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Blessed-one

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um, so once a person's dead, does he go to heaven or hell immediately or "sleeps" in an unconscious state till the second return of Jesus?

if the person goes to heaven or hell immediately, then does that mean he's been judged already? what about the judgement of sheep and goat when Jesus comes back? does that mean that the dead person'll be judged twice? i'm a bit confused here.
 
Originally posted by Blessed-one
um, so once a person's dead, does he go to heaven or hell immediately or "sleeps" in an unconscious state till the second return of Jesus?

if the person goes to heaven or hell immediately, then does that mean he's been judged already? what about the judgement of sheep and goat when Jesus comes back? does that mean that the dead person'll be judged twice? i'm a bit confused here.

Since Christ did not yet return (or if he did not yet return), you can't go to heaven because there is no heaven...i.e. He is going to prepare a place for us, and when He returns, He will take us there with Him.

 
 
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Tallyn

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Originally posted by Blessed-one
um, so once a person's dead, does he go to heaven or hell immediately or "sleeps" in an unconscious state till the second return of Jesus?

if the person goes to heaven or hell immediately, then does that mean he's been judged already? what about the judgement of sheep and goat when Jesus comes back? does that mean that the dead person'll be judged twice? i'm a bit confused here.

Since Christ has yet to come we go to what is called "Hades". Check out the parable of the Rich Man & Lazarus (Luke 16:19).
Upon Christ's return, everyone living on earth -and in Hades- will be judged by their faith and by their works (2 Corinth 5:10)(Ecc 12:14)(James 2:14)

Revelation 20:11-13
11 Then I saw a great white throne and the one who sat on it; the earth and the heaven fled from his presence, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Also another book was opened, the book of life. And the dead were judged according to their works, as recorded in the books. 13 And the sea gave up the dead that were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and all were judged according to what they had done.

-Tallyn
 
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George777

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When Christians die now, they can be sure to enter heaven rightaway. Just before Jesus died on the cross, he said to one of the criminals hanging on the cross: "TODAY you shall be with me in paradise". The apostle Paul knew that He would be with Christ after his death. Christ is in heaven, so christians will be in heaven immediately after their death.

Philippians 1:23 For I am hard pressed between the two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better.

The Lazarus story was from before Christ had died, the situation now is different.
 
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Tallyn

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Originally posted by George777
When Christians die now, they can be sure to enter heaven rightaway. Just before Jesus died on the cross, he said to one of the criminals hanging on the cross: "TODAY you shall be with me in paradise". The apostle Paul knew that He would be with Christ after his death. Christ is in heaven, so christians will be in heaven immediately after their death.
The Lazarus story was from before Christ had died, the situation now is different.

Did you not read the quote from Revelation in my post earlier?

Revelation 20:11-13
11 Then I saw a great white throne and the one who sat on it; the earth and the heaven fled from his presence, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Also another book was opened, the book of life. And the dead were judged according to their works, as recorded in the books. 13 And the sea gave up the dead that were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and all were judged according to what they had done.

Is it not clear that those in Hades will be judged at the Great White Throne Judgement which happens at Christ's second coming?

It seems quite obvious that nobody is admitted into heaven until Christ returns.

Or, do you believe that the Great White Throne judgement as spoken about in Reveleation took place on the cross?

Tallyn
 
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Patmosman_sga

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When Christ arose from the dead, all the "dead in Christ"--past, present and future--arose with him. In other words, Christ's resurrection settled once and for all the question of the destiny of the righteous (as well as the wicked). We speak of the "general resurrection" as "yet to come" because the final outworking of the resurrection is still a work in progress.

By faith, we have the assurance that all the saints who have died have entered into (or are at least moving toward) the eternity of life and peace that is theirs in Christ and will be ours, also, with them both at death and at the final consummation of the ages.
 
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Tallyn

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Originally posted by Patmosman_sga
When Christ arose from the dead, all the "dead in Christ"--past, present and future--arose with him. In other words, Christ's resurrection settled once and for all the question of the destiny of the righteous (as well as the wicked). We speak of the "general resurrection" as "yet to come" because the final outworking of the resurrection is still a work in progress.

By faith, we have the assurance that all the saints who have died have entered into (or are at least moving toward) the eternity of life and peace that is theirs in Christ and will be ours, also, with them both at death and at the final consummation of the ages.

My question would then be:

Why is there another judgement (ie White Throne Judgement) mentioned in Revelation (after Christ died and rose)? And why is Hades mentioned?

-A
 
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Patmosman_sga

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Revelation is history from the perpspective of eternity. God has decreed from before the foundation of the world that the righteous shall dwell with him forever and the wicked shall suffer eternal torment. So, in one sense, the judgment spoken of in Revelation (and elsewhere) has already taken place in that it is already conceived and known in the mind of God who will enter into his kingdom and who will be cast out, not in the predestinarian sense (I'm not a Calvinist) but in the sense of divine foreknowledge. God knows who will be saved and who will be lost simply because he's God and he has known the destiny of every person before any person was ever born.

As long as we are confined to the temporal realm, we will be limited in our understanding of the things of eternity. Hence, we will ask questions such as the one which is the subject of this thread. That is well and good. But we run into trouble when we try to answer such questions by imposing human reasoning upon the product of divine inspiration. Revelation is God's view of history with the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ being the decisive act which establishes once for all the standard by which the whole world was, is, and shall be judged. The cross is the climax of history, for nothing that happened before, nothing that has happened since, and nothing that will happen in generations to come can escape its shadow. The destiny of every man and woman hinges on how each one responds to what God has done at Calvary. Accept his offer of forgiveness and enter with Christ into the joy of his eternal kingdom; or reject his offer of forgiveness and be cast into the fiery lake of burning sulfur with devil and all his angels to be tormented day and night, forever and ever.

