What would it take for Orthodoxs to come under Pope

[RMDY]

Look, I'm just quoting from a book here. And I honestly believe the Pope, during the first Crusade, exploited the Roman Catholic Church for political gain.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Hey,

I have an honest question

Where did you get "Luke 21:28 and these things beginning to happen bend yourselves back, and lift up your heads, because the redemption/apo-lutrwsiV <629> of You doth draw nigh/eggizei <1448> (5719).' " from with all the numbers and language-y thingies?

Hi. I read mainly thru greek/hebrew interlinears word-for-word as I feel it gives me a more accurate reading of the Scriptures.
Daniel 11 for example almost requires it and I prefer reading the OC Hebrew Scriptures word-for-word as it was originally spoken/written.

http://www.scripture4all.org/

eggizei<1448> (5719), Used only 2 times in NC:

Luke 12:33 sell your goods!, and be giving alms!, make to yourselves bags! no being aged, a treasure unfailing in the heavens. The where thief not is-nearing/eggizei<1448> (5719), nor moth causing-decay;

Luke 21:28 Beginning yet, the-these, to be becoming, up-bend ye!, and on-lift ye!, the heads of ye, thru-that is nearing/eggizei <1448> (5719) the from-loosing/apo-lutrwsiV <629> of ye

Luke 21:28 arcomenwn <756> (5734) {Beggining} de <1161> {YET} toutwn <5130> {THE THESE} ginesqai <1096> (5738) {TO BE BECOMING} anakuyate <352> (5657) {UP-BEND} kai <2532> {AND} eparate <1869> (5657) {ON-LIFT} taV <3588> {THE} kefalaV <2776> {HEADS} umwn <5216> {OF YE} dioti <1360> {THRU THAT} eggizei <1448> (5719) {IS NEARING} h <3588> {THE} apolutrwsiV <629> {FROM-LOOSING}umwn <5216> {OF YE}

 

[Asinner]

see below

 

[Asinner]

History is a matter of interpretation. We must be careful, especially, when we interpret motives.

 

[WarriorAngel]

Look, I'm just quoting from a book here. And I honestly believe the Pope, during the first Crusade, exploited the Roman Catholic Church for political gain.

If I might suggest you get over your bias to actually read the first and ALL the crusades.

Evidently you didnt concentrate and only pulled out what you thought were political plays.

Seriously, the first crusade was in aid of the Eastern Church [Byzantine]

Muslims were killing them til near extinction. AND I may be wrong, since it has been some time now since I read them, but I do believe the Muslims took over their Churches too.

ANYWAY, you could NOT have read them entirely or accurately or you would have seen where the Pope was quite adamnant not to kill for the sake of killing.

Then again, maybe it was the source you retrieved your reading from that might have made you biased.

 

[RMDY]

I didn't pull out of anything. Secondly, I have never believed the Pope can forgive sins. Anyone who believes this hasn't read Scripture right. Only forgiveness of sins was given to certain individuals who went forth to do it when Jesus gave them authority.

So, to say, when a pope says:

"ok, go and kill" by saying your sins will be forgiven, to me, is a contradicting statement.

I believe the motive to stop the Muslims from overruning christians was good, but, it was made political and twisted to serve the Empires imperialistic goals for power.

 

[RMDY]

Jesus taught us to love our enemies not kill them over land. Early church fathers didn't go around killing Romans because they were persecuting Christians. Early church fathers told us to love our enemies, reflecting statements Jesus had made before.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I didn't pull out of anything. Secondly, I have never believed the Pope can forgive sins. Anyone who believes this hasn't read Scripture right. Only forgiveness of sins was given to certain individuals who went forth to do it when Jesus gave them authority.

So, to say, when a pope says:

"ok, go and kill" by saying your sins will be forgiven, to me, is a contradicting statement.

I believe the motive to stop the Muslims from overruning christians was good, but, it was made political and twisted to serve the Empires imperialistic goals for power.

Hi and interesting post and that is probably one of the reasons the Orthodox do not recognize the Pope as the "Vicar of Christ".
I also tried to bury the hatchet with the Muslims concerning Paul

http://foru.ms/t4410009-can-muhammad-and-paul-be-buddies.html

can-muhammad-and-paul-be-buddies

 

[E.C.]

Muslims were killing them til near extinction. AND I may be wrong, since it has been some time now since I read them, but I do believe the Muslims took over their Churches too.

Yes, they did. In fact, when the Eastern Roman Empire fell in 1453, the Turks turned the Hagia Sophia into a mosque. Now it is a museum.

Mosques are very similar to Orthodox churches by design because instead of burning and having to build a new building; why not just strip it and make it your own instead?

I didn't pull out of anything. Secondly, I have never believed the Pope can forgive sins. Anyone who believes this hasn't read Scripture right. Only forgiveness of sins was given to certain individuals who went forth to do it when Jesus gave them authority.

The only ones that say somebody other than Christ can forgive a man of his sins are Protestants that spread propaganda of anti-Catholicism and/or anti-Orthodoxy. Any clergy that says "I can forgive sins" has misunderstood their job description and should not be clergy.

 

[disasm]

How about this:

"Thirty-seven years after the crucifixion in A.D. 70, the Roman army of eighty thousand hardened combat veterens under Titus beseiged the city of Jersalem. No one in...no one out. According to Josephus, approximatel 1.1 million Jews died in this seige.

