What would it take for Orthodoxs to come under Pope

[MariaRegina]

First of all, you will need to define what the church actually is.. because if your definition of the church of God is lacking, or incorrect, then your premise is lacking and incorrect.

So, please tell us what the church of God is..?

THEN.. how does Christ's church SAVE..

You mentioned that it's through sacraments.. although the scriptures simply declare that we are SAVED by GRACE through FAITH.. nothing at all about being saved by sacraments..

SO.. why would you teach that it is through sacraments when the scriptures teach contrary to that..?

FIRST, the sacraments were instituted by Christ our Lord and GOD to impart Grace, through which we are saved.

SECOND, the Church is the Body of Christ. It is composed of all the members of Christ's Body, both those alive on this earth and those who have fallen asleep with Christ and hence are alive with Christ in Heaven.

Who is in the Church, we don't know because we don't know the hearts of men.

Where is the Church? We can tell by the presence of valid Apostolic succession and whether that particular church bears good fruit.

 

[sunlover1]

FIRST, the sacraments were instituted by Christ our Lord and GOD to impart Grace, through which we are saved.

SECOND, the Church is the Body of Christ. It is composed of all the members of Christ's Body, both those alive on this earth and those who have fallen asleep with Christ and hence are alive with Christ in Heaven.

Who is in the Church, we don't know because we don't know the hearts of men.

Where is the Church? We can tell by the presence of valid Apostolic succession and whether that particular church bears good fruit.

Hi aria, enjoying your posts

Valid Apostolic succession??

So I am not part of His body (the church)
since I am not interested and don't
believe in apostolic succession?

Please advise.
sunlover

 

[Markea]

FIRST, the sacraments were instituted by Christ our Lord and GOD to impart Grace, through which we are saved.

Could you show us where in the word of God that we are saved through sacraments..?

AND why on earth would the word of God say that we are SAVED by GRACE through FAITH..?

SECOND, the Church is the Body of Christ. It is composed of all the members of Christ's Body, both those alive on this earth and those who have fallen asleep with Christ and hence are alive with Christ in Heaven.

Who is in the Church, we don't know because we don't know the hearts of men.

Where is the Church? We can tell by the presence of valid Apostolic succession and whether that particular church bears good fruit.

How do you know what VALID APOSTOLIC SUCCESSION is..? Do you decide for yourself.. ?

How does that work..?

Do you have apostles in your assembly..? How do you know that they're valid..?

 

[E.C.]

Apostolic Succession in a nutshell: succession from the Apostles (Peter, Paul, Bartholomew, etc etc).

When the Apostles were traveling around city to city, they would appoint someone to oversee the spiritual well-being of the faithful in that city. These are the bishops. The Apostles appointed them via the laying of hands as is described in (I believe) Acts and a number of the Epistles. When the bishop neared the end of his days, he did the same thing: appointed via the laying of hands. This has continued generation to generation and is still the case today in the Orthodox Church where a new bishop in consecrated a bishop by about three other bishops nearby him.

The Roman Catholic Church, Eastern Rite Catholics, Eastern and Oriental Orthodox have valid Apostolic Succession because of the never-ending line of laying of hands. I believe that most (if not all) of the Anglican Churches have valid Succession as well. Some Lutheran Churches can also claim this.

Markea, I do have one question for you: can you show me the verse that states Christ's skin color?

 

[ma2000]

Well, with respect to SALVATION, my bible says that I am SAVED by GRACE through FAITH..

What does your bible say..? Does it say something different..?

Can you show us where your bible says that the CHURCH saves people..?

First, I think you can agree that even if there was nothing about it in the Bible, the church saves people by spreading the word of God to people that were not Christians.
Second, if there weren't different interpretations of the Bible, there wouldn't be so many denominations.
Third, if you were almost sinless, you probably wouldn't need the church. There is written in the Bible that through faith, you can move mountains. Can you do that? I can't. And that is why I need the church.

I wanted to emphasise that many can believe differently than you, even though all parties can claim support of the Bible.

