LDS believe," or "what LDS teach." It is the isolation or divorcement of a single idea from the composite that usually brings the objection. In the interest of truth and fairness, we want people to understand not just "what we teach," but what it means. And that usually, if not always, requires a broader context which, in very many cases, non-Mormons do not include when they speak about us (and some, as a matter of absolute fact, avoid the broader context—they don't want you to see our religion for what it is, but for what they want you to see it as).

There are other contributing factors, as well, but this is what is most likely relevant to your comment, so that's all I'll offer at this point.
 
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TheBarrd

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Are you RLDS, Songsmith? If you are RLDS, you will have a very tough time posting here as both the LDS and the mainstream Christians will be against you. And you will need to say, at the beginning of each post, "I am not LDS".

What is RLDS?
 
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smaneck

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I began to realize that everything in my Bible was actually historical. The Hebrews, Philistines, Phoenicians, Assyrians, Egyptians, Babylonians, Persians, Medes, Italy, Greece, kings, kingdoms, etc. etc. I began checking some of these people and places out with my History books, and not only was the Bible becoming real to me - but what was becoming more real to me was ‘God’...

Sometimes the Bible gets these historical things right, and sometimes it doesn't. Obviously they could talk about these people because the Hebrews lived in the same area. A lot of their accounts were written centuries later and they do make mistakes. For instance, they will talk about the Philistines being in a certain area where we know the Phoenicians lived during the time they are talking about, but at the time they wrote the text the Philistines were their enemies so they anachronistically projected them back there.

The Mormon Church teaches that 'all' other Christian denominations are wrong, corrupt and that only the Mormon Church had the 'restored' truth.

Sounds like a lot of Christians I know.

The Mormons claim that this is what the early Christian Church really taught, so this drove me to start researching the early history of the Church of the mid-east and mediterranean. You will find no other church has 'ever' taught these things.

Their particular scenario, no. Planets at the time were not thought to be things people could stand on. On the other hand the Bible does speak of people coming up and down from heaven which in relationship to modern science doesn't exactly make a lot of sense. Also, there were a lot more Christians than the Mormons who believed black people descended from either Cain or Ham.

But It quickly became apparent that the book of Mormon was crammed full of verses and passages from the Bible that had been shuffled throughout. Page after page of biblical phrases and words from Peter, James, Paul, Matthew all stirred together in a King James vernacular that sounds even a little too pious even for a nineteenth century Quaker.

Let's deal with the biblical phrases found in the BoM first and leave the question of translation choices aside for the moment. If the purpose of the BoM was to give them the same gospel message as was given to be people in the Near East, doesn't it make sense some of the same words and phrases might be used. Especially if we are assuming that both books are inspired.

It’s hard to believe that 'God' would translate ancient Indian writings into already outdated King James English.

I thought it was Joseph Smith who was supposed to do the translating. But I don't find it strange that it would be done in King James English at all. Shoghi Effendi who translated so many of our own scriptures during the first half of the 20th century used the King James style of English as well. The reason was simple. That was considered the more dignified and formal use of English, especially when it came to scripture.

I started wondering why all the focus was on ‘Joseph Smith’ certainly he was not as important as Jesus, John, Peter, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Moses, Daniel, and Abraham.

Because he was now and they were then?

As a member of a religion that is even younger than Mormonism, none of this seems that strange to me. Of course, Mormons still claim to be Christians while we insist we are an independent world religion.

This person showed me places in Joseph Smiths ‘Civil war prophecy’ that were unfulfilled, and that the turmoil over the southern states and slavery was already published 'before' Joseph wrote the ‘prophecy’.

Not sure what you mean by that last phrase, but as far as prophecy goes, there are prophecies in Isaiah that unfulfilled. I still regard it as scripture anyhow.

I knew what the Mormon church was teaching wrong, to begin with Scripture is adamant there is only one God, and He is The LORD.

Not at first. At first the Hebrew people are only told to worship only one God, but it is not until we reach towards the end of the Tanakh that Deutero-Isaiah insists He is the only God there is. Before that, we hear of God holding council with the gods, etc. It strikes me that in some ways the Mormons are a throw back to the earliest Hebrew religion which saw God in very anthropomorphic terms such that He could walk in the garden with Adam, etc.

If you had 'two' or more gods then there would sure be some friction

I believe the premise of Mormonism is that there is only one God we really have anything to do with.