This is a ridiculous mis-representation of history. Are you aware Christians at this time were persecuted by Rome, not running Rome? If I recall my Roman history correctly, the Jews started a rebellion, the Roman soldiers ended it. They didn't kill the Jews because of their religion, but for social reasons. Either way, Christians had nothing to do with this, unless you can prove a conspiracy theory that prior to Constantine, Roman army's were secretly under Christian control, but considering the reign of Nero, that would be rather difficult to prove. Read up on Polycarp and his martyrdom to understand the hatred Rome had for Christians.

Many Gentile believers fled the city and went to Pella, a city sixty miles northeast of Jesusalem. The physical separation of Gentile and Jewish followers of Christ had begun and would never be restored. The Jews saw the Gentiles's leaving as an act of betrayal.

The Jews didn't recognize the Gentiles as having any affiliation or comorodary whatsoever. Look at Peter, a previous Jew and Christian's view of Gentiles before his vision.

The permanent separation of Jews and Gentiles occured in one day with the historic document when Constatine signed the Edict of Toleration, also known as the Edict of Milan, in A.D. 313, officially recognizing Christianity as the state religion. The Roman Church grew in power until it ruled most of the known world through Papal States.

You misunderstand the Edict of Milan. Yes, later on Christianity was declared the state religion, but the Edict of Milan merely ended the persecution of Christians.

The rest I'm not knowledgeable in. I'll let someone else handle those.

Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me the sinner.

 

[Rhamiel]

the Pope did not controll the crusades, the Pope sent the nobles and they ran the show, the kings and knights ruled the middle ages, the Pope was a counter balance

 

[RMDY]

This is a ridiculous mis-representation of history. Are you aware Christians at this time were persecuted by Rome, not running Rome? If I recall my Roman history correctly, the Jews started a rebellion, the Roman soldiers ended it. They didn't kill the Jews because of their religion, but for social reasons. Either way, Christians had nothing to do with this, unless you can prove a conspiracy theory that prior to Constantine, Roman army's were secretly under Christian control, but considering the reign of Nero, that would be rather difficult to prove. Read up on Polycarp and his martyrdom to understand the hatred Rome had for Christians.

I didn't say Christians had anything to do with it. I was quoting an author who said Christians fled the city while it happened.

 

[Vasileios]

Same author who doesn't know what the edict of Milan was?

 

[E.C.]

Is this the same author that says Constantine was a sun-worshiper and violently imposed Christianity upon the masses as well as killing thousands so that he could use Christianity to control the Roman Empire?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Many Gentile believers fled the city and went to Pella, a city sixty miles northeast of Jesusalem. The physical separation of Gentile and Jewish followers of Christ had begun and would never be restored. The Jews saw the Gentiles's leaving as an act of betrayal.

The Jews didn't recognize the Gentiles as having any affiliation or comorodary whatsoever. Look at Peter, a previous Jew and Christian's view of Gentiles before his vision.

I didn't quite understand what he was saying either.
There were many "Israelites" that were non-"Judean" celebrating the passover.

I also believe Revelation is depicting that event, whether literally or symbolically and would like to ask Orthodoxs and Catholics if that is also their view. Thanks and peace.
Steve

John 11:48 "If we let Him alone like this, everyone will believe in Him, and the Romans will come and take-away of us and the Place and the Nation."

Reve 6:6 and I heard a voice in the midst of the four living creatures saying, `A measure of wheat for a Denary, and three measures of barley for a Denary,' and `The oil and the wine thou mayest not injure.'

http://www.davieapostolicchurch.com/studies/destuct/

The day on which Titus encompassed Jerusalem, was the feast of the Passover. At this season multitudes came up from all the surrounding country, and from distant parts, to keep the festival and the city was at this time crowded with Jewish strangers, and foreigners from all parts, so that the whole nation may be considered as having been shut up in one prison,..........

.......The Temple now presented little more than a heap of ruins ; and the Roman army as in triumph on the event,

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I forgot all about this thread.......

 

[vanshan]

Thanks for bringing it back up.

Did anyone say it would take the apostacy of all 250 million Orthodox Christians worldwide?

Basil

 

[vanshan]

Thanks for bringing it back up.

Did anyone say it would take the apostacy of all 250 million Orthodox Christians worldwide?

Basil

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Thanks for bringing it back up.

Did anyone say it would take the apostacy of all 250 million Orthodox Christians worldwide?

Basil

Perhaps the first apostasy of the Orthodox exposed that mysterious "man of the sin" in 2 thess.

2 Thess 2:3 No any ye should be deluding according to no yet one manner/way, that if-ever no may be coming the apostasy/apo-stasia <646> first.
And may be being un-covered the Man of the Sin, the Son of the destruction/apwleiaV <684>.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by JacktheCatholic
Sure... you can join Orthodox Catholicism. So long as it is Catholicism.

Isn't that kind of like mixing "dirt and water" together? And what does that make? That appears to be what the Orthodox are implying. Luther would have made a good Orthodox LOL.

http://www.glaird.com/luth-heb.htm

"If I were younger I would want to learn this language [i.e. Hebrew], for without it one can never properly understand the Holy Scripture&#8230;. For that reason they have said correctly:

'The Jews drink out of the original spring, The Greeks drink out of the stream flowing out of the stream, The Latins, however, out of the puddle.'"16