What's going on here??

[truefiction1]

This certainly speaks to the complexity of the interplay amongst the meaningful elements that make up the Patriarch's state of consciousness.

 

[RKO]

I re-read the article and it said nothing, absolutely nothing about what level of participation will the patriarch have in this Muslim event.

My understanding of the event is that neither the Pope nor the EP are going to participate in Islamic prayer. Each will be praying according to his own church, and will be present while the others offer their own prayers. This doesn't seem like a huge deal to me.

 

[katherine2001]

Greg, why would an Orthodox patriarch even attend a Muslim event? I know that most priests aren't crazy about us going to non-Orthodox events, whether we participate or not. I can imagine what they would say about attending services (even if a prayers event) with non-Christians. By the way, this one was organized by the Pope. Why didn't he just nicely turn down the invitation? I can't imagine any of our other patriarchs attending something like this.

 

[jckstraw72]

Greg, why would an Orthodox patriarch even attend a Muslim event? I know that most priests aren't crazy about us going to non-Orthodox events, whether we participate or not. I can imagine what they would say about attending services (even if a prayers event) with non-Christians. By the way, this one was organized by the Pope. Why didn't he just nicely turn down the invitation? I can't imagine any of our other patriarchs attending something like this.

my spiritual father would give me a good slappin' if i were to attend such an event. this whole thing is such a load of stinkin' BS.

 

[Nik0s]

I want to celebrate a DL i n Mecca, let's see how that goes.

 

[GregConstantine]

I don't know why he would attend. You'll have to ask him. But its not a "Muslim" event, its an event at which a Muslim religious ritual is taking place, of which the report linked by the OP gave no indications at all that the Patriarch is participating in the Muslim prayers!

That sure didn't stop you guys from speculating and gossiping.

 

[Dorothea]

Pope Francis has admirably kept awareness of persecuted Christians, often focusing on the Orthodox, & helped facilitate humanitarian efforts in many places like Syria. His statements re humanity seem to truly reflect the 2 great commands & the golden rule. Regrettably, he seems to then proceed to worldly wisdom with a seeming obsession to "dialogue" with unbelievers. Within a Gospel framework it seems evident that a Christian does not assume his/her own salvation & to have hope for the salvation of the non Christian. Why is there a need to "dialogue" about unbelief? Doesn't this just cause confusion for Christians? I mean, for ex., how could I ever individually claim a Beatitude like "blessed are the merciful" but yet, not realize there are Christians & non Christians who are those who are merciful in the eyes of the Lord? On the other hand, what particulars of unbelief am I to "discuss" & perhaps legitimize? Now we are to witness & admire religious forms of unbelief? Where does this end? Why does the EP go along with this?

,

Good questions. I ask the same thing. Why?

 

[Dorothea]

It looks like we have 100% consensus that this is messed up, and the EP is going to find zero support for his actions at home.

What would a Holy Synod in that Patriarchate say?

I would like to know what other Orthodox Patriarchs have to say about this meeting.

 

[rusmeister]

do we know for sure that the Patriarch is going to actually participate in the Muslim prayers, or that he has just been invited and he is going to be present at this event?

In my work with OCF, I've been invited to events that the Muslim students hosted at which they conducted their prayers, at which I was present, but I most certainly did not participate.

Let's not jump the gun here and start making judgments about the Patriarch.

You know, a huge part of this that I see is VERY well-informed Church leaders, at best, practically deliberately leading their flocks into temptation of confusion. The Pope KNOWS that the Catholic Church does not teach the judging the standing of of people before God, and that the entire problem of the modern world is that they no longer understand that sodomy actually is a sin, brokenness with God like all other sin. And yet he says something nearly flat-out ignorant ("Who am I to judge...?") WITHOUT a vital context to clearly communicate the Catholic teaching to Catholics and non-Catholics alike, which they clearly don't understand. It is just short of actual deception.

If The EP is going to even ATTEND an event that, by its nature, denies Orthodox teaching as the only true one, then he ought to be saying loud and clear that he is NOT doing exactly what we suspect him of doing. He ought to KNOW that most people will naturally see this event as an ecumenical event, and to all appearances, that's how he WANTS it to appear. So if he is truly innocent of ecumenism, he ought to stress what exactly he is and is not doing at such a powder-keg event.

I'm ready to suspend judgement of actions... to a point. But if no justifiable clarification is forthcoming, then we ARE justified in judging actions.

And like GKC said at the beginning of his great book "Eugenics and Other Evils":
"The wisest thing in the world is to cry out before you are hurt. It is no good to cry out after you are hurt; especially after you are mortally hurt. People talk about the impatience of the populace; but sound historians know that most tyrannies have been possible because men moved too late. It is often essential to resist a tyranny before it exists. It is no answer to say, with a distant optimism, that the scheme is only in the air. A blow from a hatchet can only be parried while it is in the air."