In fact the God of scripture declares over and over that He is the only God. He warns, even condemns the practice of making up and fashioning other gods. In fact God ridicules and 'challenges' the belief in other gods.

Not until we get to Deutero-Isaiah. Before that the Hebrew people are mostly told to worship only Yahweh because He is the one who brought them out of Egypt. But the existence of other gods is not questioned at first. Deutero-Isaiah, however, mocks the worshiping of wood and stone.
 
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TasteForTruth

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Are you RLDS, Songsmith? If you are RLDS, you will have a very tough time posting here as both the LDS and the mainstream Christians will be against you. And you will need to say, at the beginning of each post, "I am not LDS".
I'm not against anyone here, so I object to your generalization.
 
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LoAmmi

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Just a bit I just want to support with the old testament.
See the story of Noa, getting drunk and his son cam seeing him naked, Noa cursed him and said his descence will serve the decendence of their brothers, now..... who are the descendent of cam,,, the Canaanite!

What what the condition of the Israelites to let the invaded tribes a live? .... they should serve the Israelites..

We do not believe that gentiles were created to serve us. That is a vicious, horrible lie that has been spread by our enemies for a long time. I will say there have been a few Jews who have believed that, but it is far, far from the majority opinion and, in fact, that majority opinion is that the Jews are not superior to Gentiles in any way. We merely were the ones who accepted HaShem's offer to keep the Torah.
 
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skylark1

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Are you RLDS, Songsmith? If you are RLDS, you will have a very tough time posting here as both the LDS and the mainstream Christians will be against you. And you will need to say, at the beginning of each post, "I am not LDS".

I'm not against anyone here, so I object to your generalization.

I missed seeing this earlier. I'm with you TasteforTruth, I'm not against anyone here.

Maybe saying some LDS and Christians would be against your doctrines would be more accurate?
 
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Theway

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We do not believe that gentiles were created to serve us. That is a vicious, horrible lie that has been spread by our enemies for a long time. I will say there have been a few Jews who have believed that, but it is far, far from the majority opinion and, in fact, that majority opinion is that the Jews are not superior to Gentiles in any way. We merely were the ones who accepted HaShem's offer to keep the Torah.
I see.... So you really are not God's chosen people; you are merely some people who choose God?
 
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Ironhold

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I think we have had this discussion before, oh yeah here are the verses:


Ironhold you have confused: ‘How people treated Indians and Negros’ with ‘The BOM, LDS doctrines and their belief that the color of their skin and race was a curse (because of unbelief, and or sins).

Hardly.

Whether or not people are kind, nice, or include Indians and Negros in their community’s or churches is a completely different thing than saying: your skin is a result of a curse put upon you for some reason. (If you said people who wear glasses are stupid, and that glasses are a curse of unbelief, you cannot get out of it by saying we have always invited bispeckled people into our churches.

You might want to go pay a visit to apologetics website blacklds.org and cruise around.

You see, when Joseph Smith was alive, the church was one of the most racially-progressive organizations in America. Blacks and Native Americans were courted freely, with Mormon congregations being completely integrated (something that some non-Mormon congregations today cannot boast). In fact, at least one African-American man was ordained to the priesthood (thereby giving him religious authority over whites) and there is a debate as to whether or not others were ordained while Joseph was alive.

In fact, whether people want to admit it or not, the church's racial integration had a role to play in the Missouri Conflict: the church was an ever-growing body of abolitionists located within a "slave" state, and locals feared that if the church got a majority within the state then slavery would be one of the first things to go.

The prohibition took place under Brigham Young, and I've seen contradictory sources attempt to explain why.

(Mormon Doctrine, p.527, 1966 ed.)

This work never had official sanction, contrary to what various critics of the church want people to believe.

It was McConkie's personal project, and as such the early editions were found to have McConkie's own personal views in places rather than actual church theology.

(Joseph Fielding Smith, The Way to Perfection, p.101)

Does the book bear a copyright from the Church itself? Does it bear a copyright from Intellectual Reserve?

If the answer to both is "no", then odds are this was JFS speaking as an everyday individual and not as a church official.

You see, works that have one of those two copyrights are officially-sanctioned church items. Those that don't have no backing because they were released outside of the church. As such, while they may have historical value and/or give insight into the specific person, they don't represent official doctrine.

Same thing for everything else you've cited.
 
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