The aim of the Christian life is to have the Holy Spirit. And the Holy Spirit can be received through sacraments.
You can read this long, but very good article:
http://www.fatheralexander.org/booklets/english/sermon_st_seraphim.htm

We don't know whether people outside of church are saved or not. For example someone living on a remote island where no word about Christ has ever arrived. But for those of us in the church who can't move mountains through faith, the only hope for aquiring the Holy Spirit is within church. For me, that would be The Orthodox Church.

 

[MariaRegina]

Markea, I didn't say that the sacraments save. To suggest that would be to suggest that they are magical, like witchcraft.

No. The sacraments in themselves do not save.

However, the sacraments are Holy Mysteries which were instituted by Christ our God to impart His Saving Grace.

Should we poke fun at the Holy Sacraments. NO.

It is very interesting that most protestants will never poke fun at the Bible, but Christ did not write the Bible, instead the Church, His Bride, gave us the Holy Bible.

However, Christ did give us the Sacraments, one of which is the Lord's Supper.

Have you studied John 6? ever? Really?

[bible]John 6[/bible]

 

[sunlover1]

But for those of us in the church who can't move mountains through faith, the only hope for aquiring the Holy Spirit is within church.

I read in the Bible where Jesus said that God
would give His Holy Spirit to "those who ask for it".

So, wouldnt it be 'after' receiving the Holy Spirit
that you'd 'then' be part of the church?

But ye are not in the flesh,
but in the Spirit,
if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you.
Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ,
he is none of his. http://foru.ms/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=5805969#_ftn1
http://foru.ms/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=5805969#_ftnref1

 

[Markea]

Markea, I do have one question for you: can you show me the verse that states Christ's skin color?

I can say that He was born of Jewish lineage.. that's obvious in the scriptures.. although I fail to see any point which you may be trying to establish by asking me what color skin He had..

 

[Markea]

Markea, I didn't say that the sacraments save.

I think that you did.. you said this..

the sacraments were instituted by Christ our Lord and GOD to impart Grace, through which we are saved.

 

[ma2000]

I read in the Bible where Jesus said that God
would give His Holy Spirit to "those who ask for it".

So, wouldnt it be 'after' receiving the Holy Spirit
that you'd 'then' be part of the church?

But ye are not in the flesh,
but in the Spirit,
if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you.
Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ,
he is none of his. http://foru.ms/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=5805969#_ftn1
http://foru.ms/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=5805969#_ftnref1

Babies can receive the Holy Spirit and they are too young to even speak.

When entering the church, you are baptised and receive the Holy Spirit.
Those who received the Holy Spirit can also loose it. Like most of us do.
Please read the article.

 

[E.C.]

I can say that He was born of Jewish lineage.. that's obvious in the scriptures.. although I fail to see any point which you may be trying to establish by asking me what color skin He had..

The point: not every last thing is in the Bible. Especially information on the early Christians in regards to how they worshiped.

I believe that it was in John where he said that not all the books in the world could contain all that Christ did for the people when He walked the earth in those days. Now, why then would people think that everything about the early Christians would be in the Bible? Especially when we consider the following.

-Not even everything about Christ is in the Bible.
-the Christians were under constant persecution so any written texts about worship would not be a good idea to have because "the enemy", so to say, would try to take them and then take a stance similar to "Na na na na na na! Try to get this now!"
-Why write down the formula on how to worship when it was lived all around? Eastern Mediterranean/European culture does not call for change unlike Western culture.

 

[MariaRegina]

Originally Posted by Aria
Markea, I didn't say that the sacraments save.

I think that you did.. you said this..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aria
the sacraments were instituted by Christ our Lord and GOD to impart Grace, through which we are saved.

Markea, you have highlighted the wrong referent. You should have highlighted 'grace'.

The sacraments were instituted by Christ our Lord and GOD to impart Grace, through which we are saved.


Notice the restrictive clause, "through which we are saved," This restrictive clause modifies 'grace,' not 'sacraments.'


It is through grace, the Divine Energies of God Himself, that we are saved. Apart from that Grace, we are nothing, for God's grace sustains us and the entire universe.

 

[ma2000]

I can say that He was born of Jewish lineage.. that's obvious in the scriptures.. although I fail to see any point which you may be trying to establish by asking me what color skin He had..

The Ethiopian Jews have black skin.
He might be emphasising the importance of Tradition.