And here, "tyranny" can be replaced with "heresy".

 

[Dorothea]

do we know for sure that the Patriarch is going to actually participate in the Muslim prayers, or that he has just been invited and he is going to be present at this event?

In my work with OCF, I've been invited to events that the Muslim students hosted at which they conducted their prayers, at which I was present, but I most certainly did not participate.

Let's not jump the gun here and start making judgments about the Patriarch.

I get what you're saying, and I did not say the Patriarch was reciting Muslim prayers, just that he was present at the meeting where they all prayed their particular belief prayers. I think there should be caution in this because of what door this might open up and what will happen in the next several years from the start of all of what's been going on with the meetings beginning with the Patriarch being present at the Pope's enthronement. Nothing wrong with that. Then, the meeting and joint declaration followed in Jerusalem, then this meeting with leaders of non Christian beliefs. What will be next? This is what I have a concern over.

 

[Dorothea]

Greg, why would an Orthodox patriarch even attend a Muslim event? I know that most priests aren't crazy about us going to non-Orthodox events, whether we participate or not. I can imagine what they would say about attending services (even if a prayers event) with non-Christians. By the way, this one was organized by the Pope. Why didn't he just nicely turn down the invitation? I can't imagine any of our other patriarchs attending something like this.

Yes. There really is no good reason to attend non Christian prayer meetings. It's fine to meet with different faith groups and talk, but I don't see participating in whatever way, especially a Patriarch. What type of message does that send for his flock? That we can do this, too? Isn't he supposed to be an example? I don't know. I mean, in the NT, Christ ate and spoke with people not of Israel, His people, but he did not go to their pagan temples and pray there or pray with them while they prayed to pagan gods.

 

[Dorothea]

I don't know why he would attend. You'll have to ask him. But its not a "Muslim" event, its an event at which a Muslim religious ritual is taking place, of which the report linked by the OP gave no indications at all that the Patriarch is participating in the Muslim prayers!

That sure didn't stop you guys from speculating and gossiping.

Why is he participating in Jewish prayers? It's the same thing. Their god is not the same as ours. It's not gossip, it's concern.

 

[Thekla]

The report doesn't give much detail, so I don't think there's much to comment on. Surely, co-prayers would be unacceptable. Dialogue on peaceful co-existence (which, from what I have heard from Orthodox spiritual family and friends from/in the ME was in some areas the welcome norm)) is quite another thing. Under Islam, the patriarchs were de facto political leaders of the EO minority; whether or not that was a good thing is one matter. Certainly, treatment of Christians in the ME has drastically degraded in recent times; would it be preferable to do nothing ?

So, in sum, do I agree with the EC on this ? I don't have enough information to comment. Is it important for Christian leaders to seek peace ? Not to the point of compromising truth, and the Truth, no. But otherwise, yes. As with the EC's dialogue with the pope, the charges of ecumenism and syncretism seemed to be based on the fear of what might happen. Yet if we did not seek peace (as opposed to compromising the Truth, and truth of course !) and healing in the Christian world, could we even call ourselves Christians ?

 

[Dorothea]

You know, a huge part of this that I see is VERY well-informed Church leaders, at best, practically deliberately leading their flocks into temptation of confusion. The Pope KNOWS that the Catholic Church does not teach the judging the standing of of people before God, and that the entire problem of the modern world is that they no longer understand that sodomy actually is a sin, brokenness with God like all other sin. And yet he says something nearly flat-out ignorant ("Who am I to judge...?") WITHOUT a vital context to clearly communicate the Catholic teaching to Catholics and non-Catholics alike, which they clearly don't understand. It is just short of actual deception.

If The EP is going to even ATTEND an event that, by its nature, denies Orthodox teaching as the only true one, then he ought to be saying loud and clear that he is NOT doing exactly what we suspect him of doing. He ought to KNOW that most people will naturally see this event as an ecumenical event, and to all appearances, that's how he WANTS it to appear. So if he is truly innocent of ecumenism, he ought to stress what exactly he is and is not doing at such a powder-keg event.

I'm ready to suspend judgement of actions... to a point. But if no justifiable clarification is forthcoming, then we ARE justified in judging actions.

And like GKC said at the beginning of his great book "Eugenics and Other Evils":
"The wisest thing in the world is to cry out before you are hurt. It is no good to cry out after you are hurt; especially after you are mortally hurt. People talk about the impatience of the populace; but sound historians know that most tyrannies have been possible because men moved too late. It is often essential to resist a tyranny before it exists. It is no answer to say, with a distant optimism, that the scheme is only in the air. A blow from a hatchet can only be parried while it is in the air."