The cross and judgment seat are one and the same.
 
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Originally posted by Patmosman_sga
Revelation is history from the perpspective of eternity.

It is history from our perspective...and it's someone else's mail:

"John to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace, from HIm who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven Spirits who are before His throne"
 
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Patmosman_sga

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Originally posted by Frank
It is history from our perspective...and it's someone else's mail:

"John to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace, from HIm who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven Spirits who are before His throne"

You make a self-contradictory statement. "Our perspective" is 21st century Western post-modernism. That is hardly the perspective of the first century Jew who wrote the book and the first century Near Easterners to whom he originally wrote. The events described in Revelation were of immediate concern to its original audience. But those events in the temporal realm (the fall of Jerusalem, the destruction of the Temple, etc.) were God's means of pointing to the deeper reality of the eternal realm. What may have seemed through the eyes of the world to be nothing more than the overthrow of an insignificant Middle Eastern city is revealed, from God's perspective, to be absolute, final and decisive retribution upon God's own people for their rejection of his Anointed One. The eternal truth conveyed through the apocalyptic language of Revelation is every bit as relevant and applicable today as it was in the first century. For the same fate which befell first century Jerusalem awaits anyone and everyone who likewise rejects God's decisive revelation of himself in Jesus Christ; and the same vindication which finally came for the first century believers will be likewise shared by anyone and everyone who, in the face of tribulation and persecution at the hands of a hostile world, perseveres in faith to the end.
 
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Originally posted by Patmosman_sga
You make a self-contradictory statement. "Our perspective" is 21st century Western post-modernism. That is hardly the perspective of the first century Jew who wrote the book and the first century Near Easterners to whom he originally wrote. The events described in Revelation were of immediate concern to its original audience. But those events in the temporal realm (the fall of Jerusalem, the destruction of the Temple, etc.) were God's means of pointing to the deeper reality of the eternal realm. What may have seemed through the eyes of the world to be nothing more than the overthrow of an insignificant Middle Eastern city is revealed, from God's perspective, to be absolute, final and decisive retribution upon God's own people for their rejection of his Anointed One. The eternal truth conveyed through the apocalyptic language of Revelation is every bit as relevant and applicable today as it was in the first century. For the same fate which befell first century Jerusalem awaits anyone and everyone who likewise rejects God's decisive revelation of himself in Jesus Christ; and the same vindication which finally came for the first century believers will be likewise shared by anyone and everyone who, in the face of tribulation and persecution at the hands of a hostile world, perseveres in faith to the end.

I wasn't discussing a "cultural perspective"...I guess I wasn't clear.  I meant to say "from our perspective, the book of Revelation is history (i.e. past, already happened)". 

I am confused about your reference to the vindication that will be shared by everyone who rejects Christ".  You mean vindication in the same sense of what jews experienced at the hands of Titus, or in a different way?  Do you see a "double" meaning in the book of Revelation?
 
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Chloe

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Originally posted by Tallyn
My question would then be:

Why is there another judgement (ie White Throne Judgement) mentioned in Revelation (after Christ died and rose)? And why is Hades mentioned?

-A

 

Those in Hades now, are those awaiting judgment before the Great White Throne of Judgment, before which ONLY the unsaved will stand. All those who are saved will stand before the Bema seat of Christ. All those that die in Christ will be with Him, in heaven.  In the scriptures Paul states that he was torn between wanting to stay on this earth and being with Christ which is far better.

Abraham's Bosom is empty. 
 
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Originally posted by Chloe
 

Those in Hades now, are those awaiting judgment before the Great White Throne of Judgment, before which ONLY the unsaved will stand. All those who are saved will stand before the Bema seat of Christ. All those that die in Christ will be with Him, in heaven.  In the scriptures Paul states that he was torn between wanting to stay on this earth and being with Christ which is far better.

Abraham's Bosom is empty. 

I don't know about this...it sounds like you are ignoring what Revelation says, which is CLEARLY that ALL PEOPLE (dead until that point in time) will stand in judgment before the great white throne of judgment.  Where does it say that "only the unsaved will stand" before the throne? 
 
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Tallyn

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Originally posted by Chloe
Verse?

3rd reply to this thread:

Revelation 20:11-13
11 Then I saw a great white throne and the one who sat on it; the earth and the heaven fled from his presence, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Also another book was opened, the book of life. And the dead were judged according to their works, as recorded in the books. 13 And the sea gave up the dead that were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and all were judged according to what they had done.

What is this "bema" seat, and where is it mentioned in the Bible?

Tallyn
 
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The Great White Throne judgement the way I understand it will take place after the 1,000 year reign of Christ, after the Tribulation, and will only be for those that did not accept Christ during their lifetime. Christians will be judged at the Judgement Seat of Christ for their works. Getting into heaven will not be an issue at either one of these judgements.

Rom 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

Rev, chapter 20 speaks of the Great White Throne judgement
 
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Originally posted by g_1933
The Great White Throne judgement the way I understand it will take place after the 1,000 year reign of Christ, after the Tribulation, and will only be for those that did not accept Christ during their lifetime. Christians will be judged at the Judgement Seat of Christ for their works. Getting into heaven will not be an issue at either one of these judgements.

Rom 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

Rev, chapter 20 speaks of the Great White Throne judgement

You guys just don't cease to amaze me!  I just quoted scripture to show that ALL PEOPLE (that died until that point in time) will stand before the judgment throne, and you keep posting the same stuff over and over.  Please show me where does the bible say what you just said? (what's the difference between the "great white throne judgment" and "the judgment seat of Christ").  How many judgments are people going through?  Show me bible, not tradition...
 
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