 

[E.C.]

I think that you did.. you said this..

[/size][/font]

Actually, that just means that if you are saved than it is via Christ and the sacraments (because Christ instituted the sacraments).

It does not mean that the sacraments in themselves save.

Impart: to share, to give.

Thus the sacraments are meant to share or give the Grace of the Holy Spirit to the believer from God. I think that is what Aria was saying.

 

[Markea]

First, I think you can agree that even if there was nothing about it in the Bible, the church saves people by spreading the word of God to people that were not Christians.

I think that the scriptures are clear that some plant, and that some water, but that it is GOD that gives the increase.

Second, if there weren't different interpretations of the Bible, there wouldn't be so many denominations.
Third, if you were almost sinless, you probably wouldn't need the church. There is written in the Bible that through faith, you can move mountains. Can you do that? I can't. And that is why I need the church.

There's only ONE CHURCH, regardless of denominational affiliation or creed.. your assembly is no different than any other in that respect.

With respect to your comments concerning sinlessness.. there's not a member of the church who is not sinless.. practically at least.. positionally I'd say that we're sinless because of the perfect redemptive work of Christ.. ie, we're imputed with His righteousness if we're truly in Christ, members of His body.

As for moving mountains.. I'd say that the Lord was speaking mostly metaphorically here.. not that He cannot move physical mountains.. but rather that He can move the mountains in our lives which represent huge obstacles.. etc..

I wanted to emphasise that many can believe differently than you, even though all parties can claim support of the Bible.

That's fine, as long as we're not making claims that are contrary to the bible..

We don't know whether people outside of church are saved or not. For example someone living on a remote island where no word about Christ has ever arrived. But for those of us in the church who can't move mountains through faith, the only hope for aquiring the Holy Spirit is within church. For me, that would be The Orthodox Church.

The LORD says this..

[bible]Luke 11:13[/bible]

So, where in the world do you get that the only hope for you aquiring the Holy Spirit is through the Orthodox church..?

 

[MariaRegina]

Again, Markea, have you taken the time to really study John 6 posted above?

The whole purpose of the church is to celebrate the Lord's Supper, but only those who are baptized and chrismated members of the Church who have recently received Holy Confession and also have a valid Marriage can receive the Holy Eucharist.

So the Church exists to serve us Holy Communion, so that we can receive the Precious Body and Blood of our God and thus attain life eternal (salvation).

 

[MariaRegina]

Actually, that just means that if you are saved than it is via Christ and the sacraments (because Christ instituted the sacraments).

It does not mean that the sacraments in themselves save.

Impart: to share, to give.

Thus the sacraments are meant to share or give the Grace of the Holy Spirit to the believer from God. I think that is what Aria was saying.

It is through Grace that we are saved.

The Sacraments are vehicles of that Grace.

However, a lonely man on an Island who has no access to the Church, can be saved through Grace, because God is not limited by His Sacraments, otherwise, few would be saved.

 

[E.C.]

It is through Grace that we are saved.

The Sacraments are vehicles of that Grace.

However, a lonely man on an Island who has no access to the Church, can be saved through Grace, because God is not limited by His Sacraments, otherwise, few would be saved.

Was I close?

 

[sunlover1]

Babies can receive the Holy Spirit and they are too young to even speak.

When entering the church, you are baptised and receive the Holy Spirit.
Those who received the Holy Spirit can also loose it. Like most of us do.
Please read the article.

So you're saying that if we're baptised we receive
the Holy Spirit.
IOW, if we're dunked or sprinkled, we then have
God's Spirit?

I'm not interested in the article, but thank you.
Not being rude, just that if the author of the article
were here sharing and discussing, that would be
different, but it's not him, but us rather who are
discussing.

I am interested and curious for your thoughts.
sunlover

 

[MariaRegina]

Actually, that just means that if you are saved than it is via Christ and the sacraments (because Christ instituted the sacraments).

It does not mean that the sacraments in themselves save.

Impart: to share, to give.

Thus the sacraments are meant to share or give the Grace of the Holy Spirit to the believer from God. I think that is what Aria was saying.

Was I close?

of course

But the study of English is important ... very important in debates of this sort.

We have to understand referents.