And here, "tyranny" can be replaced with "heresy".

Thank you.

 

[Dorothea]

The report doesn't give much detail, so I don't think there's much to comment on. Surely, co-prayers would be unacceptable. Dialogue on peaceful co-existence (which, from what I have heard from Orthodox spiritual family and friends from/in the ME was in some areas the welcome norm)) is quite another thing. Under Islam, the patriarchs were de facto political leaders of the EO minority; whether or not that was a good thing is one matter. Certainly, treatment of Christians in the ME has drastically degraded in recent times; would it be preferable to do nothing ?

So, in sum, do I agree with the EC on this ? I don't have enough information to comment. Is it important for Christian leaders to seek peace ? Not to the point of compromising truth, and the Truth, no. But otherwise, yes. As with the EC's dialogue with the pope, the charges of ecumenism and syncretism seemed to be based on the fear of what might happen. Yet if we did not seek peace (as opposed to compromising the Truth, and truth of course !) and healing in the Christian world, could we even call ourselves Christians ?

As I said in one of my post above, I have no problem with the Patriarch meeting with other faith leaders and discussing how to work toward peace in the war torn areas around the world, especially in the Middle East and Syria. Meeting together on this I do consider Christian. Having joint prayers, whether they are said separately are still together. It's not in a church, so that is a plus. The problem is, yes, I worry where this will lead to. If we see this as ok or "no big deal," what happens if and when something comes about that is even more evasive than what we have seen thus far? This interfaith praying can lead to other more involved things, imo. We've already condoned the paths toward it, so we are partly to blame for not questioning it at the beginning.

 

[Thekla]

As I said in one of my post above, I have no problem with the Patriarch meeting with other faith leaders and discussing how to work toward peace in the war torn areas around the world, especially in the Middle East and Syria. Meeting together on this I do consider Christian. Having joint prayers, whether they are said separately are still together. It's not in a church, so that is a plus. The problem is, yes, I worry where this will lead to. If we see this as ok or "no big deal," what happens if and when something comes about that is even more evasive than what we have seen thus far? This interfaith praying can lead to other more involved things, imo. We've already condoned the paths toward it, so we are partly to blame for not questioning it at the beginning.

I'm not clear on how the "joint prayers" are to happen; is there some information on this ? It seems to me that inter-faith prayers means 'praying together' (as opposed to praying separately for the same thing); what happens in this event ?

 

[Dorothea]

I'm not clear on how the "joint prayers" are to happen; is there some information on this ? It seems to me that inter-faith prayers means 'praying together' (as opposed to praying separately for the same thing); what happens in this event ?

From what I've read, each leader prays their prayers out loud standing next to the other leaders (done in the gardens at the Vatican) (there are pictures of them planting an olive tree on one website). Each is praying his own prayers, but in the presence of the others. So, no, the Patriach isn't reciting Jewish or Muslim prayers. He is in the presence of them doing so. Same with the Pope. This is a fine line....a border/tight rope, imo, being walked. Imo, that is praying, in a sense, with non Christians. If the Patriarch moves away from the border/edge after this, then fine. We will have to wait and see.

Here's a link and excerpt to an article on this:

The three leaders, joined by the Orthodox Patriarch of Constantinople, Bartholomew, heard Christian, Jewish and Islamic prayers from cardinals, rabbis and Muslim imams. The two-hour meeting in the Vatican gardens included prayers from the Old and New Testaments and the Quran that were read and chanted in Hebrew, Arabic, English and Italian.


http://www.voanews.com/content/reu-...in-unprecedented-vatican-prayers/1932127.html

 

[Thekla]

From what I've read, each leader prays their prayers out loud standing next to the other leaders (done in the gardens at the Vatican) (there are pictures of them planting an olive tree on one website). Each is praying his own prayers, but in the presence of the others. So, no, the Patriach isn't reciting Jewish or Muslim prayers. He is in the presence of them doing so. Same with the Pope. This is a fine line....a border/tight rope, imo, being walked. Imo, that is praying, in a sense, with non Christians. If the Patriarch moves away from the border/edge after this, then fine. We will have to wait and see.

Here's a link and excerpt to an article on this:

The three leaders, joined by the Orthodox Patriarch of Constantinople, Bartholomew, heard Christian, Jewish and Islamic prayers from cardinals, rabbis and Muslim imams. The two-hour meeting in the Vatican gardens included prayers from the Old and New Testaments and the Quran that were read and chanted in Hebrew, Arabic, English and Italian.


Pope Hosts Israeli, Palestinian Presidents for Prayer Meeting

no prayers in Greek ... interesting.

It is a fine line, though in a sense is what happens in my neighborhood daily - except separated by lines of brick and wood (we have Muslim and Christian neighbors and who knows what else). Well, not always separated by brick and wood When a Pentecostal Church opened in a house a block or so away, a group went round the neighborhood singing and praying in tongues (maybe like we do processions or blessings ?).

As above, I wonder if this is to "demonstrate" happening peacefully what is already happening in the ME and places like my neighborhood - as a call for peaceful co-existence. After 9/11, two Muslim families were hounded out of my block; I would hope the same would not happen again, to Muslims, or Christians of any stripe, or others ...

Again, it's a fine line in one sense - I agree. In another sense, it just acknowledges openly what is already going in neighborhoods etc.

 

[Dorothea]

no prayers in Greek ... interesting.

It is a fine line, though in a sense is what happens in my neighborhood daily - except separated by lines of brick and wood (we have Muslim and Christian neighbors and who knows what else). Well, not always separated by brick and wood When a Pentecostal Church opened in a house a block or so away, a group went round the neighborhood singing and praying in tongues (maybe like we do processions or blessings ?).

As above, I wonder if this is to "demonstrate" happening peacefully what is already happening in the ME and places like my neighborhood - as a call for peaceful co-existence. After 9/11, two Muslim families were hounded out of my block; I would hope the same would not happen again, to Muslims, or Christians of any stripe, or others ...

Again, it's a fine line in one sense - I agree. In another sense, it just acknowledges openly what is already going in neighborhoods etc.

I have not seen that in any neighbors I've lived in. Yes, there are synagogues and churches and mosques around our neighborhoods, but I have not seen any interfaith praying and celebrating a liturgy, worship service, jewish praying and worship, muslim prayers and worship together with other groups that aren't of their own faith. So, I do not see it the same. It's always been separated because it's just common fact that each community holds their own beliefs and so they do not join in other community's beliefs/worship/prayer. I am not saying we shouldn't love our non Christian neighbors. Far from it. There is, as I said and you agreed, a fine line, and it needs to be adhered to, especially when you have a leader of a large flock for which you are the example for them to follow (Pope, Patriarch, etc.).

I understand you see this as just showing Christian love. I think this can be done without joining up in interfaith prayers. It has been done without doing that. Sure, I see what you're saying on this being an example that peace can happen among all groups of different religions. I understand what the Pope was and is trying to do, but there is still this border for which he and our Patriarch are walking very close to if not on the line trying to balance, that I think needs to be recognized and kept in mind, and then watch how this progresses over time. If it bears fruit, then that would be a good thing. If it doesn't and leads to other things that take us over that border, of course, it would not be good.

 

[Thekla]

I have not seen that in any neighbors I've lived in. Yes, there are synagogues and churches and mosques around our neighborhoods, but I have not seen any interfaith praying and celebrating a liturgy, worship service, jewish praying and worship, muslim prayers and worship together with other groups that aren't of their own faith. So, I do not see it the same. It's always been separated because it's just common fact that each community holds their own beliefs and so they do not join in other community's beliefs/worship/prayer. I am not saying we shouldn't love our non Christian neighbors. Far from it. There is, as I said and you agreed, a fine line, and it needs to be adhered to, especially when you have a leader of a large flock for which you are the example for them to follow (Pope, Patriarch, etc.).

What I meant is, we are praying side by side with other faiths though we are separated by a street or the walls of a house. This is how I understood what is going on - that these are not inter-faith prayers (praying together) of Christians, Jews, Muslims but different faiths praying side by side so to speak.

I understand you see this as just showing Christian love. I think this can be done without joining up in interfaith prayers. It has been done without doing that. Sure, I see what you're saying on this being an example that peace can happen among all groups of different religions. I understand what the Pope was and is trying to do, but there is still this border for which he and our Patriarch are walking very close to if not on the line trying to balance, that I think needs to be recognized and kept in mind, and then watch how this progresses over time. If it bears fruit, then that would be a good thing. If it doesn't and leads to other things that take us over that border, of course, it would not be good.

If they are praying together with one another, inter-faith prayers, that is something that would truly upset me. If they pray their own prayers in proximity with one another, that is another. I guess I'm not clear on whether these are inter-faith prayers.

In my neighborhood, we don't pray together (inter-faith) but as many of us who do pray (of various faiths) pray 'next to' each other in our homes. Or in a restaurant, when we pray before our meal ...

I guess I need to be clear on which it is.

Maybe this will make sense:
praying with someone is not the same as praying next to someone.
I would not feel comfortable with sending my children to a school or event where there was a common chapel or prayer service, as the prayers form us and our understanding, and I wouldn't necessarily feel okay with having them pray using non-EO prayers. Otoh, when we pray before eating in a restaurant, if another family is praying also I do not understand that as praying together per se.